UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[sanuk711]

On 1/6/2020 at 9:54 AM, webfact said:

UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

Gosh someone in the Labour party has got it right for once..........

[jayboy]

On 1/8/2020 at 3:56 PM, RuamRudy said:

Only just? We have firmly rejected the nasty party and the other British Nationalist parties for 10 years. That's why life is Scotland has improved significantly in the last decade.

You seem so confused that it's scarcely worth engaging with you.Still for what it's worth your contention is simply untrue.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2019-12-03/new-figures-show-long-term-education-decline-as-scotland-falls-behind-england/

Edited January 10, 2020 by jayboy

[nauseus]

On 1/8/2020 at 9:09 PM, Enki said:

The UK does not pay one billion pounds per month. They are just slightly above net payer .... they get so much money from the EU their contribution is nearly eaten away ...

The UK is the second highest net contributor - our money is certainly eaten away - but not by us. 

[nauseus]

18 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Scotland is a country not a region.

 

It will be if you get into the EU.

[Rookiescot]

37 minutes ago, nauseus said:

You can use them but you won't control them. So, if you use them then forget joining the EU.

 

Not the case at all and it has been pointed out to you many times.

[Rookiescot]

16 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It will be if you get into the EU.

Why would Scotland no longer be a country if it joins the EU?

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, jayboy said:

Of course it doesn't particularly as the previous referendum was agreed to settle the matter for a generation.

 

Absolute garbage, never any agreement, an ad lib comment with as much validity as "dying in a ditch".

 

Salmond has since dismissed the comment as a personal view rather than party policy, and in any case his successor Nicola Sturgeon has claimed that a significant and material change in circumstances – i.e. Britain voting to leave the EU – justify a second ballot. But the phrase is still being used by their enemies as a stick with which to beat the SNP: only last month did Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, tried to hold Scotland’s ruling party to the “once in a generation” standard in a speech in the Scottish Parliament.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/10/scottish-referendum-vote-was-supposed-be-once-gene

 

Bojo would do well to remember his own comments - "John McDonnell, I will join you. I will lie down in front of those bulldozers and stop the construction of that third runway."

[sawadee1947]

On 1/6/2020 at 7:02 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

Boris, go for it, do your best!

The best??????? 

Would be cheating and lying. 

I would be ashamed to have such a liar as PM. 

But hey! You learned from the country you are living in? ????

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, kingdong said:

Do you honestly think the eu would let Scotland rejoin? Look at what would happen then,Catalonia,the Basque region and several other regions wanting independence and  then come back?,dream on.

You are quite entitled to believe that apples are oranges.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, kingdong said:

Like greece?

It may come as a surprise to you but Greece is a member of the EU.

[Rookiescot]

38 minutes ago, jayboy said:

You seem so confused that it's scarcely worth engaging with you.Still for what it's worth your contention is simply untrue.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2019-12-03/new-figures-show-long-term-education-decline-as-scotland-falls-behind-england/

It is starting to turn around though.

 

South of the border its not very good at all.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/09/ae-waiting-times-worst-record-medics-say-nhs-knees/

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

I think where your arguement falls flat on its face is that the Scots don't want to break up the Union,

 

You are probably right. The people of Scotland generally want to be part of the EU and probably the majority would prefer to do that as part of the UK. David Cameron's promise to give Scotland a greater say in EU matters swayed many in the 2014 referendum.

However brexit has removed that path forward so now the people of Scotland are faced with a binary choice, stay with England or join Europe. It is up to the people to make that choice.

Make no mistake brexit has turned this into a major issue and it is not going to go away.

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Most citizens of the UK don't have a problem with democracy, why would the SNP.

But that's just it - the collective you seem to be think that the 43% o people who voted Tory gives Johnson a mandate to complete Brexit, but the 45% of Scots who voted for the SNP means that independence is dead in the water. Utter hypocrisy of the rankest kind.

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are probably right. The people of Scotland generally want to be part of the EU and probably the majority would prefer to do that as part of the UK. David Cameron's promise to give Scotland a greater say in EU matters swayed many in the 2014 referendum.

However brexit has removed that path forward so now the people of Scotland are faced with a binary choice, stay with England or join Europe. It is up to the people to make that choice.

Make no mistake brexit has turned this into a major issue and it is not going to go away.

We all cannot get what we want, there will be losers, there will be winners, we all voted to either leave or remain within the EU, leave won and despite all the skullduggery in parliament, last nights vote for the withdrawal agreement achieved a majority of 90 votes although all those nominated for the leadership of the Labour Party all voted againgst the bill, still going againgst the wishes of the electorate, will they ever learn?

 

The Scots have made their choice and the SNP can bully the rest of the Scots as much as they like, Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain within the UK. Once in a generation referendum don't happen that often, certainly not as often as the SNP would like anyway. It is time the SNP realised that there are other Scots in Scotland that do not agree with them.

 

However let's look at the evidence, 1. The SNP has had their referendum and lost miserably.

2. All polls are suggesting that the SNP are still in the minority.

 

If I went on as much as Ian Blackford in Westminster my mother would have slapped the back of my legs, it's about time he turned his repetative monotonous tones into something more constructive that would help Scotlands problems and stop boring everybody at PMQTs, the same goes for some SNP supporters.

Edited January 10, 2020 by vogie

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

You seem so confused that it's scarcely worth engaging with you.Still for what it's worth your contention is simply untrue.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2019-12-03/new-figures-show-long-term-education-decline-as-scotland-falls-behind-england/

If reasonable and rational discussion is, as appears, beyond you, then by all means put me on ignore. It won't make you correct in what you say, but your awareness of the true reality of how Scotland genuinely benefits from the SNP is irrelevant.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Absolute garbage, never any agreement, an ad lib comment with as much validity as "dying in a ditch".

 

Salmond has since dismissed the comment as a personal view rather than party policy, and in any case his successor Nicola Sturgeon has claimed that a significant and material change in circumstances – i.e. Britain voting to leave the EU – justify a second ballot. But the phrase is still being used by their enemies as a stick with which to beat the SNP: only last month did Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, tried to hold Scotland’s ruling party to the “once in a generation” standard in a speech in the Scottish Parliament.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/04/10/scottish-referendum-vote-was-supposed-be-once-gene

 

Bojo would do well to remember his own comments - "John McDonnell, I will join you. I will lie down in front of those bulldozers and stop the construction of that third runway."

You say "absolute garbage" but you are flying in the face of all the evidence.The understanding was very wide spread and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

Where I would agree with NIcola Sturgeon is that the matter should be reconsidered if the situation changes materially.I further agree that the position of the SNP has greatly improved although still falling well clear of majority support in Scotland.The elections in 2021 will be critical.If there is an SNP landslide I feel there will be a very strong case to accede to a second referendum.There's all to play for.

[jayboy]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If reasonable and rational discussion is, as appears, beyond you, then by all means put me on ignore. It won't make you correct in what you say, but your awareness of the true reality of how Scotland genuinely benefits from the SNP is irrelevant.

Huh? Do you simply propose to ignore the horrific decline in educational standards in Scotland.Many of my Scottish friends are appalled.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

It is starting to turn around though.

 

South of the border its not very good at all.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/09/ae-waiting-times-worst-record-medics-say-nhs-knees/

I don't think an irrelevant bit of whataboutery can disguise the dishonesty of suggesting everything is getting better in Scotland under the SNP. There is a competence issue which can't be wished away.

[CG1 Blue]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:56 PM, sawadee1947 said:

On 1/6/2020 at 7:34 PM, CG1 Blue said:

We are legally leaving the EU on 31st Jan. Negotiations from this point are around our future trading relationship outside of the EU.  Can you explain what sequence of events you think could lead to a u-turn?  

Easy as that. 

The deal has to be approved by parliament. 

If not the endless story will start again. 

And if their is no deal then what is next? 

How's this theory going for you?

 

The Commons voted 330 to 231 in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51051178

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Not the case at all and it has been pointed out to you many times.

The BoE controls Sterling interest rates, printing, supply and everything else. Stay up there on Planet Dream if you like.

[nauseus]

24 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Huh? Do you simply propose to ignore the horrific decline in educational standards in Scotland.Many of my Scottish friends are appalled.

An inconvenient truth.. ignored each time the SNP gets reminded of it. 

[stevenl]

34 minutes ago, jayboy said:

You say "absolute garbage" but you are flying in the face of all the evidence.The understanding was very wide spread and it is dishonest to pretend otherwise.

 

Where I would agree with NIcola Sturgeon is that the matter should be reconsidered if the situation changes materially.I further agree that the position of the SNP has greatly improved although still falling well clear of majority support in Scotland.The elections in 2021 will be critical.If there is an SNP landslide I feel there will be a very strong case to accede to a second referendum.There's all to play for.

So in your opinion brexit is no material change.

[stevenl]

33 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Huh? Do you simply propose to ignore the horrific decline in educational standards in Scotland.Many of my Scottish friends are appalled.

Yes, when we were young everything was better.

[jayboy]

7 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So in your opinion brexit is no material change.

I think it is.As I hope I had made clear a case is building up for a second referendum.My point was to rebuff the dishonesty of suggesting that at the time of the first referendum there wasn't a pretty universal agreement that this was a once in a generation event.

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I don't think an irrelevant bit of whataboutery can disguise the dishonesty of suggesting everything is getting better in Scotland under the SNP. There is a competence issue which can't be wished away.

The problem is that objectivity is sorely lacking from the debate, and when the majority of 'information' misrepresents the data, either willfully or through a failure to understand it, then the truth is lost in the noise. 

 

Curriculum for Excellence and attainment in National Qualifications

"Over the past week, we have witnessed a reigniting of the rancorous debate about qualifications in Scotland’s Curriculum for Excellence. This debate has surfaced periodically since 2015, and has focused on allegedly falling attainment and a narrowing of curriculum choice in the Senior Phase of secondary schooling

 

...in our own analysis of the attainment data (on the level of secondary schools in Scotland for years 2011-2017) we have not seen evidence that the attainment at National 5 level and Higher level has deteriorated under the new curriculum, as is claimed by Scott. On the contrary, the attainment levels have risen, both in terms of the overall percentage passes (out of total number of entries into qualifications, grades A-C), as well as in terms of percentages of pupils who attained 5 A-C grades at National 5 and Higher levels."

 

[jayboy]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Yes, when we were young everything was better.

Foolish remark.Nothing to do with rose tinted spectacles.International and Scottish criteria have determined the decline of educational standards under the SNP.Shocking really in view of Scotland's historic strengths in this area.

[jayboy]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The problem is that objectivity is sorely lacking from the debate, and when the majority of 'information' misrepresents the data, either willfully or through a failure to understand it, then the truth is lost in the noise. 

 

Curriculum for Excellence and attainment in National Qualifications

"Over the past week, we have witnessed a reigniting of the rancorous debate about qualifications in Scotland’s Curriculum for Excellence. This debate has surfaced periodically since 2015, and has focused on allegedly falling attainment and a narrowing of curriculum choice in the Senior Phase of secondary schooling

 

...in our own analysis of the attainment data (on the level of secondary schools in Scotland for years 2011-2017) we have not seen evidence that the attainment at National 5 level and Higher level has deteriorated under the new curriculum, as is claimed by Scott. On the contrary, the attainment levels have risen, both in terms of the overall percentage passes (out of total number of entries into qualifications, grades A-C), as well as in terms of percentages of pupils who attained 5 A-C grades at National 5 and Higher levels."

 

Take your reservations up with Nicola Sturgeon who has conceded the failures in this area and the need to improve.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Why would Scotland no longer be a country if it joins the EU?

Because a provincial carve-up of Europe has always been a long-term aim of the EEC/EU.   

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Take your reservations up with Nicola Sturgeon who has conceded the failures in this area and the need to improve.

Is that really the best you have to offer in response? I actually thought you wanted to debate the matter, but clearly when faced with objectivity your understanding is revealed to be little more than a fervent grasp of sensational, biased headlines.  

[jayboy]

28 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is that really the best you have to offer in response? I actually thought you wanted to debate the matter, but clearly when faced with objectivity your understanding is revealed to be little more than a fervent grasp of sensational, biased headlines.  

No I really don't want to debate the undeniable decline in Scottish educational standards with you.All those responsible for education , including the Scottish Government, know this to be the case and are trying to do something about it, as I understand it with some very promising early success in reversing the damage.

 

However it seems a waste of everybody's time to debate with someone who is in denial there's been a problem.The subject only came up because of the absurd North Korean type claim that everything was just getting better and better under the SNP Government..