UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I don't get it. What is the reasoning for Englishmen not to allow Scotts to decide what they want for their future?

 

Why Englishmen would even want to keep on going with dysfunctional union, when it's clear that now when UK is leaving EU, Scots want to exit the union with England? 

 

EU was naturally sad that important part of it wanted to leave, when UK first independently decided to to have a referendum and then decided to Brexit. However EU was ok with the situation.

 

Why Englishmen wish to force Scotland to stay as part of the union by not letting Scotland to decide her own fate by a referendum. A referendum is valid now when the environment has radically changed for Scotland. 

 

If she loves you, let her free. If she comes back, she is yours. If not, she never was.

I think you are making an incorrect comparison there. Yes, the EU is ok with the UK leaving, because the UK voted in a referendum to leave. The UK had two chances: once in 1975 and once in 2016. Two referendums more than 40 years apart. 

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK in their first referendum in 2014, with a 55/45 majority. So what is the basis of your argument that Englishmen are forcing Scotland to stay in the union? 

 

Perhaps you're thinking that the SNP are Scotland? The SNP are a political party who's central policy is for Scottish independence. They are the only Scottish representatives in Westminster, so naturally they give the impression to the outside world that all Scots want independence. Maybe this is why you are mistaken? 

 

Personally I think if polling for independence in Scotland is consistently in favour of independence over say the next...5 years, then they should get another referendum. I don't think there is justification for another referendum in 2020, just because the SNP want it. 

 

 

 

[Jip99]

19 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I don't get it. What is the reasoning for Englishmen not to allow Scotts to decide what they want for their future?

 

Why Englishmen would even want to keep on going with dysfunctional union, when it's clear that now when UK is leaving EU, Scots want to exit the union with England? 

 

EU was naturally sad that important part of it wanted to leave, when UK first independently decided to to have a referendum and then decided to Brexit. However EU was ok with the situation.

 

Why Englishmen wish to force Scotland to stay as part of the union by not letting Scotland to decide her own fate by a referendum. A referendum is valid now when the environment has radically changed for Scotland. 

 

If she loves you, let her free. If she comes back, she is yours. If not, she never was.

 

 

You don't actually speak for all Scots as the majority do not wish to exit the Union.

 

Just because Sturgeon has a big gob, and a a disproportionate number of parliamentary seats, does not make another referendum valid now. Had one, wait another 5 years or so.

 

Although I am fundamentally in favour of the Union I have to be careful not to be hypocritical. I was in favour of the UK having a referendum to leave/remain in the EU and I am generally in favour of citizens deciding their own fate. However, the Union is somewhat more deeply and historically defined than the EU that evolved badly over 40 years or so. Additionally, the Scottish people did have a vote in 2014 and that result holds good.

[vogie]

33 minutes ago, TheDark said:

When the Big Ben Bongs, UK is out. 

 

Big Ben represents quite well the whole Brexit process. To get changes done in England, takes years and a lot of money. Meanwhile, during the suspension of Big Ben's ability to inform people, the crows have nested and multiplied on top of the parliamentary structures. 

 

May the Big Ben Bong again.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't stop you waving your Union Flag down the Mall though does it on the night of the 31st of Jan, remember, be there or be square.

[TheDark]

50 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think you are making an incorrect comparison there. Yes, the EU is ok with the UK leaving, because the UK voted in a referendum to leave. The UK had two chances: once in 1975 and once in 2016. Two referendums more than 40 years apart. 

Scotland voted to remain part of the UK in their first referendum in 2014, with a 55/45 majority. So what is the basis of your argument that Englishmen are forcing Scotland to stay in the union? 

 

Perhaps you're thinking that the SNP are Scotland? The SNP are a political party who's central policy is for Scottish independence. They are the only Scottish representatives in Westminster, so naturally they give the impression to the outside world that all Scots want independence. Maybe this is why you are mistaken? 

 

Personally I think if polling for independence in Scotland is consistently in favour of independence over say the next...5 years, then they should get another referendum. I don't think there is justification for another referendum in 2020, just because the SNP want it. 

SNP is a political party of Scotland, which gained huge majority in last elections. People of Scotland wanted to show their support for the cause, quite like the people of England showed their support of their cause. 

 

As the reason for staying together with England has changed, it's time to have a new poll. The world moves on rather fast in the rest of the world, so can Scotland too, once it's independent. 

 

Scotland wishes to have her own say. Whether to stay with England and be it's subject, or become once again the nation it once was. 

 

You did not answer, why would Englishmen want to keep on going with dysfunctional union with the Scottish nation? Why not separate the United Kingdom in peace and get the whole process of dismantling UK, which is coming sooner or later, over with? 

[TheDark]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

You don't actually speak for all Scots as the majority do not wish to exit the Union.

 

Just because Sturgeon has a big gob, and a a disproportionate number of parliamentary seats, does not make another referendum valid now. Had one, wait another 5 years or so.

 

Although I am fundamentally in favour of the Union I have to be careful not to be hypocritical. I was in favour of the UK having a referendum to leave/remain in the EU and I am generally in favour of citizens deciding their own fate. However, the Union is somewhat more deeply and historically defined than the EU that evolved badly over 40 years or so. Additionally, the Scottish people did have a vote in 2014 and that result holds good.

I salute you for understanding the issue of being hypocritical, when making a point. That's a rare trait these days, when people are living in their own bubbles. 

 

While history and knowledge of the past is important to understand what can be avoided in the future, it's also important to be able to move past old times and look to the future. 

 

United Kingdom served it's member well in the past. But as times and global power politics have shifted in the past decades quite dramatically, it affects everybody. It also affects the union between England and Scotland. 

 

When this marriage of nations no longer work well for one party, it's time to conclude that separation is the best way forward for both parties. 

 

What happened during Brexit referendum and very importantly after the referendum. The way England behaved towards Scotland and other nations, can not be undone. The final divorce process has now started and it's quite unlikely that it can anymore be stopped. Hindered perhaps, but it can not be stopped anymore. 

 

So why try to hinder the eventuality? The relationship between England and Scotland would stay far better, if the separation process is practically supported by both parties. 

[Jip99]

14 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I salute you for understanding the issue of being hypocritical, when making a point. That's a rare trait these days, when people are living in their own bubbles. 

 

While history and knowledge of the past is important to understand what can be avoided in the future, it's also important to be able to move past old times and look to the future. 

 

United Kingdom served it's member well in the past. But as times and global power politics have shifted in the past decades quite dramatically, it affects everybody. It also affects the union between England and Scotland. 

 

When this marriage of nations no longer work well for one party, it's time to conclude that separation is the best way forward for both parties. 

 

What happened during Brexit referendum and very importantly after the referendum. The way England behaved towards Scotland and other nations, can not be undone. The final divorce process has now started and it's quite unlikely that it can anymore be stopped. Hindered perhaps, but it can not be stopped anymore. 

 

So why try to hinder the eventuality? The relationship between England and Scotland would stay far better, if the separation process is practically supported by both parties. 

 

 

Ask not what my Kingdom can do for me. ask what can I do for my Kingdom....

 

 

I disagree with your conclusion, I think the history - and relationship, is strong.

 

 

Nevertheless, I bow to the voice of the people - if it is strong and deep, not just loud. Brexit has proved how divisive issues can be - and how marginal. In future any such referendums should require a minimum majority of 60/40.  If the Scots were to vote in favour of independence with those sort of numbers then off ye go. Not something I want, but something I would respect.

[TheDark]

29 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

Ask not what my Kingdom can do for me. ask what can I do for my Kingdom....

 

I disagree with your conclusion, I think the history - and relationship, is strong.

 

Nevertheless, I bow to the voice of the people - if it is strong and deep, not just loud. Brexit has proved how divisive issues can be - and how marginal. In future any such referendums should require a minimum majority of 60/40.  If the Scots were to vote in favour of independence with those sort of numbers then off ye go. Not something I want, but something I would respect.

I think it's only fair that the next Scottish referendum will be played by the same rules as Brexit happened. 50/50 division. Afterwards both countries can have their own ways to define, how they wish to tackle major changes which define how the country is brought forward in the next decades and generations. 

 

60/40 is good. 66/33 is even better, when it comes to major shifts. During the referendums, there is always voters, who wish to show the fingers to the political rulers, whoever they are at the moment. Great majority requirement dismisses the protest votes, which might be useful for minor changes, but be very destructive while dealing with major changes. 

 

Stability and predictability is good in societies. Big changes are good in minor changes of policies, most of the time. Big changes in major policies should be deal with greater thought process of the consequences. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by TheDark
Adding "protest" to clarify the essence and some other additions. Sorry.

[Kwasaki]

24 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

In future any such referendums should require a minimum majority of 60/40.

60/40 to leave EU !!  Oh come on you will still get remainers in Thailand complaining.

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, TheDark said:

SNP is a political party of Scotland, which gained huge majority in last elections. People of Scotland wanted to show their support for the cause, quite like the people of England showed their support of their cause. 

 

As the reason for staying together with England has changed, it's time to have a new poll. The world moves on rather fast in the rest of the world, so can Scotland too, once it's independent. 

 

Scotland wishes to have her own say. Whether to stay with England and be it's subject, or become once again the nation it once was. 

 

You did not answer, why would Englishmen want to keep on going with dysfunctional union with the Scottish nation? Why not separate the United Kingdom in peace and get the whole process of dismantling UK, which is coming sooner or later, over with? 

The SNP won 45% of the votes in Scotland in the recent general election. Do you not think if the majority of Scots wanted independence that percentage would have been much higher? That 45% matches the percentage who voted for independence in the 2014 referendum. Coincidence? 

 

Your question is not valid, because the union is only dysfunctional in your opinion (and in the opinion of Scots who want independence). If a good majority of Scots wanted independence, this Englishman would not object to another referendum on the matter. 

 

We all know how much chaos and divisiveness can ensue with referendums on huge constitutional matters, so it's important not to rush into these things just to satisfy those who shout the loudest. 

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

They have already had a once in a generation referendum - enough already, that was democracy in action. In case you missed it, in the recent GE, more Scots voted for parties not in favour of independence.

didna miss it at all

 

but why is it that referendums on indep.

is something that pub patrons in Westminster can dish out as they feel fit?

 

how is it that the English can determin that the ref a few years back is "enough already"?

 

which legal statute or agreement removes from the Scotts the right to have refs. on indep. whenever ythey feel like it?

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by melvinmelvin

[CG1 Blue]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

didna miss it at all

 

but why is it that referendums on indep.

is something that pub patrons in Westminster can dish out as they feel fit?

 

how is it that the English can determin that the ref a few years back is "enough already"?

 

which legal statute or agreement removes from the Scotts the right to have refs. on indep. whenever ythey feel like it?

 

 

 

But the majority Scots do not 'feel like it'. It's the SNP who feel like it! That's the point you're missing. 

 

[TheDark]

11 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The SNP won 45% of the votes in Scotland in the recent general election. Do you not think if the majority of Scots wanted independence that percentage would have been much higher? That 45% matches the percentage who voted for independence in the 2014 referendum. Coincidence? 

 

Your question is not valid, because the union is only dysfunctional in your opinion (and in the opinion of Scots who want independence). If a good majority of Scots wanted independence, this Englishman would not object to another referendum on the matter. 

 

We all know how much chaos and divisiveness can ensue with referendums on huge constitutional matters, so it's important not to rush into these things just to satisfy those who shout the loudest. 

 

I'm too tired to check those numbers at the moment. 

 

My point and question is, why Scots should not be allowed allowed to the nation, whether to be together with England or to gain independence? 

 

Is there some fundamental reason, why Scottish people should not be allowed to probe what is the current feeling towards either being part of the UK or being part of the EU?

 

Yes, referendums cause chaos and referendums are highly divisible. We have seen, what referendums do to a nation already. But as the train is now already moving, it's best to solve all the problems at one go. That way all the parties can start preparing towards known future, instead of unstable future, which is among us, unless this issue is not asked and perhaps, just perhaps, solved. 

[TheDark]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

But the majority Scots do not 'feel like it'. It's the SNP who feel like it! That's the point you're missing. 

I'm quite sure majority of Scotts wish to have their voices heard. 

 

You might differ, but then it's just your own personal opinion. 

 

Let the people say what they want by casting their votes. 

[englishoak]

52 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I'm quite sure majority of Scotts wish to have their voices heard. 

 

You might differ, but then it's just your own personal opinion. 

 

Let the people say what they want by casting their votes. 

 

The majority of Scots already said what they wanted, turns out it was to continue to be owned by England .... Should have asked the English to help out. Maybe in a couple of terms Scotland might get another shot but by then the EU could be a very different place... 

 

I do wish the Scots had taken the chance when offered, it is cold and bleak up there, no wonder 45% move to other countries. Not so much Scotland the brave as Scotland anywhere but thx ???? 

 

Cant say i disagree but it is funny how many who arnt there want it to leave  lol  

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

But the majority Scots do not 'feel like it'. It's the SNP who feel like it! That's the point you're missing. 

 

 

didn't miss that all

 

but what business is that of Westminster?

 

Is Westminster/England aspiring to become like the US, opinion and well being police outside its borders?

Why should Westminster grab the role of being chief quantifyer of the feelings in Scotland and

the arbiter of what is right wrong in Scotland?

 

seems Scotland is more like a vassal state in the archipellago

 

no surprise though, England has hundreds of years experience in this

grabbing land and keeping it

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

fairly OK speech, not brilliant but pretty good;

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

They have already had a once in a generation referendum - enough already, that was democracy in action. In case you missed it, in the recent GE, more Scots voted for parties not in favour of independence.

More UK voters voted for parties that were not the nasty party. 

 

More Scots voted for the SNP than UK voters voted for the nasty party.

What's your point? 

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The SNP won 45% of the votes in Scotland in the recent general election. Do you not think if the majority of Scots wanted independence that percentage would have been much higher? That 45% matches the percentage who voted for independence in the 2014 referendum. Coincidence? 

 

 

As you say, it was a GE, not an independence referendum. There are independence supporters in both Labour and Tory camps (I am not so sure about LD) and, perversely, there are, apparently, a small number of SNP supporters who voted to stay in the UK in 2014. Politics is not cleanly defined along party lines. 

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

More UK voters voted for parties that were not the nasty party. 

 

More Scots voted for the SNP than UK voters voted for the nasty party.

What's your point? 

 

 

What's yours ?

[vogie]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

More UK voters voted for parties that were not the nasty party. 

 

More Scots voted for the SNP than UK voters voted for the nasty party.

What's your point? 

Not true, unless you wish to spin it. Nearly 14 million of the electorate voted Tory, whilst 1.2 million voted for the SNP, yer but, ah but, no but.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, vogie said:

By you saying what the Scottish people want does not make it so, can you start providing some meat to the bone instead of coming out with this nonsense. Making up posts and passing them off as facts does not help anyone........Links please. 

It is quite clear what Scotland want, and when there is meat on the bone you refuse to accept it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

 

 

Results of the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum - Wikipedia.pdf

[sandyf]

In 1953/54 the Queen went on a flag flying mission for 6 months to try and deter countries from talking about independence, a futile exercise against the inevitable. The Monarchy was in trouble with the Duke of Windsor in exile, Princess Margaret an embarrassment and Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother bought Castle May to get away from it all. The Prime Minister at the time, Winston Churchill, was trying to get into bed with the US president over Russia.

Sixty odd years on and not a lot has changed. Monarchy in trouble with Prince Andrew an embarrassment and Prince Harry trying to get away from it all, and again the Prime Minister trying to get into bed with the US president. Brexit has made independence for some of the Westminster controlled territories almost inevitable, no amount of flag flying is going to save the day.

A decade after the Queen's tour the UK was slipping into the abyss and looked to Europe for a way out, every chance that in  a decade down the line history could be repeating itself.

There is a certain consistency about the Westminster government, never learn from the mistakes.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, vogie said:

Scotland are being treated like a member of our union, which they are.

You may have convinced yourself, but what part of "fallen on deaf ears" have you found difficult.

 

 David Cameron sensibly declared in his resignation statement that the negotiations on the terms of Brexit ‘will need to involve the full engagement of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland governments to ensure that the interests of all parts of our United Kingdom are protected and advanced.’

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/brexit-consequentials-why-uk-must-involve-devolved-governments-process-leaving-eu

 

The devolved administrations have accused the UK government of taking major Brexit decisions on a unilateral basis and failing to take account the majority remain vote in Scotland and Northern Ireland – and their objections have fallen on deaf ears.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/sewel-convention-has-been-broken-brexit-reform-now-urgent

[vogie]

42 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is quite clear what Scotland want, and when there is meat on the bone you refuse to accept it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

 

 

Results of the 2016 United Kingdom European Union membership referendum - Wikipedia.pdf 91.09 kB · 0 downloads

You really do come out with some profound statements, it is not clear what Scotland wants. All the polls have shown that the majority of Scots still wish to remain within the UK, indy1 also conclusively proved this.

 

"The statement from Mrs Kuenssberg has come amid claims by polling guru John Curtice that the SNP has no mandate for a second Scottish independence referendum.

Mr Curtice dismissed Nicola Sturgeon’s view that there is a mandate from the Scottish people for a second referendum."

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1231310/BBC-news-Laura-Kuenssberg-SNP-Nicola-Sturgeon-Scottish-independence-warning

 

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You may have convinced yourself, but what part of "fallen on deaf ears" have you found difficult.

 

 David Cameron sensibly declared in his resignation statement that the negotiations on the terms of Brexit ‘will need to involve the full engagement of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland governments to ensure that the interests of all parts of our United Kingdom are protected and advanced.’

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/brexit-consequentials-why-uk-must-involve-devolved-governments-process-leaving-eu

 

The devolved administrations have accused the UK government of taking major Brexit decisions on a unilateral basis and failing to take account the majority remain vote in Scotland and Northern Ireland – and their objections have fallen on deaf ears.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/sewel-convention-has-been-broken-brexit-reform-now-urgent

There will be no second referendum on Scottish independence this year. This is certain. And it is not because Boris Johnson has today told Nicola Sturgeon that, as expected, he is not minded to pass control of the UK constitution from Westminster to Holyrood – but because the people of Scotland are not yet demanding a referendum within Sturgeon’s preferred timetable. Indeed, they are not demanding a referendum at all. 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/01/why-there-wont-be-a-scottish-independence-poll-this-year/

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Not true, unless you wish to spin it. Nearly 14 million of the electorate voted Tory, whilst 1.2 million voted for the SNP, yer but, ah but, no but.

Percentages are not spin but fact. Here's another one - the SNP is more popular in Scotland than the tories are in the UK in terms of percentage share of the vote. 

[sandyf]

46 minutes ago, vogie said:

You really do come out with some profound statements, it is not clear what Scotland wants.

You may think that 62% is not clear, but that is a brexiteer interpretation, perfectly clear to everyone else.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Percentages are not spin but fact. Here's another one - the SNP is more popular in Scotland than the tories are in the UK in terms of percentage share of the vote. 

Now I am no expert on this RR but would you say there are voters in Scotland that are not being represented by their respective parties.

The SNP secured 48 seats with 1.25million voters.

The Labour Party secured 1 seat with just under half of what the SNP received, as the chart explains, same with the Tories only 6 seats won with 692,939 votes.

The SNP needed 25,000 votes to win one seat, whereas the Tories needed 115,000 votes to win one seat?

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

You may think that 62% is not clear, but that is a brexiteer interpretation, perfectly clear to everyone else.

Cherry picking to prove a point, doesn't prove anything. Have you got a recent up to date poll?

[sandyf]

50 minutes ago, vogie said:

There will be no second referendum on Scottish independence this year. This is certain. And it is not because Boris Johnson has today told Nicola Sturgeon that, as expected, he is not minded to pass control of the UK constitution from Westminster to Holyrood – but because the people of Scotland are not yet demanding a referendum within Sturgeon’s preferred timetable. Indeed, they are not demanding a referendum at all. 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2020/01/why-there-wont-be-a-scottish-independence-poll-this-year/

Fairly obvious you believe that a party manifesto has no bearing on how people vote.

 

Nicola Sturgeon however followed through on the manifesto and requested the Section 30, despite you thinking she had no right to do so.