UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[evadgib]

34 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I don't know how others understand what is being a vassal, for me it's being a kid, adopted by by neighbours for the feel of duty, not love. 

 

Being tolerated, yet not be allowed to really live and flourish.

 

In a way Scotland is a vassal state under England. England simply, by it's far larger population, dictates how the Scottish people should live their lives. That's not fair, yet it's acceptable as long as England's way and values are on par with Scottish ones. That used to be the case, but it is no longer the case. 

 

UK never was a vassal state of EU. UK was one of the equal countries, which hold the power in one of the most powerful unions in the world. UK as whole, gave all that for becoming independent country. Isolated country.

 

If Scotland wishes to try to find its way to live and flourish, then Scotland should be not only allowed to do so, but encouraged to try to do so. The flame is there already. 

If EU were as wonderful as you'd have us believe UK would never have opted to leave. If they don't reform PDQ we won't be alone in doing so.

[TheDark]

6 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If EU were as wonderful as you'd have us believe UK would never have opted to leave. If they don't reform PDQ we won't be alone in doing so.

It's true. Had UK learned a bit more what EU does and how it operates, UK would have not ever left. 

 

But that does not matter anymore. UK is leaving in a weeks time and probably going to separate herself so far from the continental Europe, that there is a lot less to talk between these two entities anymore. 

[vogie]

Unite has backed RL Baily for the leader of the Labour Party and Richard Burgon as dep leader, two words spring to mind, dream team. Len McClusky said "RLB has both the brains and the brilliance to take on Boris Johnson"

"Its beginning to look a lot like Christmas" ????????????

 

[evadgib]

Nandy is the best of a bad bunch IMO.

[Laughing Gravy]

29 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Nandy is the best of a bad bunch IMO.

And if you believe our Irish number 76 poster the Labour party will be kicking the Tories out at the next election. With these bunch they couldn't kick a ball never mind the Tories out of office.

[billd766]

12 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

sure,

but by and large - EU does not work that way

 

the general MO is that concerned memeber states have already said YES to the treatment they enjoy/suffer

 

pretty much like the way in which UK has said explicitly yes to all they perceive as awfull with EU

UK has actively built the terrible EU - don't forget that

much of what you dislike with EU is pretty much your fault

 

 

 

Is that why Eire had to vote, revote and revote yet again to get the "right" result that the EU wanted.

How about Poland who, in their own country, under their ow laws, changed the rules on selecting judges.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/polands-planned-judiciary-reforms-would-undermine-rule-of-law/a-52034657

 

Despite the European Commission taking action against Poland and Hungary for judicial reforms that risk "a serious breach of the values on which the Union is founded," EU lawmakers have called for more pressure on the two member states.

 

In a resolution, the Parliament urged the Commission to ensure that Article 7, which could ultimately strip a member state of its EU voting rights, is properly applied with "expedited infringement procedures" and "interim measures." MEPs also want the provision of EU funds to both countries dependent on whether they respect the rule of law.

 

And the EU is said by many to be a bastion of the rule of law. It seems as though the EU laws over ride national laws in the name of "democracy", EU style.

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Is that why Eire had to vote, revote and revote yet again to get the "right" result that the EU wanted.

How about Poland who, in their own country, under their ow laws, changed the rules on selecting judges.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/polands-planned-judiciary-reforms-would-undermine-rule-of-law/a-52034657

 

Despite the European Commission taking action against Poland and Hungary for judicial reforms that risk "a serious breach of the values on which the Union is founded," EU lawmakers have called for more pressure on the two member states.

 

In a resolution, the Parliament urged the Commission to ensure that Article 7, which could ultimately strip a member state of its EU voting rights, is properly applied with "expedited infringement procedures" and "interim measures." MEPs also want the provision of EU funds to both countries dependent on whether they respect the rule of law.

 

And the EU is said by many to be a bastion of the rule of law. It seems as though the EU laws over ride national laws in the name of "democracy", EU style.

 

if the Irish opt to act sheepish that is their privilege, nothing that can be forced upon them

 

yes, with Poland you see an example of potential over ruling,

you cannot have politically controlled judiciary in EU, you cannot have fascism, you cannot have undemocratic governance.

that does not sell

- there are basics that must be adhered to -

 

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, candide said:

Exactly. The UK has been particularly influencial in promoting a liberal economic agenda, supporting the accession of Eastern European countries, and accelerating the free movement of workers from these countries.

Prompted by Blair.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, vogie said:

Fact can never ever be interpreted as delusion,

Only if it was fact in the first place, no evidence that a promise was ever made would make it a delusion.

We await your evidence with bated breath.

[nauseus]

15 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

sure,

but by and large - EU does not work that way

 

the general MO is that concerned memeber states have already said YES to the treatment they enjoy/suffer

 

pretty much like the way in which UK has said explicitly yes to all they perceive as awfull with EU

UK has actively built the terrible EU - don't forget that

much of what you dislike with EU is pretty much your fault

 

 

 

The UK has actually had much less control of the "building" of the EU, its policies and direction than you might think. This has especially been so after so many UK vetoes were sacrificed/lost. This is one of the reasons that we are leaving now. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

if the Irish opt to act sheepish that is their privilege, nothing that can be forced upon them

 

yes, with Poland you see an example of potential over ruling,

you cannot have politically controlled judiciary in EU, you cannot have fascism, you cannot have undemocratic governance.

that does not sell

- there are basics that must be adhered to -

 

Then the EU needs to fess up and fix itself!

[Rookiescot]

On 1/25/2020 at 10:19 AM, vogie said:

Despite what the SNP thinks, there will be a rosy future for our UK, it is just so sad that so many people wish that not to happen as they would hate to be proven wrong. 

But untill you have a majority of the Scots wanting another referendum (I don't need to remind you of the result of the first one) you havn't got a leg to stand on. Always somebody elses fault.

But first you must honour the promise that both Sturgeon and Salmond gave to the Scottish people, once in a lifetime and generation statement.

Vogie I would be delighted if my predictions for the economy of the UK were wrong.

 

Where is the legally binding promise the referendum was a once in a generation event? What was a generation defined as? Where can I find the law or statute which covers when the next referendum on independence can be held?

[Rookiescot]

52% of the UK voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. You guys were told that at the time. So assuming you guys actually knew what you were voting for you were actively declaring you want the UK to separate.

Or are you guys going to tell us you didnt know what you were voting for?  

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Vogie I would be delighted if my predictions for the economy of the UK were wrong.

 

Where is the legally binding promise the referendum was a once in a generation event? What was a generation defined as? Where can I find the law or statute which covers when the next referendum on independence can be held?

Alec Salmond catagorically stated that the Scottish vote on independence would be a "once in a generation opportunity" and here is where it gets very interesting. Salmond went on to deny that he ever said that, perhaps because he knew that if people believed he had actually said that, that they might actually hold him to it, as is what's happening now.

Obviously Mrs Sturgeon went on to say that it would be a "once in a lifetime opportunity" and if you can't believe your leaders, who can you believe.

 

[vogie]

31 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only if it was fact in the first place, no evidence that a promise was ever made would make it a delusion.

We await your evidence with bated breath.

Fact: The Scots have had a referendum already on independence. Are you denying this?

[Rookiescot]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Alec Salmond catagorically stated that the Scottish vote on independence would be a "once in a generation opportunity" and here is where it gets very interesting. Salmond went on to deny that he ever said that, perhaps because he knew that if people believed he had actually said that, that they might actually hold him to it, as is what's happening now.

Obviously Mrs Sturgeon went on to say that it would be a "once in a lifetime opportunity" and if you can't believe your leaders, who can you believe.

 

Johnson promised he would rather be dead in a ditch than get an extension. Why is Johnson not dead in a ditch?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Johnson promised he would rather be dead in a ditch than get an extension. Why is Johnson not dead in a ditch?

You do know the difference between an idiom and a statement. Do you think that Boris was being literal when he said that he would rather be dead in a ditch?????????????

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

You do know the difference between an idiom and a statement. Do you think that Boris was being literal when he said that he would rather be dead in a ditch?????????????

You said we should believe our leaders when they tell us something. So yes. I expect Johnson to keep his word the same as you somehow believe Sturgeon and Salmond should be held accountable for theirs.   

[vogie]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

You said we should believe our leaders when they tell us something. So yes. I expect Johnson to keep his word the same as you somehow believe Sturgeon and Salmond should be held accountable for theirs.   

Boris was very much quoting William of Orange when he said that, Mrs Sturgeon was quoting Alec Salmond.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Boris was very much quoting William of Orange when he said that, Mrs Sturgeon was quoting Alec Salmond.

So how does that matter?

You need to show us the legally binding law or statute which defines when Scotland can have another referendum.

 

[vogie]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

So how does that matter?

You need to show us the legally binding law or statute which defines when Scotland can have another referendum.

 

It matters because that is what Salmond said and even denied saying it proving that he had something to hide, Boris AFAIK has never denied his dead in a ditch idiom.

Speach does not have to be written down to be legal, the spoken word can be judged to be just as legal.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

It matters because that is what Salmond said and even denied saying it proving that he had something to hide, Boris AFAIK has never denied his dead in a ditch idiom.

Speach does not have to be written down to be legal, the spoken word can be judged to be just as legal.

What Salmond did or did not say is asinine. If there is no legally binding statute or law defining when another referendum can be held then its up to the Scots to decide when they want it.

You can delude yourself that somehow what Johnson says and what someone else says are somehow different but that facts remains the same.

We will have our referendum. After all 52% voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

What Salmond did or did not say is asinine. If there is no legally binding statute or law defining when another referendum can be held then its up to the Scots to decide when they want it.

You can delude yourself that somehow what Johnson says and what someone else says are somehow different but that facts remains the same.

We will have our referendum. After all 52% voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. 

We will have our referendum. After all 52% voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. 

I have no doubt you will have your indy2 referendum, I just have my doubts whether you or I will be around to witness it. 

 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

We will have our referendum. After all 52% voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. 

I have no doubt you will have your indy2 referendum, I just have my doubts whether you or I will be around to witness it. 

 

This year?

I personally hope both of us will be around for at least as long as that.

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, vogie said:

We will have our referendum. After all 52% voted in favour of Brexit knowing it would result in the break up of the UK. 

I have no doubt you will have your indy2 referendum, I just have my doubts whether you or I will be around to witness it. 

 

When we exit the EU with Northern Ireland being granted special status in its arrangements with the EU, the treaty of Act of Union 1707, which guarantees that all parts of the union will have equal regulations and restrictions of trade, will have been breached. Maybe a referendum is not needed - a trip to the Court of Session could be enough to finally get out of this damaging union. 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

The UK has actually had much less control of the "building" of the EU, its policies and direction than you might think. This has especially been so after so many UK vetoes were sacrificed/lost. This is one of the reasons that we are leaving now. 

 

I understand that,

takes a lot to often be the NO NO member while the rest of Europe is shouting at you,

the largest mistake was probably to ACK the step from veto/all-yes to majority.

that is a drastic step when you deal with the kind of politics that EU addresses now

 

Ireland was mentioned - more servility than guts

but didn't Portugal end up in a similar situation? and also performed a 2nd national vote?

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Then the EU needs to fess up and fix itself!

 

think maybe I misunderstood that one,

 

I assume you didn't mean fess up and introduce allowances for fascism and undemocratic governance,

(thats how I read your entry)

 

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When we exit the EU with Northern Ireland being granted special status in its arrangements with the EU, the treaty of Act of Union 1707, which guarantees that all parts of the union will have equal regulations and restrictions of trade, will have been breached. Maybe a referendum is not needed - a trip to the Court of Session could be enough to finally get out of this damaging union. 

There is only the SNP and its deluded followers that are saying that this is a damaging union, most Scots (as proven) do not share your views nor the SNPs. Speak for yourself by all means but it is not very democratic to speak for your fellow Scots in such a way as if they do not matter.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Then the EU needs to fess up and fix itself!

IMHO the EU cannot reform itself because the people who run it believe that they make the correct decisions but cannot understand that one size does NOT fit all. That is easy to see from the outside where Germany  (the largest contributor) has an equal vote and veto, as for example Slovenia, Estonia, Croatia or Latvia who pay nothing in but are net gainers.

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

 

Ignoring the UK (as we are leaving) there are now only 9 contributing countries and 18 receiving countries, but they all have an equal say and the receiving countries don want to leave the trough. They certainly don't want to change the EU.

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, candide said:

Exactly. The UK has been particularly influencial in promoting a liberal economic agenda, supporting the accession of Eastern European countries, and accelerating the free movement of workers from these countries.

Past UK governments (Blair etc.) were able to do this through the back door, without the vast majority of the British public knowing about it. But now the UK government will be wholly accountable for immigration policy, for all to see. That's a good thing.