Scottish independence

[phka]

As a result of brexit it now looks like Scotland will break away from the UK probably northern Ireland as well. 

Will the UK be changed to DK (divided kingdom) 

Seriously can hardly call in United Kingdom anymore. 

Well done Brexiteers very patriotic of you. 

[lungbing]

Go on, I'll fall for it.

Scotland will not break away because they had their once-in-a-generation referendum and lost it.  They won't get another for many, many years.  The only Scots who want  to break away are the English-hating blue painted face rabid nationalists who see themselves as William Wallace reincarnated.  The majority of Scots are far too sensible. (My son lives in Edinburgh so I am kept well informed) 

However, playing devil's advocate, let's assume they do get their independence and try to join the EU.  With the Scottish economy?  And no currency of their own?  Spain alone would veto them because of Catalonia.  Would Scotland want to leave a group in which they are a quarter partner and have a large say in the national parliament, some would say too great a say for a country  with a population less than London, only to join a group of well over 20 and be told what to do.  Some cry of "Freedom" that would be.  The prime mover in this is Nicola Sturgeon who salivates at the mouth with the though of being address as "Madam President"  or better still as "Her Majesty Nicola the First".

Northern Island will not join the ROI until the Catholics have more votes than the Protestants.  That may happen, but not for decades yet and only then if they are given a referendum.

And as for being a patriot, yes I am, as unpopular as that is at the moment.  My patriotism was one of the reasons I voted to leave the EU.  I am old enough to have voted 'yes' the first time in the 70's when given the choice as whether to stay in the Common Market.  We are, or were, a nation of shopkeepers as called by a short-arsed Frenchman 200 years ago.  The common market was good, apart from butter mountains and wine lakes. (Pre Junker obviously!)  But a European army, ever closer union, being lectured as a country by the Prime Minister of Malta, total population less than Leicester?  No thanks.

 

We'll do well, and that alone is what upsets people like you.  You lost.  Get over it and help the country.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

In a way I understand that lots of people in Scotland and NI want to stay in the EU and are not exited about Boris and Brexit.

But to be fair breaking up with the "UK" does not mean everything will be just fine from that moment on.

I hope they think hard about all the foreseeable consequences before they make any decision.

Or just wait a decade or two before the UK joins the EU again. ???? 

[Bluespunk]

Good luck Scotland, no need for you to commit brexicide. 

[chickenslegs]

I don't think that the possibility of Brexit was ever considered during the last Scottish independence referendum. So, the pros and cons of remaining within the UK have changed massively and unexpectedly.

 

There is no doubt that the majority of Scots who voted in the Brexit referendum, voted to remain in the EU. Therefore, it makes sense to me that another Scottish independence referendum should be held.

 

However, I think it would be wise to let the dust settle on Brexit first and allow some time for Scots to make their decision based upon the success (or otherwise) of an independent UK. Maybe a guarantee of another referendum in, say, 3-5 years time.

 

Personally, I hope that Scotland remains a part of the UK, but I don't see any reason not to allow the Scottish people to decide.

 

 

 

 

[evadgib]

More sulking?

 

Scotland can expect a Miller-esque challenge to such folley if it ever got off the ground resulting in the entire Kingdom being polled which in turn would see them out on their kybers without passing 'Go!' or collecting GBP 200.

 

SNP presumably know this & will be treading far more carefully than they'd have their supporters believe.

Edited January 4, 2020 by evadgib

[DaRoadrunner]

1 hour ago, lungbing said:

The prime mover in this is Nicola Sturgeon who salivates at the mouth with the though of being address as "Madam President"  or better still as "Her Majesty Nicola the First".

Agreed, the woman is a power crazed self serving menace.

 

No worries, the Muslim take over of the UK will see it renamed as the Islamic Republic of Britainistan.

 

As for the remaining 6 million Scots, from which I am descended; apart from whiskey and oil, what have they got up there to produce income to support an independent Scotland? The oil will not last forever.

[phka]

1 hour ago, lungbing said:

Go on, I'll fall for it.

Scotland will not break away because they had their once-in-a-generation referendum and lost it.  They won't get another for many, many years.  The only Scots who want  to break away are the English-hating blue painted face rabid nationalists who see themselves as William Wallace reincarnated.  The majority of Scots are far too sensible. (My son lives in Edinburgh so I am kept well informed) 

However, playing devil's advocate, let's assume they do get their independence and try to join the EU.  With the Scottish economy?  And no currency of their own?  Spain alone would veto them because of Catalonia.  Would Scotland want to leave a group in which they are a quarter partner and have a large say in the national parliament, some would say too great a say for a country  with a population less than London, only to join a group of well over 20 and be told what to do.  Some cry of "Freedom" that would be.  The prime mover in this is Nicola Sturgeon who salivates at the mouth with the though of being address as "Madam President"  or better still as "Her Majesty Nicola the First".

Northern Island will not join the ROI until the Catholics have more votes than the Protestants.  That may happen, but not for decades yet and only then if they are given a referendum.

And as for being a patriot, yes I am, as unpopular as that is at the moment.  My patriotism was one of the reasons I voted to leave the EU.  I am old enough to have voted 'yes' the first time in the 70's when given the choice as whether to stay in the Common Market.  We are, or were, a nation of shopkeepers as called by a short-arsed Frenchman 200 years ago.  The common market was good, apart from butter mountains and wine lakes. (Pre Junker obviously!)  But a European army, ever closer union, being lectured as a country by the Prime Minister of Malta, total population less than Leicester?  No thanks.

 

We'll do well, and that alone is what upsets people like you.  You lost.  Get over it and help the country.

 

Your vote helped the demise of the uk you proclaim to be patriotic but your a traitor in desguise 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, lungbing said:

Go on, I'll fall for it.

Scotland will not break away because they had their once-in-a-generation referendum and lost it.  They won't get another for many, many years.  The only Scots who want  to break away are the English-hating blue painted face rabid nationalists who see themselves as William Wallace reincarnated.  The majority of Scots are far too sensible. (My son lives in Edinburgh so I am kept well informed) 

However, playing devil's advocate, let's assume they do get their independence and try to join the EU.  With the Scottish economy?  And no currency of their own?  Spain alone would veto them because of Catalonia.  Would Scotland want to leave a group in which they are a quarter partner and have a large say in the national parliament, some would say too great a say for a country  with a population less than London, only to join a group of well over 20 and be told what to do.  Some cry of "Freedom" that would be.  The prime mover in this is Nicola Sturgeon who salivates at the mouth with the though of being address as "Madam President"  or better still as "Her Majesty Nicola the First".

Northern Island will not join the ROI until the Catholics have more votes than the Protestants.  That may happen, but not for decades yet and only then if they are given a referendum.

And as for being a patriot, yes I am, as unpopular as that is at the moment.  My patriotism was one of the reasons I voted to leave the EU.  I am old enough to have voted 'yes' the first time in the 70's when given the choice as whether to stay in the Common Market.  We are, or were, a nation of shopkeepers as called by a short-arsed Frenchman 200 years ago.  The common market was good, apart from butter mountains and wine lakes. (Pre Junker obviously!)  But a European army, ever closer union, being lectured as a country by the Prime Minister of Malta, total population less than Leicester?  No thanks.

 

We'll do well, and that alone is what upsets people like you.  You lost.  Get over it and help the country.

 

You are not well informed at all. The Scottish economy would be doing great. The majority of the Scots want independence. The majority of the EU want them in. They voted to stay in because of a lot of promises which all have not been fulfilled. The don't even need a referendum, they can declare their independence.

Edited January 4, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[vogie]

It does not always follow, just because the Scots want to remain in the EU doesn't mean that they want to leave the United Kingdom. Over 2 million Scots voted to remain within the UK in their once in a generation referendum whilst only 1.25 million voted for the SNP. Polls suggests that the Scots do not want another referendum, although I strongly concede that the SNP do.

[DannyCarlton]

40 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I don't think that the possibility of Brexit was ever considered during the last Scottish independence referendum.

No, quite the opposite. It was constantly pointed out to the leavers that independance would mean them leaving the EU and it would take years to re apply. The motto was "Stay in the UK, stay in the EU".

 

Well you can't have your cake and eat it so the new motto is, "Leave the UK, rejoin the EU", something that a large majority of Scots have shown they prefer by voting to stay in the EU.

 

The british government has massively moved the goalposts since the last referendum, it's only fair that they allow the Scots a new referendum based on the new circumstances.

[chickenslegs]

12 minutes ago, DannyCarlton said:

No, quite the opposite. It was constantly pointed out to the leavers that independance would mean them leaving the EU and it would take years to re apply. The motto was "Stay in the UK, stay in the EU".

 

Well you can't have your cake and eat it so the new motto is, "Leave the UK, rejoin the EU", something that a large majority of Scots have shown they prefer by voting to stay in the EU.

 

The british government has massively moved the goalposts since the last referendum, it's only fair that they allow the Scots a new referendum based on the new circumstances.

Hi Danny,

That selective quote from my post, and your reply to it, is quite misleading. I said that Brexit (i.e. - the whole of the UK leaving the EU) was not a consideration during the Scottish referendum.

Yes, I agree that there was scaremongering about what would occur if the Scots left the UK - and, therefore the EU. But, that is not the same thing at all.

[NanLaew]

24 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You are not well informed at all. The Scottish economy would be doing great. The majority of the Scots want independence. The majority of the EU want them in. They voted to stay in because of a lot of promises which all have not been fulfilled. The don't even need a referendum, they can declare their independence.

You're not much better though. Much was made by the nationalists about the dynamics wrought of the Brexit vote negating the 2014 referendum.

 

In the last General Election about 1.2 million Scots voted for the only party that wants Scottish independence whereas about 1.4 million voted for the remaining parties that do not want Scottish independence.

 

The SNP's 'mandate' for Indyref 2 is totally, TOTALLY non-existent.

[evadgib]

41 minutes ago, phka said:

Your vote helped the demise of the uk you proclaim to be patriotic but your a traitor in desguise 

From a dyslexic troll?

[RichardColeman]

Once in a generation to losers seems these days to mean 2-3 years at most.

 

The real reason they want to push it now,  is that the bad loser red haired woman and the one policy SNP are absolutely terrified of the Tories making a success of Brexit ! And they know full well that people would vote to stay in a booming UK than risk a dodgy independence.

 

Personally I would give them a second vote , after A. 20 years (which seems to be a life sentence these days to judges), B. that they have fully costed and shown an ability not to reduce Scotland to bankruptcy without UK money and EU money (since they would not be overly subsidised as currently until getting EU handouts), and C that they have fully costed a border with the UK since the EU would insist on one as would us English.

 

And as for them wanting to join the EU, what a joke, campaigning to leave one union only to go cap in hand to another

 

 

[sirineou]

They say "be careful what you wish for you just might get it"

It seems to me that since the UK does not like Unions that they might just get their wish , or ist it that they just don't like some Unions but like others?

IMO "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"

[UKresonant]

During the last referendum, theRe was one of the German banks had speculated that about 6 months of GDP would have to be available to issue to everyone in Scotland, just to spend over the first months as confidence and uncertainty would prevail initially.

 

I think on one of the TV programmed for the general election, it was asked if another referendum resulted in a leave result, would there be a confirmation vote once everyone knew the detail! There did not seem to be a positive response...Many of the SNPs anti Brexit arguments, seem to be so easily reversed for their independence drive.

 

I was lucky enough to be involved in a meeting, at the time of the last referendum, it showed that a lot of the SNP thinking was academic rather than practical. It assumed that specialist workers would just hang around for the SNP to award a contract (they would be in demand in other industry sectors) The SNP chap found it difficult to answer the rational questions from someone working in that sector. Though it was also thought the Gov message was mainly many negatives at that point....

If the Scottish Gov could demonstrate practically a better way, more efficient way of doing things, but they are not, and if they could, why would that not beneficial for other parts of the UK.

Edited January 4, 2020 by UKresonant

[ratcatcher]

4 hours ago, phka said:

Seriously can hardly call in United Kingdom anymore. 

Let's just call it The Untied Kingdom then.

[brokenbone]

the scots must vote between england & EU

[cmarshall]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and also voted to remain in the EU.  Since both options are no longer available the best way to find out which they want would be to ask them.

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and also voted to remain in the EU.  Since both options are no longer available the best way to find out which they want would be to ask them.

That would be like asking John Prescott if he wants to go vegan, why ask the question when you know the answer already.

[brokenbone]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

That would be like asking John Prescott if he wants to go vegan, why ask the question when you know the answer already.

no

[evadgib]

48 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Scotland voted to remain in the UK and also voted to remain in the EU.  Since both options are no longer available the best way to find out which they want would be to ask them.

Them being the entire Kingdom?

Edited January 5, 2020 by evadgib

[brokenbone]

38 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Them being the entire Kingdom?

you have a point actually.

after the scots vote, if they vote for eu,

then england should be asked again if they want brexit or not,

now knowing the full extent of what its going to be

[phka]

12 hours ago, evadgib said:

From a dyslexic troll?

Typing error Mr nit picker

[DannyCarlton]

8 minutes ago, phka said:

Typing error Mr nit picker

Shouldn't that be "tit pricker"?

[FritsSikkink]

21 hours ago, NanLaew said:

You're not much better though. Much was made by the nationalists about the dynamics wrought of the Brexit vote negating the 2014 referendum.

 

In the last General Election about 1.2 million Scots voted for the only party that wants Scottish independence whereas about 1.4 million voted for the remaining parties that do not want Scottish independence.

 

The SNP's 'mandate' for Indyref 2 is totally, TOTALLY non-existent.

Doesn't work like that, the SNP has 48 out of 59 seats. 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Doesn't work like that, the SNP has 48 out of 59 seats. 

Doesn't work like you think either.

 

Yes, the SNP does have 80% of the Scottish seats in Westminster but, they only have 62 of the 129 seats in the Scottish Assembly in Holyrood. It's the single largest party hence Sturgeon being First Minister but that's only 48% of that house. The Scottish elections are due next year (or earlier) hence the renewed, desperate and misguided hue and cry about Indyref 2. If the Tories do a decent job of leaving the EU and everybody is happy in both London and Strasbourg by the end of 2020, then the SNP's wee independence train will rapidly start running out of steam. There's probably at least half-a-dozen seats north of the border that a resurgent Conservative party could easily claw back. The LibDems under better leadership may also regain some power as they do have a respectable history of representation up north. However, I doubt Scottish Labour will amount to much until their 'head office' sorts itself out. When Kezia Dugdale threw the towel in, their candle went out in 2017.

 

The Scottish Independence bus did pass in 2014 and there's not another one due for quite a while.

Edited January 5, 2020 by NanLaew

[ballpoint]

Before Scotland would be allowed to join the EU they would have to sort out the hard border with England.

[FritsSikkink]

13 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Before Scotland would be allowed to join the EU they would have to sort out the hard border with England.

Which is no problem at all