New year holidays - water pressure goes UP

[flipper2222222]

some time ago I posted this topic about low water pressure at home.

as I am in Thailand infrequently I have just been dealing with the lack of water pressure for now. 

 

Strangely today the water pressure increased substantially. 

does anyone know is it possible that because of the population exodus from BKK the pressure in water inside the house would increase?

or is it just a coincidence?

thanks in advance. 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

25 minutes ago, flipper2222222 said:

does anyone know is it possible that because of the population exodus from BKK the pressure in water inside the house would increase?

Of course it can. Fewer users = more supply available.

 

Just try using the internet at about 6pm to 8pm on a school day and you will find the reverse situation.

[JAS21]

46 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Of course it can. Fewer users = more supply available.

 

Just try using the internet at about 6pm to 8pm on a school day and you will find the reverse situation.

Ours hasn't ... they have reduced the pressure to save water ... something to do with salt getting into the raw water supply further upstream. Hope they restore it soon as our pump is still disconnected from when I moved the tank. Our water comes from Klong Prappa.

[wayned]

I live in the boonies with low water pressure all of the time.  Yesterday it went off completely all day.  Must have been all of the Bangkokians coming to see there families here in farm country.  The outages are normally caused by excessive irrigation lowing the water table but nothing is being irrigated now other than the excessive people.

[flipper2222222]

so if the water pressure coming from the street is so low, then would upgrading the electric water pump inside the home from 150W to 350W have no effect on the pressure inside the house?

 

I have no idea about how the water is setup, if we have mains pressure system here or how the water is pumped throughout the house

will attach some pics of the pump and water storage, 

thanks for any helpful responses. 

[flipper2222222]

the pics

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

so if the water pressure coming from the street is so low, then would upgrading the electric water pump inside the home from 150W to 350W have no effect on the pressure inside the house?

 

I have no idea about how the water is setup, if we have mains pressure system here or how the water is pumped throughout the house

will attach some pics of the pump and water storage, 

thanks for any helpful responses. 

The water pressure from the street should have absolutely no effect on the house pressure. If it does then your system has a bad design flaw.

 

Since you say that the New Year exodus has boosted the pressure in the house I’m virtually certain that you have a design or incorrectly open/closed valve problem.

 

First turn off the pump and check.

then turn off the main water from the street and turn the pump back on and check.

 

After that turn the mains supply back on and check both the house supply and while you have at least one outlet running go and check to see if your water meter is running backwards.

 

If with the supply from the street turned off you have better pressure, it’s a design or valve configuration problem.

 

in most manually switched systems at least 1 valve should be normally closed.

 

please report the results of the tests.

Edited January 2, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[flipper2222222]

thanks  very much for the follow up answer sometimewoodworker, I will try what you suggested and report back. We are away for about 8 days so will do on our return. 

 

another point of note is that the house in in a group of 16 double level townhouses, we went into one of the neighbors homes to check their setup and pressure. They have the same pump and water storage. Their pressure was even less than ours. every home appears to have their own water meter. We are in the Bang Khen area of Bangkok. House iis 9 years old. 

When using water in the house the pump is not activated, the pump runs after sometime, (not knowing how it really works) it seems like when the level of water drops in the storage unit the pump kicks in and raises the water level in the storage unit. But it still perplexes me how the water is pumped to the second floor. Can anyone spell it out the pump pressure process of this type of system? 

 

Hopefully the extra information is of some use. 

[chilly07]

Street pressure should fill the tank and the pump should pump water out of the tank into the house. If the pump is topping up the tank you would have no pressure in the house and the pump will burn out when the street supply is turned off

[grobec]

Above poster was correct. The street supply and pressure will fill your storage tank.

between the tank will be your auxiliary pump. 
CHECK 

you may have a valve that when open delivers street water directly to the house in case of power failure and if it is open during normal operation you may be pumping pressure back to the street.

 

as for pump size 350 watt or even up to 600w will definitely help with water pressure on the second floor.

THE PRESSURE OUTPUT (psi) of most wattages is virtually the same. Think of it as adding torque rather than rpm.

Edited January 2, 2020 by grobec

[grobec]

Spelling

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, grobec said:

Above poster was correct. The street supply and pressure will fill your storage tank.

between the tank will be your auxiliary pump. 
CHECK 

you may have a valve that when open delivers street water directly to the house in case of power failure and if it is open during normal operation you may be pumping pressure back to the street.

 

as for pump size 350 watt or even up to 600w will definitely help with water pressure on the second floor.

THE PRESSURE OUTPUT (psi) of most wattages is virtually the same. Think of it as adding torque rather than rpm.

It sounds as if the system is badly configured, If its as badly configured as I guess it is then a bigger pump will do virtually nothing at the moment.

4 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

When using water in the house the pump is not activated, the pump runs after sometime, (not knowing how it really works) it seems like when the level of water drops in the storage unit the pump kicks in and raises the water level in the storage unit. But it still perplexes me how the water is pumped to the second floor. Can anyone spell it out the pump pressure process of this type of system? 

your system layout or valves are badly screwed up.

 

it sounds as if your pump is on the wrong side of the tank so is illegally sucking water from the mains. It should activate every time you open a tap or run a shower. Do not just get another bigger pump until you have got the layout functioning correctly, it will probably not help, and just be a waste of money at this point.

 

Once you have got the system layout or valves correctly configgured you will be able to judge if you actually need a bigger pump or not.

 

You should take more pictures of the pump and pipes together with any stopcocks.

 

At the moment your pump is doing nothing to increase the pressure in the house.

Edited January 2, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[JAS21]

See if you can make a sketch of the layout of the pipe work including location of pump and tank.

 

At present ‘your helpers’ are working pretty well blind folded.

 

Also indicate where non-return valve’s are fitted and which way they are fitted...There should be an arrow on them pointing in the direction of flow.

 

then we can have some progress here...

Edited January 3, 2020 by JAS21

[flipper2222222]

thanks again for the helpful tips guys, When we return I will dismantle the numerous amount of mess (various household items) around the pump and tank so I can take some clear shots of the setup.

 

in regards to the PSI comment by grobec

17 hours ago, grobec said:

as for pump size 350 watt or even up to 600w will definitely help with water pressure on the second floor.

THE PRESSURE OUTPUT (psi) of most wattages is virtually the same. Think of it as adding torque rather than rpm.

when the system layout is corrected if needed, and buying a higher wattage pump, do you mean the pressure will stay the same but the flow (amount of water coming out of the output) will increase?

there is a small water heating unit on the second floor, i assume it is necessary to make sure the pump wattage\flow is not too  much for it?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

when the system layout is corrected if needed, and buying a higher wattage pump, do you mean the pressure will stay the same but the flow (amount of water coming out of the output) will increase?

there is a small water heating unit on the second floor, i assume it is necessary to make sure the pump wattage\flow is not too  much for it?

You can not have too much pressure for your water heater as all heaters have a pressure reduction control on the inlet side.

 

all the higher powered pumps have a higher output pressure as well as a higher maximum flow. Though from 250W the output pressure is constant just a higher possible flow.

 

The flow will almost certainly be constrained by your water pipes as they are virtually certain to be ½” unless you are very lucky.

 

 

However talking about a bigger pump when the one you have IS NOT actually doing anything at all for your house water pressure is, to say the least, putting the cart before the horse, you have no idea if you have any need to change your current one.

 

 

[flipper2222222]

hi everyone, I am going to upload some pics, hopefully they are clear enough to help with analysing the problem.  

 

I will try and run the checks that sometimewoodworker suggested later today, 

thanks to all again

[sometimewoodworker]

Those pictures seem to probably support a badly screwed up design, but it could be ok and just incorrectly switched stopcocks

 

I assume that your tank inlet is at the bottom (a little unusual but no problem).
 

The outlet from, or inlet to the tank is turned off, wrong configuration.

 

The pump should have a direct feed from the tank, it doesn’t look as if it has that.

 

Its really important that you can draw out the flow diagram and make sure you understand what each stopcock does and that the pump can and does come on each time you turn on a tap before throwing money at a new pump.

 

From your pictures it certainly is not clear what is going on. 
 

you should have at least one more stopcock near the meter, so you’re going to have to play with them tomorrow.

[flipper2222222]

Thanks again for your reply. 
 One point you made stood out to me.
 

Should the pump immediately turn on each time a tap is turned on and remain on until the tap is turned off ( thereby keeping the system under pressure)?
 

Currently the pump turns on about 5 seconds after a tap is turned on , stays on for about 4 seconds then stops, then after about 15 seconds of no pump activity it comes comes on for another 4 seconds.
All the while the shower on the first floor has been running.
Hope this helps.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

Thanks again for your reply. 
 One point you made stood out to me.
 

Should the pump immediately turn on each time a tap is turned on and remain on until the tap is turned off ( thereby keeping the system under pressure)?
 

Currently the pump turns on about 5 seconds after a tap is turned on , stays on for about 4 seconds then stops, then after about 15 seconds of no pump activity it comes comes on for another 4 seconds.
All the while the shower on the first floor has been running.
Hope this helps.

Try turning on several outlets at the same time. If the pattern of pump activity doesn’t change then there seems to be something wrong.

 

however have you done the tests I outlined earlier? 
if not, why not? You need all the results to get some reasonable idea of what is going on.

if you have what are the results?

Edited January 11, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[flipper2222222]

On 1/2/2020 at 1:48 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

First turn off the pump and check.

then turn off the main water from the street and turn the pump back on and check.

 

After that turn the mains supply back on and check both the house supply and while you have at least one outlet running go and check to see if your water meter is running backwards.

 

 

On 1/2/2020 at 1:48 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

 

If with the supply from the street turned off you have better pressure, it’s a design or valve configuration problem.

 

in most manually switched systems at least 1 valve should be normally closed.

 

please report the results of the tests.

after seeing so many valves on the pipes, I thought that maybe the initial request check might not prove anything, so didn't do them. 

After reading your recent follow up message, I did the tests this morning. 

here are the results 

 

First turn off the pump and check.

A: Same water pressure as with pump on initially, after about 30 seconds water output slowed to a trickle

then turn off the main water from the street and turn the pump back on and check.

A: Same pressure as with mains on, after about 45 seconds air pockets appeared in the pipes so that the out flow began to sputter 

 

After that turn the mains supply back on and check both the house supply and while you have at least one outlet running go and check to see if your water meter is running backwards.

A: the meter continued to move forward not backwards.

 

hope this helps and it means more to you than me?

thanks again

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

First turn off the pump and check.

A: Same water pressure as with pump on initially, after about 30 seconds water output slowed to a trickle

That is the pressure stored in the pump, and it means that if you have a bypass stopcock it is off (usual configuration except in a power cut.

 

3 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

then turn off the main water from the street and turn the pump back on and check.

A: Same pressure as with mains on, after about 45 seconds air pockets appeared in the pipes so that the out flow began to sputter 

That is confusing as there should be no air in the pipes.

 

re run that test for a while, 5 ~ 10 minutes, if you continue with air in the water you have a problem.

3 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

After that turn the mains supply back on and check both the house supply and while you have at least one outlet running go and check to see if your water meter is running backwards.

A: the meter continued to move forward not backwards.

 

hope this helps and it means more to you than me?

thanks again

 

That confirms that the bypass or NVR seems to be correctly configured.

this test is still pending. 
 

with the water from the mains turned on

On 1/11/2020 at 2:31 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Try turning on several outlets at the same time. If the pattern of pump activity doesn’t change then there seems to be something wrong.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

duplicate 

Edited January 12, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[flipper2222222]

G'day,
This time turned off the mains and ran for 5 mins with multiple outlets running, no sputtering this time.
On the individual outlet test.
The pump turns off and on several times each minute, same operation with each outlet turned on individually.

 

I thought the pumps job was to pressurise all the internal pipes and therefore the pump should activate immediately when a tap is turned on, correct or not?

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

G'day,
This time turned off the mains and ran for 5 mins with multiple outlets running, no sputtering this time.
On the individual outlet test.
The pump turns off and on several times each minute, same operation with each outlet turned on individually.

 

I thought the pumps job was to pressurise all the internal pipes and therefore the pump should activate immediately when a tap is turned on, correct or not?

No, the pump has an internal pressure tank that will pressurise the pipes. So when you initially turn on a tap the Water flows until the pressure drops to the cut in point and then the pump runs.

 

The pump cycling is because the flow is not enough to keep the pressure under the cutoff point. This didn’t happen with multiple taps on as the pump didn’t reach the cutoff pressure.

 

So assuming that the multiple outlet test is the same with the mains turned on ( start the test with the mains off then turn it on halfway through) it would seem that your system is in fact functional and that the air was an anomaly so if it doesn’t repeat can be ignored. If something changes when you turn the mains back on there is a problem.
 

So if your upstairs pressure is still too low a bigger pump (go 2 sizes up) should solve that, the downside is that the pump will short cycle even more. If that bothers you then large pressure tanks are available (probably about the same sort of price as a pump) you can add one to the system, while it won’t stop the pump cycling it will cut down the frequency.

 

before getting a bigger pump check the upstairs shower debris filter and if you have a tap upstairs check that the flow from that tap is also weak, if the flow is strong the the problem is in the shower, if weak then a bigger pump is the answer.

Edited January 12, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[flipper2222222]

thanks for all the answers and for working through this with me.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

thanks for all the answers and for working through this with me.

Did you pick up the last confirmation test?

 

multiple outlet test (start the test with the mains off then turn it on halfway through)

 

[flipper2222222]

Hi again

Just did the mains off multiple outlet test.

Pump action and pressure the same.

By buying and installing a higher wattage rated pump - does this increase the pressure of the water in the pipes and put pressure or the amount of water throughput or both?

Thanks

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, flipper2222222 said:

Hi again

Just did the mains off multiple outlet test.

Pump action and pressure the same.

By buying and installing a higher wattage rated pump - does this increase the pressure of the water in the pipes and put pressure or the amount of water throughput or both?

Thanks

Did you not look at the picture in post number 15? Or the words?

The answers are there.

[flipper2222222]

thanks for pointing me back to #15 

all clear now.