UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

There is only the SNP and its deluded followers that are saying that this is a damaging union, most Scots (as proven) do not share your views nor the SNPs. Speak for yourself by all means but it is not very democratic to speak for your fellow Scots in such a way as if they do not matter.

So you agree you only speak for a little over a third of the country when you talk about the EU being bad? 

 

But semantics and hypocrisy aside, my point was more related to the breaching of the terms of the Act of Union. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So you agree you only speak for a little over a third of the country when you talk about the EU being bad? 

 

But semantics and hypocrisy aside, my point was more related to the breaching of the terms of the Act of Union. 

But my point is, it should be the majority of the Scottish people to decide their future and not the SNP and its starry eyed followers deciding for them. Do you think that it is only the SNP that should decide this, if I was a unionist Scot I would be pretty damn grieved by which the SNP shows contempt to the rest of its citizens.

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, vogie said:

But my point is, it should be the majority of the Scottish people to decide their future and not the SNP and its starry eyed followers deciding for them. Do you think that it is only the SNP that should decide this, if I was a unionist Scot I would be pretty damn grieved by which the SNP shows contempt to the rest of its citizens.

The union is based upon a legal agreement. If that agreement is breached then the elected government of Scotland should respond appropriately.

 

It is not the SNP that is wilfully breaching the act. Should they close their eyes to the wilful debasement of the very founding principles of the United Kingdom? If not them, then who should ensure that the terms are preserved? 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

The union is based upon a legal agreement. If that agreement is breached then the elected government of Scotland should respond appropriately.

 

It is not the SNP that is wilfully breaching the act. Should they close their eyes to the wilful debasement of the very founding principles of the United Kingdom? If not them, then who should ensure that the terms are preserved? 

Irrespective of what the majority of the Scots think, very democratic, not.

 

Incidentally how can the Union breach this act, when the UK union voted in a democratic vote for it, sounds like another way to make a point that doesn't really exist.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I understand that,

takes a lot to often be the NO NO member while the rest of Europe is shouting at you,

the largest mistake was probably to ACK the step from veto/all-yes to majority.

that is a drastic step when you deal with the kind of politics that EU addresses now

 

Ireland was mentioned - more servility than guts

but didn't Portugal end up in a similar situation? and also performed a 2nd national vote?

 

Ireland voted 2x on the Lisbon Treaty.

 

Denmark voted 2x on the Maastricht Treaty.

 

France and the Netherlands rejected the proposed 2005 European Constitution but were not offered refrenda on the Lisbon Treaty (effectively the 2005 European Constitution rehashed).  

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

think maybe I misunderstood that one,

 

I assume you didn't mean fess up and introduce allowances for fascism and undemocratic governance,

(thats how I read your entry)

 

I thought that your description matched the EU better than Poland and Hungary.

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, vogie said:

Irrespective of what the majority of the Scots think, very democratic, not.

 

Incidentally how can the Union breach this act, when the UK union voted in a democratic vote for it, sounds like another way to make a point that doesn't really exist.

The union didn't breach it, Westminster did. That they voted in favour of Brexit is irrelevant - their imposition of a variation in trading terms between countries within the union is in direct contravention of one of the fundamental tenets of the act. 

[vogie]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

The union didn't breach it, Westminster did. That they voted in favour of Brexit is irrelevant - their imposition of a variation in trading terms between countries within the union is in direct contravention of one of the fundamental tenets of the act. 

Has anybody told Boris about this revelation yet, but I wouldn't build your hopes just yet RR, I am not as convinced as you seem to be, maybe it is just the last rattle of a dying SNP.

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Has anybody told Boris about this revelation yet, but I wouldn't build your hopes just yet RR, I am not as convinced as you seem to be, maybe it is just the last rattle of a dying SNP.

Johnson does detail as much as he does honesty. I don't think this will feature high up on his radar. 

 

Dying? Seriously? Did you write that with any hint of self consciousness at all?

 

Do you see the Scottish tories as a threat? If so, they are definitely playing the long game, what with their number of MPs almost halving at the last GE? Labour? They are in even worse shape, down to a single MP in Scotland. The SNP got the largest voter share of any party either in Scotland or the UK since the 30s. 

 

So please elaborate on why the SNP is dying, and just who the threat is because the Nasty party continues to be as despised as it is ridiculed in Scotland. 

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Johnson does detail as much as he does honesty. I don't think this will feature high up on his radar. 

 

Dying? Seriously? Did you write that with any hint of self consciousness at all?

 

Do you see the Scottish tories as a threat? If so, they are definitely playing the long game, what with their number of MPs almost halving at the last GE? Labour? They are in even worse shape, down to a single MP in Scotland. The SNP got the largest voter share of any party either in Scotland or the UK since the 30s. 

 

So please elaborate on why the SNP is dying, and just who the threat is because the Nasty party continues to be as despised as it is ridiculed in Scotland. 

The threat from the SNP will deminish as UK ascends post Brexit.

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Johnson does detail as much as he does honesty. I don't think this will feature high up on his radar. 

 

Dying? Seriously? Did you write that with any hint of self consciousness at all?

 

Do you see the Scottish tories as a threat? If so, they are definitely playing the long game, what with their number of MPs almost halving at the last GE? Labour? They are in even worse shape, down to a single MP in Scotland. The SNP got the largest voter share of any party either in Scotland or the UK since the 30s. 

 

So please elaborate on why the SNP is dying, and just who the threat is because the Nasty party continues to be as despised as it is ridiculed in Scotland. 

Brexit is over now, the Scottish electorate will not be voting for the SNP again in such numbers, IMO they have peaked, I'm afraid there is only one way for the SNP to go now, down, by the next election you will probably find the Conservatives and the Labour party starting to make inroads in Scotland again bringing a fairer balance to the political landscape.

This is about what the Scots want, not what the SNP wants, let us not forget this very important point.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

37 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The threat from the SNP will deminish as UK ascends post Brexit.

Centre for Economic Policy Research has published a paper showing that, to date, Brexit has, so far, cost the average household £870 a year. 

 

https://cepr.org/active/publications/discussion_papers/dp.php?dpno=14176

[TheDark]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

But my point is, it should be the majority of the Scottish people to decide their future and not the SNP and its starry eyed followers deciding for them. Do you think that it is only the SNP that should decide this, if I was a unionist Scot I would be pretty damn grieved by which the SNP shows contempt to the rest of its citizens.

Exactly. That's why, now when the environment has fully changed, Scotts should have say whether to stay or be out of entiti previously known as United Kingdom.. and be part of European Union.

 

That people's say is called Independence referendum. 

 

It's good that you also agree that there should be one, after UK has left the EU.

[billd766]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexit is over now, the Scottish electorate will not be voting for the SNP again in such numbers, IMO they have peaked, I'm afraid there is only one way for the SNP to go now, down, by the next election you will probably find the Conservatives and the Labour party starting to make inroads in Scotland again bringing a fairer balance to the political landscape.

This is about what the Scots want, not what the SNP wants, let us not forget this very important point.

 

 

IMHO it is about what ALL Scots want, not just what the SNP wants.

 

Again IMHO the Scots should have a referendum on independence BUT it must include ALL Scots who are on the electoral roll, and not just those living in Scotland.

 

It should apply to all those people on the electoral roll, Scottish or not, there should be a a firm Pass mark (put your figures here, 66% has been mentioned), only people of voting age should be eligible, and a very well thought out questions along the lines of perhaps, "Should Scotland become an independent country once again" Plus "Should Scotland leave the UK and Join the EU".

 

There should also be a legal time limit until another referendum be held. (Put your figures here, I suggest a 10 year period) but it is not my referendum.

 

Once the result is known then that should be the end of the referendum until that period expires. If the result is for leaving the UK and joining the EU, then that should be the end of it. Equally if the result is to stay in the UK then that should be the end of it too.

[TheDark]

22 minutes ago, billd766 said:

IMHO it is about what ALL Scots want, not just what the SNP wants.

 

Again IMHO the Scots should have a referendum on independence BUT it must include ALL Scots who are on the electoral roll, and not just those living in Scotland.

 

It should apply to all those people on the electoral roll, Scottish or not, there should be a a firm Pass mark (put your figures here, 66% has been mentioned), only people of voting age should be eligible, and a very well thought out questions along the lines of perhaps, "Should Scotland become an independent country once again" Plus "Should Scotland leave the UK and Join the EU".

 

There should also be a legal time limit until another referendum be held. (Put your figures here, I suggest a 10 year period) but it is not my referendum.

 

Once the result is known then that should be the end of the referendum until that period expires. If the result is for leaving the UK and joining the EU, then that should be the end of it. Equally if the result is to stay in the UK then that should be the end of it too.

I agree that those terms are how referendums of very important issues should be hold. 

 

The problem is, that requiring those reasons, pretty much invalids the whole Brexit referendum in 2016. Had those rules been applied, Brexit would not have happened, Brexit would not had even majority if the British living abroad had been able to vote. 

 

10 years is probably too long time during these turbulent times. 4 years might be better as it allows the dust to settle after Brexit for people to see to which way the UK is developing towards. 

 

If UK is showing good signs and the relationship with EU is close and fulfilling, then Scottish people would probably want to stay. If not, then it's time to get out. 

 

But even before that, it's time to listen to the Scottish people. 

[vogie]

24 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I agree that those terms are how referendums of very important issues should be hold. 

 

The problem is, that requiring those reasons, pretty much invalids the whole Brexit referendum in 2016. Had those rules been applied, Brexit would not have happened, Brexit would not had even majority if the British living abroad had been able to vote. 

 

10 years is probably too long time during these turbulent times. 4 years might be better as it allows the dust to settle after Brexit for people to see to which way the UK is developing towards. 

 

If UK is showing good signs and the relationship with EU is close and fulfilling, then Scottish people would probably want to stay. If not, then it's time to get out. 

 

But even before that, it's time to listen to the Scottish people. 

Your biggest mistake here is referring to the SNP as the Scottish people, must do better!

[TheDark]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Your biggest mistake here is referring to the SNP as the Scottish people, must do better!

I wasn't. I'm not the one who must do better. 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, TheDark said:

I wasn't. I'm not the one who must do better. 

So do you have any evidence that the Scots (one T by the way) wish to leave our union. 

[TheDark]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

So do you have any evidence that the Scots (one T by the way) wish to leave our union. 

So do you have any evidence otherwise after England decided to leave the EU?

 

You did say.. 

20 minutes ago, vogie said:

Your biggest mistake here is referring to the SNP as the Scottish people, must do better!

.. to which I replied accordingly. 

 

I'm not keen to participate in discussion, where you jump around like a rabbit in a field, while an eagle is watching for a snack from above. 

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, TheDark said:

So do you have any evidence otherwise after England decided to leave the EU?

 

 

It was the United Kingdom that voted , England didnt solely vote 

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Centre for Economic Policy Research has published a paper showing that, to date, Brexit has, so far, cost the average household £870 a year. 

 

https://cepr.org/active/publications/discussion_papers/dp.php?dpno=14176

A bit about this CEPR from their own site:

 

CEPR has a diverse funding base. Funds are raised from the private and public sector, and from foundations. Corporate Members in the financial, private and public sectors in CEPR's membership programme provide core income. They include firms such as investment banks, consultancies, asset managers and government agencies. The financial sector currently makes up two thirds of the membership base. However there is a trend toward broadening the membership base among the other sectors. We now have, for example, the support of most European Union Central Banks as well as the ECB, World Bank, IMF, EBRD and the BIS. 

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, TheDark said:

So do you have any evidence otherwise after England decided to leave the EU?

 

You did say.. 

.. to which I replied accordingly. 

 

I'm not keen to participate in discussion, where you jump around like a rabbit in a field, while an eagle is watching for a snack from above. 

Squaak!

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, TheDark said:

I agree that those terms are how referendums of very important issues should be hold. 

 

The problem is, that requiring those reasons, pretty much invalids the whole Brexit referendum in 2016. Had those rules been applied, Brexit would not have happened, Brexit would not had even majority if the British living abroad had been able to vote. 

 

10 years is probably too long time during these turbulent times. 4 years might be better as it allows the dust to settle after Brexit for people to see to which way the UK is developing towards. 

 

If UK is showing good signs and the relationship with EU is close and fulfilling, then Scottish people would probably want to stay. If not, then it's time to get out. 

 

But even before that, it's time to listen to the Scottish people. 

10/10 for trying. ????

 

That makes it very trying.

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

So do you have any evidence that the Scots (one T by the way) wish to leave our union. 

I am very disappointed by your approach vogie - with only 37% of the UK electorate backing Brexit, and the referendum win little more than a shabby toe poke in the most mendacious of ways, you are standing righteous while simultaneously denying any claim that the party that just won 45% of Scottish votes has a mandate to enact their manifesto. 

 

We get that you are overjoyed at Brexit and while we think it is madness, we respect your wishes to move forward with it. By the same token, it would be nice if you would also respect the fact that the vast majority of my county didn't want it, and considers it to be an act of folly. 

 

And most importantly, do not take the votes of the 55% who voted for parties other than the SNP as being 55% support for Brexit - we still (and I use we with confidence here) see Brexit as madness. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am very disappointed by your approach vogie - with only 37% of the UK electorate backing Brexit, and the referendum win little more than a shabby toe poke in the most mendacious of ways, you are standing righteous while simultaneously denying any claim that the party that just won 45% of Scottish votes has a mandate to enact their manifesto. 

 

We get that you are overjoyed at Brexit and while we think it is madness, we respect your wishes to move forward with it. By the same token, it would be nice if you would also respect the fact that the vast majority of my county didn't want it, and considers it to be an act of folly. 

 

And most importantly, do not take the votes of the 55% who voted for parties other than the SNP as being 55% support for Brexit - we still (and I use we with confidence here) see Brexit as madness. 

And twisting the numbers (37%) to suggest that there was very little support for leaving the EU when infact it was one of the biggest turnouts for an election/referendum in our history is not like you at all. 

The "vast majority didn't want Brexit" you say, when infact 52% voted for it and 48% voted against it in the same way that in the Scottish referendum 55% voted to remain in our union whilst only 45% voted to break up our union.

Whether I am "overjoyed" or not is of very little importance to the democratic decision of the British electorate, we voted to leave as a job lot and not as seperate entities.

And you must not take for granted that because 45% voted for the SNP that automatically means they wish to break up the United Kingdom, they do not.

 

[evadgib]

This would be sorted once and for all by asking the entire Kingdom. Why aren't SNP doing that?

(Rhetorical, the answer is blatantly obvious)

[blazes]

I'm puzzled as to why or how this thread has lasted all of three weeks as of today!!

 

After all, even if this guy becomes leader of the party, he is doomed to defeat at the 2024 election.  He is another Kinnock, full of sound and ... erm...fury, signifying nothing.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, vogie said:

Fact: The Scots have had a referendum already on independence. Are you denying this?

Good attempt at distraction, but this was your statement.

 

"But first you must honour the promise that both Sturgeon and Salmond gave to the Scottish people, once in a lifetime and generation statement."

 

So called "facts" require evidence, so again, no evidence that a promise was ever made would make it a delusion.

We await your evidence with bated breath.

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Good attempt at distraction, but this was your statement.

 

"But first you must honour the promise that both Sturgeon and Salmond gave to the Scottish people, once in a lifetime and generation statement."

 

So called "facts" require evidence, so again, no evidence that a promise was ever made would make it a delusion.

We await your evidence with bated breath.

 

Well wait no longer Mr Twisty.

 

Alex Salmond has been accused of attempting to rewrite history after he dismissed as a “collective myth” his promise before the 2014 independence referendum that there would not be a rerun for a generation or even a lifetime.

The former First Minister claimed he had not used the phrase “once in a lifetime” in a 2014 television interview to describe the vote and insisted he had instead said it was the “opportunity of a lifetime.”

However, footage and an official transcript of the interview showed he did use the “once in a lifetime” phrase when asked whether he would pledge not to “bring back another referendum” if the nationalists lost.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/19/alex-salmond-accused-rewriting-history-lifetime-referendum-pledge/

 

But whatever evidence is placed in front of you, you are all too willing to dismiss it, so I look forward to your dismissal of this too.

 

 

 

 

 

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, vogie said:

So do you have any evidence that the Scots (one T by the way) wish to leave our union. 

Bit of a meaningless enquiry as that evidence can only come from holding a referendum.