1 hour ago, jayboy said:

I don't think an irrelevant bit of whataboutery can disguise the dishonesty of suggesting everything is getting better in Scotland under the SNP. There is a competence issue which can't be wished away.

There seems to be a fair bit o' this going on in this derailed thread...????

 

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

No I really don't want to debate the undeniable decline in Scottish educational standards with you.All those responsible for education , including the Scottish Government, know this to be the case and are trying to do something about it, as I understand it with some very promising early success in reversing the damage.

 

However it seems a waste of everybody's time to debate with someone who is in denial there's been a problem.The subject only came up because of the absurd North Korean type claim that everything was just getting better and better under the SNP Government..

Clearly the education issur is too complex for you as you have proven yourself incapable of delving beneath the headlines. 

 

If you want to keep it simple, after 10 years in power, the SNP outperforms every other party at every count. Why do you think that is if they aren't delivering? 

 

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Clearly the education issur is too complex for you as you have proven yourself incapable of delving beneath the headlines. 

 

If you want to keep it simple, after 10 years in power, the SNP outperforms every other party at every count. Why do you think that is if they aren't delivering? 

 

Oh dear.How utterly feeble.

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

So what do we call the 37% of Brits who voted to remove us from the EU? 

People who got off their backsides and bothered to vote.

On 1/9/2020 at 8:03 AM, JonnyF said:

On 1/8/2020 at 10:11 PM, Enki said:

 

If they are from the EU and wish to stay then they can. It's a simple process and they've had 2 years to sort it out.

No, they had not ... as during the last two years nothing really happened, so what exactly should they sort out?

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

I don't think an irrelevant bit of whataboutery can disguise the dishonesty of suggesting everything is getting better in Scotland under the SNP. There is a competence issue which can't be wished away.

You started it with your "What about this then?" snipe over education.

I countered with "What about this then?" over the horrific state of the NHS in England.

So what about the competence of the Conservatives? 

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Oh dear.How utterly feeble.

Well debated. Thats really powerful stuff. No way could we ever survive independence when you present overwhelming arguments like that.

31 minutes ago, Enki said:

No, they had not ... as during the last two years nothing really happened, so what exactly should they sort out?

Which side of their bread is buttered.

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

You say "absolute garbage" but you are flying in the face of all the evidence.The understanding was very wide spread and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

Where I would agree with NIcola Sturgeon is that the matter should be reconsidered if the situation changes materially.I further agree that the position of the SNP has greatly improved although still falling well clear of majority support in Scotland.The elections in 2021 will be critical.If there is an SNP landslide I feel there will be a very strong case to accede to a second referendum.There's all to play for.

What evidence?

Johnson said he would rather be dead in a ditch. Why is he not dead in a ditch then? Democracy must be halted until Johnson is dead in a ditch.

 

Do you see how pathetic and weak your points are?

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

The BoE controls Sterling interest rates, printing, supply and everything else. Stay up there on Planet Dream if you like.

Just like it does while we remain in this pathetic one sided union.

Keep your head in the sand.

3 hours ago, jayboy said:

I think it is.As I hope I had made clear a case is building up for a second referendum.My point was to rebuff the dishonesty of suggesting that at the time of the first referendum there wasn't a pretty universal agreement that this was a once in a generation event.

There was no universal agreement about it being a once in a generation event. We did this already.

Stop posting lies.

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

There was no universal agreement about it being a once in a generation event. We did this already.

Stop posting lies.

This is known as a "tu quoque" approach - just childishly repeating my charge of dishonesty.Sorry, won't bite.

 

For those who might be interested just check news reports etc of the time.

Just now, jayboy said:

This is known as a "tu quoque" approach - just childishly repeating my charge of dishonesty.Sorry, won't bite.

 

For those who might be interested just check news reports etc of the time.

Where is the legally binding commitment to it being once in a generation? 

I know whats wrong here. You little Englander Brexiteers are terrified of your own actions.

You are determined that Scotland should remain because a successful Scotland in the EU will highlight on a daily basis what a disaster Brexit is going to be.

You are determined that the whole of the UK should burn alongside you.

 

 

15 hours ago, jayboy said:

You say "absolute garbage" but you are flying in the face of all the evidence.The understanding was very wide spread and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

Where I would agree with NIcola Sturgeon is that the matter should be reconsidered if the situation changes materially.I further agree that the position of the SNP has greatly improved although still falling well clear of majority support in Scotland.The elections in 2021 will be critical.If there is an SNP landslide I feel there will be a very strong case to accede to a second referendum.There's all to play for.

"Evidence" - are you trying to say that "once in a generation" was part of the Scottish Referendum Bill. As we well know from Bojo, off the cuff remarks have little meaning, unless of course you are "letterbox".

 

One day people will wake up to the fact that elections and referendums are not interchangeable. Only the naive and manipulative could think that a definitive answer to a single issue can be obtained from elections.

13 hours ago, evadgib said:

There seems to be a fair bit o' this going on in this derailed thread...????

 

Do you really think that Brexit, second votes and Scotland are not related.

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I know whats wrong here. You little Englander Brexiteers are terrified of your own actions.

You are determined that Scotland should remain because a successful Scotland in the EU will highlight on a daily basis what a disaster Brexit is going to be.

You are determined that the whole of the UK should burn alongside you.

???????????????????????????? would first have to get in to the ???????? and that certainly won't be quicker than ???????? were in leaving.

 

How do you think 5.5M ???????????????????????????? will out perform 55M ????????????????????????????afterwards?

 

I'm all ???????? .

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by evadgib

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

???????????????????????????? would first have to get in to the ???????? and that certainly won't be quicker than ???????? were in leaving.

 

How do you think 5.5M ???????????????????????????? will out perform 55M ????????????????????????????afterwards?

 

I'm all ???????? .

5.5 million with an NHS will outperform 55 million with no NHS.

30 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

5.5 million with an NHS will outperform 55 million with no NHS.

A quick look at the Scottish rugby, football and cricket teams should tell us how they fare when they are left to sort it out themselves ????. Bitter infighting followed by embarrassing results.

 

The more I think about it the more I support Scottish "independence". They can board the EU train right before it crashes off the rails. It will be highly amusing.

56 minutes ago, sandyf said:

"Evidence" - are you trying to say that "once in a generation" was part of the Scottish Referendum Bill. As we well know from Bojo, off the cuff remarks have little meaning, unless of course you are "letterbox".

 

One day people will wake up to the fact that elections and referendums are not interchangeable. Only the naive and manipulative could think that a definitive answer to a single issue can be obtained from elections.

You are attempting to defend the indefensible.The "once in a generation" undertaking was not codified anywhere.It was however a pretty much universal understanding.Circumstances change however, including the advent of Brexit, so that if there is a further consolidation of SNP support in Scotland (remember the first past the post system hides the fact they don't yet have majority support in Scotland), a second referendum will be hard for Westminster to deny.The 2021 elections in Scotland will  be critical.

 

All of this has been repeated several times in this thread.

Just now, jayboy said:

You are attempting to defend the indefensible.The "once in a generation" undertaking was not codified anywhere.It was however a pretty much universal understanding.Circumstances change however, including the advent of Brexit, so that if there is a further consolidation of SNP support in Scotland (remember the first past the post system hides the fact they don't yet have majority support in Scotland), a second referendum will be hard for Westminster to deny.The 2021 elections in Scotland will  be critical.

 

All of this has been repeated several times in this thread.

There was no universal understanding it would be a one off until Westminster decides otherwise.

None.

Its simply a phrase unionists hide behind because they fear what another referendum result will bring. If you guys are so confident that the union is a good thing then lets have the referendum and you can kill off calls for independence for the next 30 years.

Not so confident though are you?

16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

There was no universal understanding it would be a one off until Westminster decides otherwise.

None.

Its simply a phrase unionists hide behind because they fear what another referendum result will bring. If you guys are so confident that the union is a good thing then lets have the referendum and you can kill off calls for independence for the next 30 years.

Not so confident though are you?

Your bluster can't hide the truth.The once in the generation belief is a matter of record.As to the position now I doubt whether we actually disagree with very much.But your refusal to accept the simple truth of the "once in a generation" aspect - which is so easily verified - doesn't make you a very credible source.

 

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by jayboy

28 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

There was no universal understanding it would be a one off until Westminster decides otherwise.

None.

Its simply a phrase unionists hide behind because they fear what another referendum result will bring. If you guys are so confident that the union is a good thing then lets have the referendum and you can kill off calls for independence for the next 30 years.

Not so confident though are you?

If you're serious why not get the entire Kingdom to vote?

 

(???????????????????????????? would be RTU'ed so fast they'd wake up in ???????? cira 1707!)

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by evadgib

57 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Your bluster can't hide the truth.The once in the generation belief is a matter of record.As to the position now I doubt whether we actually disagree with very much.But your refusal to accept the simple truth of the "once in a generation" aspect - which is so easily verified - doesn't make you a very credible source.

 

Right so a throw away remark prior to the referendum is now binding is it?

 

 

What about these guys? Why are we not compelled to remain in the single market because of their remarks?

 

 

So what did he do? He went and asked for an extension.

So its only SNP persons who must be utterly held to every remark they make.

Liars in Vote leave can say and do as they wish?

 

Usual hypocrisy from Brexiteers. Do as we say not as we do. 

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by Rookiescot

30 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Right so a throw away remark prior to the referendum is now binding is it?

 

 

What about these guys? Why are we not compelled to remain in the single market because of their remarks?

 

 

So what did he do? He went and asked for an extension.

So its only SNP persons who must be utterly held to every remark they make.

Liars in Vote leave can say and do as they wish?

 

Usual hypocrisy from Brexiteers. Do as we say not as we do. 

 

Edited January 11, 20206 yr by jayboy

3 hours ago, jayboy said:

Your bluster can't hide the truth.The once in the generation belief is a matter of record.As to the position now I doubt whether we actually disagree with very much.But your refusal to accept the simple truth of the "once in a generation" aspect - which is so easily verified - doesn't make you a very credible source.

 

Sing it again Jimmy!

 

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

The "once in a generation" undertaking was not codified anywhere.It was however a pretty much universal understanding.

You are quite entitled to believe what you want, doesn't make it a fact.

 

NS will follow due process and take each step in turn, that is a fact.

On the 19th December a formal request was made for a Section 30 order and the government said a formal answer would be made in the new year.

She is probably well aware of what the answer will be and the next step will already be in the pipe line.

Bit naive to think she will wait to 2021 when she can hold a consultative referendum any time she wants.

After all, the trump card cannot be played until after Jan 31st.

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are quite entitled to believe what you want, doesn't make it a fact.

That's what ten year old girls say to each other in arguments.Why not man up and accept the truth. I can't quite see why you and a few others are making fools of yourselves on this historic and not particularly important point.How many times do I have to say that circumstances have changed.Nobody is seriously holding the Scottish Government to account, nor is there any legal obligation.You know all this of course.

 

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

NS will follow due process and take each step in turn, that is a fact.

On the 19th December a formal request was made for a Section 30 order and the government said a formal answer would be made in the new year.

She is probably well aware of what the answer will be and the next step will already be in the pipe line.

Bit naive to think she will wait to 2021 when she can hold a consultative referendum any time she wants.

After all, the trump card cannot be played until after Jan 31st.

Agreed but my point is that if the 2021 Elections go very well, she will hold most of the winning cards.The imponderables are how relationships develop with the Westminster Government, how Brexit impacts and how the SNP Government performs.

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Sing it again Jimmy!

 

Wonder where i,d seen her before

3 hours ago, jayboy said:

That's what ten year old girls say to each other in arguments.Why not man up and accept the truth. I can't quite see why you and a few others are making fools of yourselves on this historic and not particularly important point.How many times do I have to say that circumstances have changed.Nobody is seriously holding the Scottish Government to account, nor is there any legal obligation.You know all this of course.

 

Agreed but my point is that if the 2021 Elections go very well, she will hold most of the winning cards.The imponderables are how relationships develop with the Westminster Government, how Brexit impacts and how the SNP Government performs.

But you keep reiterating that somehow "once in a generation" is somehow written in tablets of stone.

Which it is not and never has been.

This slogan seems to be some kind of comfort blanket to which you hold on to.

Make the compelling case for remaining in the union.

Go ahead I triple dare you  ????????????????????