Non-OA health insurance Chaeng Wattan madness

[Pib]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I read that the Thailand Health Insurance implementation affecting the "Type-OA" visa applicants/holders/extensions, was to be a trial, and I'm hoping in the future (as part of the "trial" assessment) that the Health Insurance verification criteria is improved, to assist both Thailand and those who already have excellent health insurance and those with adequate funds for self insurance.  I believe there are excellent ways to do such that are not difficult and would benefit Thailand , but who knows?  ... I guess time will tell.

It's no "trial" program.  The police order implementing the policy change made no mention of such.  The police order change was driven by a cabinet resolution to require people with OA visas to have medical insurance.,.and this ended up applying to old OA, retirement extension, no grandfathering.   The resolution also directed the govt to continue to look at expanding medical coverage requirements to other groups.  

 

Personally, I seriously doubt the Thai govt will allow self-insurance as usually that's just a person's excuse for "I'll worry about that later, I'll find some way to pay or someone to pay for me, maybe start a GoFundMe page."   Plus, I seriously doubt the govt wants to set up any program were a person could place a bond/locked deposit with the govt of X-amount to cover medical requirements....that's just problem prone and manpower intensive to setup.  

 

Now don't get me wrong, some people can indeed self insure themselves with savings, but most can not but they still use the self insure excuse.   These kind of people end-up making it hard on people who do have excellent foreign insurance coverage (private or foreign govt) which includes coverage in Thailand/worldwide.  

 

And you can bet any modification to the current program will be geared to making it easy as possible for immigration offices with little concern for the impact on the applicant.

 

[Deerculler]

20 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Don't wish to be a Mel Gibson conspiracy post but do Thai imm wish to kill off extensions based on original O-A? 

Seems like, smells like!

They could be do that and push the retirement people onto the Elite Visa which is more money for them 

Think about.

[jacko45k]

6 minutes ago, Deerculler said:

They could be do that and push the retirement people onto the Elite Visa which is more money for them 

Think about.

If there is any sly 'pushing' going on, I would expect it to be towards people using agents. 

[Deerculler]

If that is the case then they are shooting themselves in the foot 

They lose money.

[jacko45k]

14 minutes ago, Deerculler said:

If that is the case then they are shooting themselves in the foot 

They lose money.

Explain... when agents are used money which is not accountable is paid to Immigration Police directly. When an Elite Visa is purchased, the money is accountable  and goes to a separate Ministry. 

[JimHuaHin]

I think many of us who have been in Thailand for a few years know that Thai laws are selelectively enforced and differentialy interpreted by Thai government officials.

 

Thus, when we do jump through all the required hoops, there is no gurantee that at the end of the day we will get our visa extensions, it all depends on the government official processing our applications for extension.

 

All the frustration and stress currently being experienced by many expats who have done nothing wrong, who have met all the legal requirements, creates a great deal of uncertainty.

 

One gets the distinct impression that the powers-that-be want all or most of us out of Thaiand.

 

[BritTim]

43 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Explain... when agents are used money which is not accountable is paid to Immigration Police directly. When an Elite Visa is purchased, the money is accountable  and goes to a separate Ministry. 

While the terms of the agreement between Thailand Elite and Immigration are not clear, anyone who understands Thailand will assume senior officials in Immigration get a cut for each Easy Access visa issued. Personally, I see the very long approval process and threats of denials from Immigration some months ago as evidence that Immigration's deal with Thailand Elite was then being renegotiated.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Personally, I seriously doubt the Thai govt will allow self-insurance as usually that's just a person's excuse for "I'll worry about that later, I'll find some way to pay or someone to pay for me, maybe start a GoFundMe page."   Plus, I seriously doubt the govt wants to set up any program were a person could place a bond/locked deposit with the govt of X-amount to cover medical requirements....that's just problem prone and manpower intensive to setup. 

If setup right, there should be no additional work needed by Thai government.  If setup right, Thai Immigration will receive from the self insured foreigner BOTH a certified Thai document (filled in by Insurance company) that the adequate self Health Insurance is in place, and the Insurance company can enter such in the Thai immigration database, just like takes place currently for Health Insurance on the Thai list.

 

The insurance company offering such would need to be paid some TBD annual fee (10,000 baht?) and they also would have a large amount of money from the foreigner in bond, although it would be a debit on their ledgers.

 

And I have heard that such self insurance does exist elsewhere in the world, where it is formally implemented.  I've read internationally this is not something new.  I don't know what the typical annual fee is elsewhere (for administering such a self insurance) and I would be curious.

 

So this is not a revolutionary idea.  Self Insurance was also recommended (albeit not in such detail as I proposed above) by the Thai Department of Health.  That thou was not picked up by the Thai immigration for implementation. 

 

I do believe if a sufficient sized bond (1-million ? 2-million? and sufficient annual 'fee') was set, that such a compromise approach could be found that would benefit Thai hospitals, benefit Thai government, benefit Insurance companies, and benefit the self insured.

 

Unfortunately, almost like yourself, I too border on the verge of being skeptical that it will ever be adopted.  Still - I try to be positive here.

[Pib]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

And I have heard that such self insurance does exist elsewhere in the world, where it is formally implemented.  I've read internationally this is not something new.  I don't know what the typical annual fee is elsewhere (for administering such a self insurance) and I would be curious.

 

So this is not a revolutionary idea.  Self Insurance was also recommended (albeit not in such detail as I proposed above) by the Thai Department of Health.  That thou was not picked up by the Thai immigration for implementation. 

 

I've never read that the Ministry of Public Health--which is the Thai govt driver behind the insurance requirement--"recommended" self insurance.  Thai Immigration is really just assisting in the implementation along with other agencies....the Ministry of Public Health is the lead agency.   

 

The Ministry of Public Health did allow a person's foreign insurance to be used during the first year of a new OA Visa "if" it met Thai govt requirements and if the foreign insurance company would sign a specific document attesting to such (which very, very, very people have been able to get signed by their foreign insurance company).  

 

But in terms of the Ministry of Public Health or any other Thai govt agency like Immigration "recommending" a self insurance program I've never read/seen such.  Do you have a weblink(s) to where they recommended a self insurance program be established?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Self Insurance was also recommended (albeit not in such detail as I proposed above) by the Thai Department of Health. 

 

It was never recommended. It was mentioned once as a possibility under consideration at a very early consideration point in the government process, but obviously, was never enacted.

 

[DrJack54]

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

While the terms of the agreement between Thailand Elite and Immigration are not clear, anyone who understands Thailand will assume senior officials in Immigration get a cut for each Easy Access visa issued. Personally, I see the very long approval process and threats of denials from Immigration some months ago as evidence that Immigration's deal with Thailand Elite was then being renegotiated.

Not really follow this post. Recent thread re how long for approval. Answer was basically not long process.

Couple months back EV company stated 6th year not possible. Then seem to quickly back track on that. Perhaps business based comment.

Current thread from fella with expired EV with current permission of stay well into 6th year being told by imm that with reentry permit no issue for reentry. 

You have other info to the contrary?

Edited January 23, 2020 by DrJack54

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

It was never recommended. It was mentioned once as a possibility under consideration at a very early consideration point in the government process, but obviously, was never enacted.

I never kept the links, with the information on this, which I regret.  My recollection (fuzzy at best) was that the acceptance of international foreign insurance, and the acceptance of health insurance (ie the details and guidelines pertaining to the amendment to be sent to the Thai Cabinet) were jointly formulated by the Public Health Ministry, the Foreign Ministry, the Interior Ministry, the Immigration Bureau, the Office of Insurance Commission, the Thai General Insurance Association, and the Thai Life Assurance Association.    The Cabinet decision after reviwing recommendation, was much more general.

 

I recall after the Cabinet decision (and this was a link I could still find) that the Thai Health Services Secretary General when commenting on the new regulations, suggested that higher bank deposits may be required for foreigners who cannot purchase health insurance.  My reference: https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2019/05/14/health-insurance-foreigners-thailand-thai-government-visa-retirement-compulsory-foreign-men/  and from that article I quote:
 

The problem for many foreigners in Thailand will be pre existing conditions. The incidence of elderly foreigners with diabetes for instance is far higher than the Thai average which is currently at over 10% of the population. It is estimated that 15% of foreigners in Thailand have diabetes and this figure could be as high as 20% of those foreigners over 50 and up to 30% of those over 65. This week the Health Services Secretary General when commenting on the new regulations, suggested that higher bank deposits may be required for foreigners who cannot purchase health insurance . This is an urgent area where clarification is expected.

 

 

Of course this is 'water under the bridge', but IMHO it illustrates the potential need for self-insurance was given some thought in Thailand government circles, albeit clearly not followed through ....  and the possibility for having it (self insurance) regulated under Insurance Company (or other organisation) contracts could have been (and I think still could be) explored further.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by oldcpu

[gamini]

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

[Caldera]

6 minutes ago, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

If money isn't an issue, getting an Elite visa would work.

[jacko45k]

7 hours ago, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

Why doesn't he get an Elite Visa? 

[ubonjoe]

8 hours ago, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

It is only needed if he has a OA visa entry that he has or will extend. If he has one then he could go out and re-enter the country to get a non-o visa entry.

[mikebell]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:12 PM, holy cow cm said:

They are just making it as difficult as they possibly can is the bottom line.

Meanwhile in Vietnam......

[Vascoda]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:03 AM, TerraplaneGuy said:

So guess what, my Aetna policy starts on 12 February at 4:30 pm which means CW will be closed so I won’t be able to get the extension that day.

Are not all policies when for e.g. it says 12th Feb it means it starts when 12th Feb starts. That is 00:00 hour of 12 the february. Never heard of  a policy starting at 4:30PM. Does it mean if you have an emergency before 4:30PM, e..g 10Am you cant go to the hospital and have to wait till 4:30PM?

[Vascoda]

10 hours ago, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

Is your friend in Thailand now or he is contemplating to retire here? Lots of missing details. Nothing will happen now without detials. Are you expecting suggetions? Here is an option - he can come on a tourist visa/exemption, change it to Non O and then extension. There is always a solution. Instead of findning a solution or aksing for solution, most people like to complain in this board.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Vascoda

[TerraplaneGuy]

10 minutes ago, Vascoda said:

Are not all policies when for e.g. it says 12th Feb it means it starts when 12th Feb starts. That is 00:00 hour of 12 the february. Never heard of  a policy starting at 4:30PM. Does it mean if you have an emergency before 4:30PM, e..g 10Am you cant go to the hospital and have to wait till 4:30PM?

See my earlier post.  Aetna says by law all insurance policies of any kind in Thailand start and end at 4:30 pm.   Others confirm that.  So yes I expect you would not be covered prior to that time on the first day.  

[TerraplaneGuy]

Back to the main point here, it is clear that Immigration imposes irrational requirements that are outside the law.  What I wish is that at least they would publicize those requirements so we don’t have to go through the agonizing ritual of guessing each year and getting rejected.   Why can’t they simply post on the website a clear list of documents for each visa class so, absurd or not, we will know what to obtain and bring?  I’d like to see an expat movement pressing for that.  

[Martyp]

10 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

Back to the main point here, it is clear that Immigration imposes irrational requirements that are outside the law.  What I wish is that at least they would publicize those requirements so we don’t have to go through the agonizing ritual of guessing each year and getting rejected.   Why can’t they simply post on the website a clear list of documents for each visa class so, absurd or not, we will know what to obtain and bring?  I’d like to see an expat movement pressing for that.  

I wish the same. Even if different offices have different requirements a clear up-to-date website would work wonders. It doesn't even have to be an Immigration website. It could be a 3rd party website that has close contacts with a particular Immigration office. A good project for some enterprising Thai web developers. 

[holy cow cm]

46 minutes ago, mikebell said:

Meanwhile in Vietnam......

Also meanwhile in Siem Reap, according to TV member Nyezhov stating yesterday he is clearing out his condo, pulling up his Thailand anchor leaving to have fun with no more BS Immigration hoops to jump through as here has..

[rhodie]

11 hours ago, gamini said:

My friend who is 88 would like to spend his last few years in Thailand. He has ample funds for retirement visa deposit and anything else, No insurance company will ensure him at his age . So what happens now

Use an agent. That is what they want us to do. ???? 

[TerraplaneGuy]

6 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Use an agent. That is what they want us to do. ???? 

 

20 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I wish the same. Even if different offices have different requirements a clear up-to-date website would work wonders. It doesn't even have to be an Immigration website. It could be a 3rd party website that has close contacts with a particular Immigration office. A good project for some enterprising Thai web developers. 

In my view it would have to be by the Immigration Bureau itself because any daylight between them and a third party would give them the excuse to depart from what is posted.  It has to be official.  What I think is needed is a concerted effort by expats to pressure Immigration, using formal letters but also newspaper and FB publicity, to do the right thing. 

[Pib]

45 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

See my earlier post.  Aetna says by law all insurance policies of any kind in Thailand start and end at 4:30 pm.   Others confirm that.  So yes I expect you would not be covered prior to that time on the first day.  

Yeap...all my Thailand auto insurance policies, like my current LMG auto insurance policy, use the start-end time of 4:30pm....plainly shown on the coverage sheet.

[Martyp]

4 minutes ago, TerraplaneGuy said:

 

In my view it would have to be by the Immigration Bureau itself because any daylight between them and a third party would give them the excuse to depart from what is posted.  It has to be official.  What I think is needed is a concerted effort by expats to pressure Immigration, using formal letters but also newspaper and FB publicity, to do the right thing. 

I understand what you are saying but it will never happen. It is obvious that many people seek this very information online (TVF among others). The trustworthiness of any 3rd party website has to earned. The Thai visa advise Facebook group manages to give out pretty accurate information without allowing crazy rumors and speculation. That information of the FB group just needs to be put into a easily visible form on a website and then kept up-to-date. A well designed website would make it easy for administrators to keep it up-to-date.

 

Anyways . . . neither is like to happen. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Vascoda said:

Are not all policies when for e.g. it says 12th Feb it means it starts when 12th Feb starts. That is 00:00 hour of 12 the february. Never heard of  a policy starting at 4:30PM. Does it mean if you have an emergency before 4:30PM, e..g 10Am you cant go to the hospital and have to wait till 4:30PM?

 

Check any Thai insurance policies you may have, and then report back here what you find...  My Thai health insurance policies always start at 4:31 pm on a given day, and run thru 4:30 pm a year later.

 

[Alotoftravel]

I have Pacific cross medical policy for my o a extension which also starts at 4:30 PM.

 

I wonder if I will encounter the Same problem here in chiang mai immigration; must have insurance Started prior to the expiry of my visa When i renew, I plan to go 45 days to apply before visa expiry? 

 

I did ask Pacific cross if I should get insurance for “ additional time” before my visa expiry , they Can but there will be no certificate for the extra time which they cannot guarantee that immigration will accept. 

 

Cannot seem to do the right thing nor know when or what is the right thing To do

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, mikebell said:

Meanwhile in Vietnam......

I like Vietnam but the 3 month at a time Visa policy worries me more than the 1 year I get in Thailand.

 

You have to ask yourself how long they will continue to allow it if scores of Expats de-camp to there given that Cambodia has been talking about stricter checks on the 1 year "Business Visa" & even Philippines is debating whether to make changes to bar extensions to Visa on Arrival (i.e. the Visas that people from India/China etc... get) 

 

Hardly the basis for a long term retirement plan (I know, neither is Thailand anymore).