Agencies responsible for air quality are incompetent – Nida Poll

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

44 minutes ago, Joe Mama said:

The immediate solution for an end to the seasonal air pollution is very simple...Thai farmers need to quit burning off the waste from their fields of Sugar Cane, Pineapples, & Rice stalks! 

 

The odd thing about that issue is....

 

Agricultural burning, along with garbage burning, is a considerable source for air pollution in Thailand and including in BKK (along with diesel emissions, industry, construction etc.)

 

But in most all of the Thai news reports this year, the blame is placed almost entirely on vehicle emissions and rarely are the issues of agricultural and waste burning even mentioned as causes. 

 

It's almost like, someone somewhere in authority here really don't want anyone to focus on the agricultural and waste burning aspects of all this.

 

Or that the authorities somehow think that BKK is some kind of walled, isolated fortress that has its own supply of air and isn't impacted by the pollution that gets blown in from surrounding areas.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[GeorgeCross]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The odd thing about that issue is....

 

Agricultural burning, along with garbage burning, is a considerable source for air pollution in Thailand and including in BKK (along with diesel emissions, industry, construction etc.)

 

But in most all of the Thai news reports this year, the blame is placed almost entirely on vehicle emissions and rarely are the issues of agricultural and waste burning even mentioned as causes. 

 

It's almost like, someone somewhere in authority here really don't want anyone to focus on the agricultural and waste burning aspects of all this.

 

 

yeah wonder who could be setting that narrative..

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by GeorgeCross

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

If using those I think they need to be changed every 1-2 weeks to be effective.

 

Re Filtrete, that was my past experience with them as well in BKK... 1-2 weeks max use per installation. Then the sheets need to be replaced.

 

I've tested with Filtrete sheets at home with our own air con units as well. With pollution as bad as it is outside right now, I'd be very surprised if even new Filtrete sheets alone could bring down your indoor PM2.5 count to low single digits.

 

How much of the surface area of your air con filters are you covering with the Filtrete material?

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Fore Man]

35 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

they shouldn't need to, there's this thing called police work..

Thais in general ignore everything that doesn’t smack them in the face or cost them money. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but it’s just the way they are. Besides, many public servants, police included, sprang from rural agrarian stock and would find it difficult to crack down on people just like themselves and their families. My own BIL is a Thai police officer, the son of a poor farmer who entered the service as a patrolman and worked his way up to lt. col. He and I talked over the very issue and it’s plain that even someone of his grade would not want to enforce laws against agricultural burning because these are his ‘own people’. Ditto for the majority of the rank and file of the armed forces.
 

So what’s the answer then?  I think this huge problem won’t go away until the very top of the government takes on and demands a multifaceted approach that combines every resource that can be brought to bear. This would combine a team of Thai and global scientists, agronomists, chemical engineers, health professionals and many other specialities needed to solve the problems that one single agency cannot possibly take on. I’ve been extremely critical of the Thai inability to find a meaningful way forward and indeed it just may be too complex and too large for them. My Thai wife and I are leaving soon but with many loved ones remaining here I hope with all my heart that this massive problem can be overcome. 

[FinChin67]

5 hours ago, mickey rat said:

Nope, it's not getting better any time soon! We are moving on after nearly 27 years in Thailand. Life wearing a dust mask, air filters for every room and no exercise outside or breathing poison is where we draw the line. The noise, litter, and daily stupidity we could live with. 

Good decision.

[DrTuner]

32 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

How much of the surface area of your air con filters are you covering with the Filtrete material?

The example I gave is just a small room. About 24 sqm.

 

In the bigger rooms like living room ( about 120 sqm or so ) I have Xiaomi air purifiers, they can bring it down to 12-16 range in the evenings. In the day the doors are open too often so it hovers somewhere around 20-30.

 

Today it looks pretty bad. I can clearly see the smog when looking out towards Jomthien. Every evening after about 9pm or so I can smell the smoke wafting in while sitting outside, when the farmers have lighted up in the cover of the darkness.

Edited January 20, 2020 by DrTuner

[Thian]

5 hours ago, RayHaas said:

Here in Bangkok they keep the Polluting busses of the roads during daytime. As soon as the sun sets those polluting busses come out to play.

 

Nonsense mate! I just counted 20 of them on the roads. Those old crappy red buses...

[sead]

9 hours ago, Chrysaora said:

I'm a bit baffled.  I run an air purifier in each room.  Why would you think that keeping the windows closed would have much effect on the air particles in your home?

So your saying that you are using your air purifier with open windows? I think it's better to use it outside your house so all village can benefit

[zoza]

one hour outside Udon Thani and black skies three days I was coughing up specs of blood (I coughed that bad a tore something)

most people I spoke to had bad coughs Udon town seemed ok (no sugar cane) brought forward our return flights just a heads up for anyone (I know two people who are building houses in the Area) sad

Edited January 20, 2020 by zoza
sticking key

[Thian]

I was in the ricefields of nonthaburi this weekend and there were many fires caused by farmers....and they all still grow rice.

[Fore Man]

20 minutes ago, Thian said:

I was in the ricefields of nonthaburi this weekend and there were many fires caused by farmers....and they all still grow rice.

They won’t stop either until the government subsidizes their costs to buy gasoline-powered plows and fuel, or the market is willing to accept increased pricing for such crops.  Until these unlikely events happen a box of matches and a bit of kerosene handily solves their problem. It is a fact that there are places in Thailand where farmers already plow their crops under and pay their costs to do so out of pocket. Upper Nan Province is a good example. They’ve plowed their fields for hundreds of years, first with buffalo and now with petrol. But while this may work fine for a farm located on flat ground, such as in a valley, many terraced rice paddies and other crop fields are situated on mountain slopes, making it virtually impossible to operate any kind of plow.  And the problem wears on...

[Thian]

2 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

They won’t stop either until the government subsidizes their costs to buy gasoline-powered plows and fuel, or the market is willing to accept increased pricing for such crops.  Until these unlikely events happen a box of matches and a bit of kerosene handily solves their problem. It is a fact that there are places in Thailand where farmers already plow their crops under and pay their costs to do so out of pocket. Upper Nan Province is a good example. They’ve plowed their fields for hundreds of years, first with buffalo and now with petrol. But while this may work fine for a farm located on flat ground, such as in a valley, many terraced rice paddies and other crop fields are situated on mountain slopes, making it virtually impossible to operate any kind of plow.  And the problem wears on...

In those mountains they can grow durian or other fruit tree's.

 

And rice also grows in any soil...i mixed ricehusks with normal soil in my raised beds and i had a ricefarm 3 weeks later..it grows very well without flooding it.

 

The Thai government/police is the cause of every problem in Thailand...they just refuse to work...

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Yes, you are right.

But do Thais call the police on other Thais for burning?

Seems very few if any do.

I know that burning exists but not anywhere near me.

In Bangkok there are still some trucks and busses with a lot of black smoke. That is something the police could and should enforce all the time.

[bluebird729]

The biggest polluters are the Government Buses.

and, do you think the government will bother spending money to fix all of its buses ?

[overherebc]

19 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The odd thing about that issue is....

 

Agricultural burning, along with garbage burning, is a considerable source for air pollution in Thailand and including in BKK (along with diesel emissions, industry, construction etc.)

 

But in most all of the Thai news reports this year, the blame is placed almost entirely on vehicle emissions and rarely are the issues of agricultural and waste burning even mentioned as causes. 

 

It's almost like, someone somewhere in authority here really don't want anyone to focus on the agricultural and waste burning aspects of all this.

 

Or that the authorities somehow think that BKK is some kind of walled, isolated fortress that has its own supply of air and isn't impacted by the pollution that gets blown in from surrounding areas.

 

 

One is easy to tax. One requires expendature to administer fines that most likely won't be paid because no one has the money to pay them.

[herwin1234]

i bet all the respondents saying "the governement" isnt doing their job, dont drive a car or motorcycle but all drive a bicycle.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

On 1/20/2020 at 9:15 AM, Fore Man said:

PM2.5 and larger particles can easily enter into a home unless it has been hermetically sealed. Here in Chiang Mai we went as far as to stop using our leaky front door entrance, taping over all the seams abutting the jambs, and started using a side door from the garage. That door led into an anteroom which we could use as a barrier of sorts from the rest of the home. I added flexible silicone strips to the bottom of all doors to seal off that small gap that allowed air to flow into rooms. We taped over all window casings too and I found that these measures did improve our AQ somewhat.  The plain truth is that even after we took the extreme steps as I did, our home still leaks like sieves and the only really useful preventative measure we can take us to run air purifiers 24/7. We added HEPA filters to our ACs or learned how to correctly set our units already equipped with such filters. By doing all these things, the PM2.5 readings in our home were reduced from the 80s+ down to single digits. We employed Xiaomi purifiers, but their displays only show PM2.5 concentrations and not total contaminants in the air. But I can assume that by greatly lowering PM2.5, we are also lowering the total contamination as well.

 

Thailand refuses to get its act together and enforce laws already enacted.  People here will continue to pollute and burn everything they can with no regard for the impact on their own health, much less that of their families, neighbors and fellow citizens. We came to the difficult realization that the only meaningful action we could take was to pack up and leave for a more wholesome place to live.  It is not hard to predict the future for the Thai populace, one in which hundreds of thousands, if not millions, will suffer from lung and heart diseases, early onset of emphysema, cancer and cardiovascular problems. Mortality rates will reflect this extreme shortsightedness of the government and its people to prevent the inevitable tragedy that will befall this kingdom. When you see medical doctors leaving their jobs and take up positions in cleaner locales, then you realize just how bad things are. I bid you all good luck and for those of you who chose to, or are forced by circumstances to stay, I encourage you to take every preventative measure that you can.  If you can leave then do it and don’t procrastinate. Don’t be put off by wearing a mask when nobody else will.  It’s your life and your health at stake.  The Thai government could care less for whatever medical dangers they are forcing on its people and its guests through their ineptitude and apathy. But you can act on your own behalf...and you must. 

Thanks for a great post.

[DaveInSukhumvit]

On 1/20/2020 at 9:15 AM, Fore Man said:

 

 

21 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Wonder if you can elaborate on your above comments a bit?

 

In particular, I'm not aware of any true HEPA filtration that can be added to an existing split unit air con system that didn't come with its own manufacturer provided HEPA filtration filters, as some of the newest air cons have.

 

If you mean adding 3M Filtrete sheets, those don't provide HEPA filtration, though they would be better than just the standard plastic screen type filters that most AC units come with. Plus, 3M advises against covering the entire filter surface area with their Filtrete sheets, and leaving open surface area as recommended reduces the filtering capability even further.

 

Thanks for a couple of great posts

Edited January 21, 2020 by DaveInSukhumvit

[GeorgeCross]

1 hour ago, herwin1234 said:

i bet all the respondents saying "the governement" isnt doing their job, dont drive a car or motorcycle but all drive a bicycle.

 

i drive a car, bike and motorbike

 

i don't however burn 600,000 rai of sugar cane plantation annually.

 

[Fore Man]

55 minutes ago, DaveInSukhumvit said:

 

Thanks for a couple of great posts

Yes, you are correct. We tried adding 3M sheets to our older AC units and never felt like we changed anything. Our newer units featured HEPA filtration modes and we figured out how to set this operational mode. In our main living space, a downstairs living room dining room, a year-old Samsung AC equipped and switched into filter mode made a discernable difference as detected in our Xiaomi Pro air purifier readouts. You have to use every means to seal off air that infuses into your home and then employ air purifiers and smart AC to maintain healthy AQ. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Fore Man
Typo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

40 minutes ago, Fore Man said:

 In our main living space, a downstairs living room dining room, a year-old Samsung AC equipped and switched into filter mode made a discernable difference as detected in our Xiaomi Pro air purifier readouts. 

 

So, are you saying you bought a Samsung air con unit that says it can filter for PM2.5 (which seems to be a relatively recent offering here)?

 

If so, I'd be interested to hear more about just how that functions, and your sense of any pro's or con's associated with it?

 

I haven't seen many reviews thus far of just how well those kinds of units function, and whether they're a worthwhile choice.

 

Also, does it entail having to purchase and replace some kind of internal HEPA filter element periodically just as you'd have to do with an air purifier?

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[NanLaew]

Currently I am about 25 nautical miles offshore west Africa in the Atlantic Ocean with an AQI of 110 which is in the "unhealthy for sensitive groups" category.

 

Wear a mask and get over it.

[DrTuner]

11 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Wear a mask and get over it.

The way to get over it is to croak from a respitory attack. It's a permanent feature now. 

[Fore Man]

50 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

So, are you saying you bought a Samsung air con unit that says it can filter for PM2.5 (which seems to be a relatively recent offering here)?

 

If so, I'd be interested to hear more about just how that functions, and your sense of any pro's or con's associated with it?

 

I haven't seen many reviews thus far of just how well those kinds of units function, and whether they're a worthwhile choice.

 

Also, does it entail having to purchase and replace some kind of internal HEPA filter element periodically just as you'd have to do with an air purifier?

 

 

I’m not an expert on air conditioners, but many newer models offer built-in air purifying functionality. Exactly how this is done...whether via a special included filter or via negative ion generation...I cannot speak to. You need to do some online research then discuss their technological features and operation with stores that sell them where you live. Our remote has a special button that you depress once the unit is already running, which changes it into air purifying mode. The display panel confirms that this selection had been made by showing a crude icon of a filter (my guess). I can tell that this selection makes a difference almost immediately because my Xiaomi display shows a 7 to 10-point drop in PM2.5 density.  Ditto on my handheld PM2.5 tester.   Every year, new advances are designed into higher quality room air conditioners, so what I already have might well be outmoded.  Good luck.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Fore Man

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Fore Man said:

I’m not an expert on air conditioners, but many newer models offer built-in air purifying functionality. Exactly how this is done...whether via a special included filter or via negative ion generation...I cannot speak to. You need to do some online research then discuss their technological features and operation with stores that sell them where you live. Our remote has a special button that you depress once the unit is already running, which changes it into air purifying mode. The display panel confirms that this selection had been made by showing a crude icon of a filter (my guess). I can tell that this selection makes a difference almost immediately because my Xiaomi display shows a 7 to 10-point drop in PM2.5 density.  Ditto on my handheld PM2.5 tester.   Every year, new advances are designed into higher quality room air conditioners, so what I already have might well be outmoded.  Good luck.

 

Thanks for that...

 

If you know...  If you run just your air con in purifier mode right now, but don't run any separate air purifier units, what kind of room PM2.5 levels can the air con unit get down to..by itself?

 

 

[Fore Man]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks for that...

 

If you know...  If you run just your air con in purifier mode right now, but don't run any separate air purifier units, what kind of room PM2.5 levels can the air con unit get down to..by itself?

 

 

Hard to say, because we run three air purifiers around the clock.  I’d need to turn everything off for a few hours to normalize the house to more closely approximate ambient air outside. Don’t really want to do that with present numbers over 150 total AQI (US standard as reported on AirVisual).  I will however give you a SWAG that the AC running by itself would only put a minor dent in the AQ.  Let’s assume the measured PM2.5 is say, 200 μg outside, 100 inside and the purifiers have not been running, I’d guess a 24,000 BTU room AC fitted with air purifying functionality might bring the number down to somewhere in the 80s and require 30 minutes to do so.  I don’t expect that continuous use of that AC would bring it down much further. Clearly, a purpose-built air purifier will do a far better job and probably use less electricity, even compared with an inverter AC. 
 

Last year, Chiang Mai experienced a couple of days with total AQ recorded at just under 500 according to AirVisual.  I grabbed screenshots of those truly ugly days. Almost every day during Mid-March to late April was showing the index between 220 to 350.  The near misses at 500 were an anomaly, caused by fires close to the monitoring station. There actually were upcountry stations in our province experiencing temporary AQI of 900 to 1,000!   Sealing up the windows and leaky main doors made a big difference. I was a fanatic about keeping leaks to the outside closely controlled, but in doing so we kept the interior safe. This runs against the grain of every housewife who ever lived, who all feel it vital to air out their home daily. Unfortunately, many Thai housewives never took basic science or health subjects in school, indeed if they even ever went to school at all.  An articulate Thai cardiopulmonary specialist sat my family down and using illustrations, educated them.  End of problems after that episode and they became true believers.
 

Stay healthy and good luck!

[zappalot]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks for that...

 

If you know...  If you run just your air con in purifier mode right now, but don't run any separate air purifier units, what kind of room PM2.5 levels can the air con unit get down to..by itself?

 

 

 

Our Samsung AC is just as good as any 2.5 air purifier. Within about 30 minutes pm 2.5 is brought down to about just below 20 (from 70). Note that not every samsung model has a built in pm25 purification system. It is printed on the model if it has one.

 

In our lobby/living room we have the Hatari purifiers, found them to be the cheapest option. Works also very well.

 

We check using a Xiamoi Purifier with PM 2.5 digital meter to see the actual numbers.

Edited January 21, 2020 by zappalot

[Swimfan]

On 1/20/2020 at 11:16 AM, saengd said:

Signs have been posted around where we live in CM, no burning from now until end April, penalty THB 25,000/30,000, first time we've seen anything like that.....excellent.

Will they give you a receipt? 

[Sydebolle]

Not only these agencies fight for the most incompetent post. 

As the saying goes, the bottleneck is always on top of the bottle. 

Nobody ever suggested to halt burning of fields yet. Say, you fine the landOWNER with 100'000 Baht, if unwilling/unable to pay then auction off his land title deed - any questions still on how long it would take until that subject would be closed once and for good? 

Wishful thinking, I know .......... 

[Prairieboy]

On 1/20/2020 at 7:16 AM, saengd said:

Signs have been posted around where we live in CM, no burning from now until end April, penalty THB 25,000/30,000, first time we've seen anything like that.....excellent.

Now if only they had someone to enforce it.