1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Bit of a meaningless enquiry as that evidence can only come from holding a referendum.

You continually and conveniently keep forgetting that you have had a referendum, remain within the United Kingdom won by 55% to leave 45%. 

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Well wait no longer Mr Twisty.

 

Alex Salmond has been accused of attempting to rewrite history after he dismissed as a “collective myth” his promise before the 2014 independence referendum that there would not be a rerun for a generation or even a lifetime.

The former First Minister claimed he had not used the phrase “once in a lifetime” in a 2014 television interview to describe the vote and insisted he had instead said it was the “opportunity of a lifetime.”

However, footage and an official transcript of the interview showed he did use the “once in a lifetime” phrase when asked whether he would pledge not to “bring back another referendum” if the nationalists lost.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/alex-salmond-accused-rewriting-history-lifetime-referendum-pledge/

 

But whatever evidence is placed in front of you, you are all too willing to dismiss it, so I look forward to your dismissal of this too.

 

This is your idea of factual evidence.

Show me the documented text where anyone promises there would not be another referendum for a generation.

The phrase “opportunity of a lifetime.” is not in dispute, only the interpretation. Face reality, what state would the country be in if every comment by a politician was taken as gospel and had to be enforced.

Time that the Westminster government honoured it's commitment to self determination as recognised under international law.

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

You continually and conveniently keep forgetting that you have had a referendum, remain within the United Kingdom won by 55% to leave 45%. 

And the brexiteer wants to ignore the change in circumstances they have created. Which ever way you spin it, it is not a union, pure and simple dictatorship.

Just now, sandyf said:

This is your idea of factual evidence.

Show me the documented text where anyone promises there would not be another referendum for a generation.

The phrase “opportunity of a lifetime.” is not in dispute, only the interpretation. Face reality, what state would the country be in if every comment by a politician was taken as gospel and had to be enforced.

Time that the Westminster government honoured it's commitment to self determination as recognised under international law.

Salmond and Sturgeon said these things and they will be held accountable for their rhetoric, if what they stated is good enough for Boris, it is certainly good enough for me, and it should be good enough for you too.

It was recorded in the official transcript and that is all you need to know.

 

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

You continually and conveniently keep forgetting that you have had a referendum, remain within the United Kingdom won by 55% to leave 45%. 

Ah come on Vogie.

Just be like this guy.

 

 

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

And the brexiteer wants to ignore the change in circumstances they have created. Which ever way you spin it, it is not a union, pure and simple dictatorship.

You sound like some-one who is being dictated too. ????????????

18 minutes ago, sandyf said:

And the brexiteer wants to ignore the change in circumstances they have created. Which ever way you spin it, it is not a union, pure and simple dictatorship.

"Change in circumstances" If an Englishman had ran over Mrs Sturgeons cat it would be classed as "change in circumstances" and she would be blethering about another referendum. 

Why would the majority of the Scots vote to remain in the United Kingdom if it were a dictatorship, doesn't really make sense now does it.

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why would the majority of the Scots vote to remain in the United Kingdom if it were a dictatorship, doesn't really make sense now does it.

Because, as with Brexit, it was only won through a huge amount of lies and the deliberate spreading of misinformation and fear by the winning side. I have no doubt whatsoever that, as with the Scottish independence referendum, we will now see the subsequent failure to honour any of the promises made by the Vote Leave campaign. 

 

If you are prepared to take off your blinkers, it is all very clear. Dictatorships no longer need to stand on your neck to make you do their bidding. The kick off was several years ago; you just didn't realise it. 

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Because, as with Brexit, it was only won through a huge amount of lies and the deliberate spreading of misinformation and fear by the winning side. I have no doubt whatsoever that, as with the Scottish independence referendum, we will now see the subsequent failure to honour any of the promises made by the Vote Leave campaign. 

 

If you are prepared to take off your blinkers, it is all very clear. Dictatorships no longer need to stand on your neck to make you do their bidding. The kick off was several years ago; you just didn't realise it. 

Yes I forgot, us Leavers are too stupid to think for ourselves, thanks for jogging my memory.

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes I forgot, us Leavers are too stupid to think for ourselves, thanks for jogging my memory.

So you speak for all leavers but you regularly remind me that the SNP only speaks for the SNP? Glad we sorted that out. 

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

So you speak for all leavers but you regularly remind me that the SNP only speaks for the SNP? Glad we sorted that out. 

Don't go all nowty on me RR, I say that even though the Nationalists are in the minority, they like to speak for the majority. 

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

Don't go all nowty on me RR, I say that even though the Nationalists are in the minority, they like to speak for the majority. 

They don't even call themselves the "majority".  Rather, they call themselves "Scotland".

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Salmond and Sturgeon said these things and they will be held accountable for their rhetoric, if what they stated is good enough for Boris, it is certainly good enough for me, and it should be good enough for you too.

It was recorded in the official transcript and that is all you need to know.

 

There is nothing in legislation limiting the timing of referendums. Thus any statements made on ths subject can only at most be regarded as the position of the government at the time. 

Since no government can bind any future governments the previous position is moot .

Edited January 27, 20206 yr by cleopatra2

15 hours ago, TheDark said:

I agree that those terms are how referendums of very important issues should be hold. 

 

The problem is, that requiring those reasons, pretty much invalids the whole Brexit referendum in 2016. Had those rules been applied, Brexit would not have happened, Brexit would not had even majority if the British living abroad had been able to vote. 

 

10 years is probably too long time during these turbulent times. 4 years might be better as it allows the dust to settle after Brexit for people to see to which way the UK is developing towards. 

 

If UK is showing good signs and the relationship with EU is close and fulfilling, then Scottish people would probably want to stay. If not, then it's time to get out. 

 

But even before that, it's time to listen to the Scottish people. 

But the 2016 Brexit is long gone and there needs to be a laid down standard for future referendums and the politicians MUST learn from Brexit.

 

Had those rules been applied to Brexit.... But they weren't and hindsight is a wonderful thing to learn from. 

 

I voted for Brexit and to leave and I live abroad here in Thailand and I am on the electoral roll, which why I and thousands of others were allowed to vote.

 

The same rules should apply in any referendum, be it another Brexit vote, Indyref etc.

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

But the 2016 Brexit is long gone and there needs to be a laid down standard for future referendums and the politicians MUST learn from Brexit.

 

Had those rules been applied to Brexit.... But they weren't and hindsight is a wonderful thing to learn from. 

 

I voted for Brexit and to leave and I live abroad here in Thailand and I am on the electoral roll, which why I and thousands of others were allowed to vote.

 

The same rules should apply in any referendum, be it another Brexit vote, Indyref etc.

Moving the goalposts.

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Moving the goalposts.

 

does that make it easier or harder to score?

 

 

I see this guy frequently commenting on all sorts of political issues;

 

 

 

Brexit related or not.

 

Serious chap with scholarly background or just a "blogger" making a few quid?

 

3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

does that make it easier or harder to score?

 

Doesn't make any difference Melvin if you don't have a ball.????????????

6 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Moving the goalposts.

There were no goalposts for Brexit, just an ad hoc idea which basically said Leave or Remain. It was only after Leave won that all the problems began with the Remainers saying that it should be this or that and more people wanted to remain than leave. Cherry picking all the non voters and adding that numbers to those who wanted to remain. They could have voted if they wished, but they did not, and nobody knows how many of them would also have voted for Leave or Remain.

 

The same as Indy #1.

 

It needs to be taken seriously and planned out for the next and subsequent (if any) referendums.

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

There were no goalposts for Brexit, just an ad hoc idea which basically said Leave or Remain. It was only after Leave won that all the problems began with the Remainers saying that it should be this or that and more people wanted to remain than leave. Cherry picking all the non voters and adding that numbers to those who wanted to remain. They could have voted if they wished, but they did not, and nobody knows how many of them would also have voted for Leave or Remain.

 

The same as Indy #1.

 

It needs to be taken seriously and planned out for the next and subsequent (if any) referendums.

So Brexit should not go ahead until we have covered all the stipulations you have imposed? 

Aye right.

You won a referendum based on lies and misinformation but hell mend you all you won it.

Man up. Accept that the Brexit referendum was won in the full knowledge that it would result in the break up of the UK.

Its what you voted for. Get on with it. 

13 hours ago, sandyf said:

Bit of a meaningless enquiry as that evidence can only come from holding a referendum.

If that evidence can only come from holding a referendum, why do you and others tell us that the Scottish people want to leave the union?

A troll post has been removed.  

 

9 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

If that evidence can only come from holding a referendum, why do you and others tell us that the Scottish people want to leave the union?

Because the democratically elected Scottish government has been handed at least 3 explicit mandates by the Scottish electorate to seek a new referendum. 

13 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So Brexit should not go ahead until we have covered all the stipulations you have imposed? 

Aye right.

You won a referendum based on lies and misinformation but hell mend you all you won it.

Man up. Accept that the Brexit referendum was won in the full knowledge that it would result in the break up of the UK.

Its what you voted for. Get on with it. 

None can see anything except what we want to see when they are blinkered, which is what you and most Remainers are. You accuse us of breaking up the Union yet it is only the SNP who are screaming for Independence. NOT the UK as a whole. 

 

The SNP are crying again for Indy #2 and they want to restrict it to only those living in Scotland and ignoring the Scots who live elsewhere who should legally be allowed to vote.

 

quote "You won a referendum based on lies and misinformation but hell mend you all you won it."

So on the Remain side there were no lies or misinformation and you were all pure sweet and innocent. ???? ????  Yet many of you still cannot accept that you lost even after 3 years and 3 general elections.

 

Here on Thai Visa we only have your word and that of quite a few others that Scotland wants to become independent, and in the UK we have the word of a lot more and as on TVF there are many against.

 

The UK entry into the EEC back in 1973 and 1975 was also based on lies and obfuscations.

 

All this is based on my opinion and a few facts. Further back in the post I made some thoughts about ANY new referendums but have not yet seen you comment on that

 

 

7 minutes ago, billd766 said:

None can see anything except what we want to see when they are blinkered, which is what you and most Remainers are. You accuse us of breaking up the Union yet it is only the SNP who are screaming for Independence. NOT the UK as a whole. 

 

The SNP are crying again for Indy #2 and they want to restrict it to only those living in Scotland and ignoring the Scots who live elsewhere who should legally be allowed to vote.

 

quote "You won a referendum based on lies and misinformation but hell mend you all you won it."

So on the Remain side there were no lies or misinformation and you were all pure sweet and innocent. ???? ????  Yet many of you still cannot accept that you lost even after 3 years and 3 general elections.

 

Here on Thai Visa we only have your word and that of quite a few others that Scotland wants to become independent, and in the UK we have the word of a lot more and as on TVF there are many against.

 

The UK entry into the EEC back in 1973 and 1975 was also based on lies and obfuscations.

 

All this is based on my opinion and a few facts. Further back in the post I made some thoughts about ANY new referendums but have not yet seen you comment on that

 

 

 

Poll: Majority of Scots now back Holyrood power to hold independence referendum

Sunday 26 January 2020

 

"The majority of Scots believe the power to hold a second independence referendum should be held by Holyrood over Westminster, according to a poll.

A sample of 1,019 respondents across the country took part in the survey, which was conducted by Survation for polling and pro-independence think-tank Progress Scotland from between January 20 and 22."

 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

None can see anything except what we want to see when they are blinkered, which is what you and most Remainers are. You accuse us of breaking up the Union yet it is only the SNP who are screaming for Independence. NOT the UK as a whole. 

 

The SNP are crying again for Indy #2 and they want to restrict it to only those living in Scotland and ignoring the Scots who live elsewhere who should legally be allowed to vote.

 

quote "You won a referendum based on lies and misinformation but hell mend you all you won it."

So on the Remain side there were no lies or misinformation and you were all pure sweet and innocent. ???? ????  Yet many of you still cannot accept that you lost even after 3 years and 3 general elections.

 

Here on Thai Visa we only have your word and that of quite a few others that Scotland wants to become independent, and in the UK we have the word of a lot more and as on TVF there are many against.

 

The UK entry into the EEC back in 1973 and 1975 was also based on lies and obfuscations.

 

All this is based on my opinion and a few facts. Further back in the post I made some thoughts about ANY new referendums but have not yet seen you comment on that

 

 

Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence.

I did respond to your new "rules" about all future referendums. You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum.

You voted for Brexit in the full knowledge it would mean the breakup of the UK. You either didnt care or didnt listen.

Lets get on with it.

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence.

I did respond to your new "rules" about all future referendums. You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum.

You voted for Brexit in the full knowledge it would mean the breakup of the UK. You either didnt care or didnt listen.

Lets get on with it.

Sorry that I missed your response. My bad.  

 

quote "Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence."

 

Here is my answer. ???? ???? ????

 

I am so glad that you believe that I have the power to change all the rules and regulations (not that there were any) and move the goalposts for all referendums in the future.

 

However if you cannot see the difference between my thoughts and opinions and what the government is going to do/wants to do then don't blame me. I am not, nor have I ever been an MP, a member of the Illuminati, or even a member of a political party other than a non paid up member of the Brexit party.

 

When I saw the referendum paper it simply said Leave or Remain. There was no option for breaking up the union between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Perhaps there was on one from the SNP, but I don't think so.

 

The majority of people who want Scotland to leave the UK had the option at Indy ref#1 to do so. The SNP even banned Scots people living outside of Scotland from voting, but they did allow young people from 16 onwards to vote, but still the option to leave the UK was there.

 

Indy ref #1 failed 55% to 45%

 

quote " You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum."

 

Now let me see how far back it was since I had complete and absolute power over the whole of the UK? No, it seems that was never an option for me.

 

Who had control over the Brexit referendum? That would have been David Cameron and the Tories and not me.

 

Before you voted for Brexit did you understand what the question was?

If you didn't like the question, did you complain to your MP about it, or were you one of the people who thought that Brexit would never happen and so it didn't matter? 

Did you tell your MP that if the Brexit vote was to leave then it would mean breaking up the union?

 

If you did then, good for you. If you didn't then it is your problem.

 

If you REALLY want Scotland to leave the union, then get Nicola Sturgeon to make it a nationwide referendum for ALL voters registered on the electoral rolls of the UK and you can be sure of leaving.

 

BTW please don't keep blaming me for the problems between England and Scotland because I have/had nothing to do with it.

39 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence.

I did respond to your new "rules" about all future referendums. You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum.

You voted for Brexit in the full knowledge it would mean the breakup of the UK. You either didnt care or didnt listen.

Lets get on with it.

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't vote for Brexit thinking it would break up the UK. And I still don't think Brexit will break up the UK. If I believed everything the SNP say, then maybe I would - but I don't. 

 

A question for you: Is there a reason why you wouldn't be willing to wait at least a couple of years for indy ref 2, just to see how a post-Brexit UK shapes up? What is the rush? I suspect it's because pro-independence Scots want to take advantage of anti-Brexit anger in Scotland. Am I right? 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Might have blinkers on but you have your head buried in the sand over both Brexit and Scottish independence.

I did respond to your new "rules" about all future referendums. You are trying to move the goalposts setting far more demanding criteria than YOU would have accepted for the Brexit referendum.

You voted for Brexit in the full knowledge it would mean the breakup of the UK. You either didnt care or didnt listen.

Lets get on with it.

There was actually very little mentioned of any breakup of the UK during the 2016 referendum campaign but now the SNP want to threaten this because remain lost. Most UK political parties wrongly assumed that the UK would vote to remain in the EU. Now, according to the SNP, the apparent will of the Scots is to leave the UK (in favour of the EU) but this does not reflect the wishes of the Scots in the 2014 referendum. The SNP won a majority of seats in Scotland in 2019 but they did not win the majority of Scottish votes, so the SNP should not assume that they are speaking for Scotland as a whole. I still haven't met a Scotsman (or woman) that wants Scotland to leave the United Kingdom and stay in the EU.

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Poll: Majority of Scots now back Holyrood power to hold independence referendum

Sunday 26 January 2020

 

"The majority of Scots believe the power to hold a second independence referendum should be held by Holyrood over Westminster, according to a poll.

A sample of 1,019 respondents across the country took part in the survey, which was conducted by Survation for polling and pro-independence think-tank Progress Scotland from between January 20 and 22."

 

I don't think 1,019 people surveyed by a pro-independence think-tank proves a lot tbh. 

Furthermore, if Hollyrood (the SNP) held the power to hold indy refs, we would have them every 6 months! Imagine the cost, chaos and tensions there would be.