What is Honda S Matic CVT transmission?

[Agusts]

I read on various websites, including this:

 

https://hondanews.eu/eu/lv/motorcycles/media/pressreleases/127238/2018-honda-forza-300

 

That Honda uses S MATIC electronically controlled CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) on Forza 300 and also upgraded it to S MATIC (with phased auto shift mode) since a long time ago ...!?

 

Now I know how CVT works on most modern scooters,  seen it open on my old Suzuki 125i scooter and seen numerous YouTube videos of Honda Forza 300 CVT opened and re-assembled...

 

In no part I have seen any electronic comes to it, and what is that phased auto shift mode...!? Is it all fancy names to confuse and impress customers...? How does it any different than others...! 

[lemonjelly]

I have a feeling that the CVT, is electronically stepped to give that authentic manual gearbox feeling rather than a constant acceleration 

[VocalNeal]

But the stepping action means we cannot easily tweak the CVT. 

[Moonlover]

51 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

I have a feeling that the CVT, is electronically stepped to give that authentic manual gearbox feeling rather than a constant acceleration 

I've ridden CVT scooters for years. There are  no 'stepped' gear changes at all. That is complete nonsense.

 

The 'constant velocity' @Agusts actually refers to the speed of the engine. The electronic control unit (ECU), in essence monitors throttle input and aims to provide the best engine speed according to the demand.

 

If the throttle is opened hard, the engine speed will be set to give maximum toque to facilitate acceleration. The final output ratio will then be constantly adjusted to keep the engine speed constant as the bike accelerates.

 

When the rider backs off the throttle into cruise, the ECU will then adjust engine speed for the most economical setting. On my Earox I can see this in action because I can monitor fuel consumption. The Kms/liter reduces as I back off the throttle and the engine speed settles into a fairly constant one even though my speed might vary a little bit.

 

It may be a little more complex than that, but in essence that's what it's all about. Constant engine speed

[lemonjelly]

39 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I've ridden CVT scooters for years. There are  no 'stepped' gear changes at all. That is complete nonsense.

 

The 'constant velocity' @Agusts actually refers to the speed of the engine. The electronic control unit (ECU), in essence monitors throttle input and aims to provide the best engine speed according to the demand.

 

If the throttle is opened hard, the engine speed will be set to give maximum toque to facilitate acceleration. The final output ratio will then be constantly adjusted to keep the engine speed constant as the bike accelerates.

 

When the rider backs off the throttle into cruise, the ECU will then adjust engine speed for the most economical setting. On my Earox I can see this in action because I can monitor fuel consumption. The Kms/liter reduces as I back off the throttle and the engine speed settles into a fairly constant one even though my speed might vary a little bit.

 

It may be a little more complex than that, but in essence that's what it's all about. Constant engine speed

I know what CVT is. In cars they have electronically created the effect of changing up a gear at specified revs to please customers. That’s what my Honda Civic does. I have the feeling that the “s -matic” might be this, OP does mention “phased shift mode”. 

 

[Moonlover]

5 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

I know what CVT is. In cars they have electronically created the effect of changing up a gear at specified revs to please customers. That’s what my Honda Civic does. I have the feeling that the “s -matic” might be this, OP does mention “phased shift mode”. 

 

Ok I'll concede that. 

 

16 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

I know what CVT is. In cars they have electronically created the effect of changing up a gear at specified revs to please customers. That’s what my Honda Civic does. I have the feeling that the “s -matic” might be this, OP does mention “phased shift mode”. 

 

Ah, sorry I missed that bit! On the Forza there are 2 ratios named 'fast low speed reaction' and 'smart acceleration'. The ECU monitors throttle setting and road speed and decides which is the more appropriate engine speed. The result will be the same though. A constant engine speed to suit the situation.

 

Interestingly, since you mention cars, I find auto shift really boring when I'm driving one. I've always been a manual shifter. But when I'm riding a bike I love CVT. I have 2 now (although 1 is really hers ???? )

 

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

If the throttle is opened hard, the engine speed will be set to give maximum toque to facilitate acceleration.

Small correction: it will probably shift to the engine speed which has the highest power, not necessarily torque. They rarely are at the same RPM.

 

To the OP: I also can't find much about it but it sounds like Honda brought the fake gear shifts that they have in their cars to the scooter CVTs. I would like that feature if it had a manual mode. That way one could control engine breaking.

[lemonjelly]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Ok I'll concede that. 

 

Ah, sorry I missed that bit! On the Forza there are 2 ratios named 'fast low speed reaction' and 'smart acceleration'. The ECU monitors throttle setting and road speed and decides which is the more appropriate engine speed. The result will be the same though. A constant engine speed to suit the situation.

 

Interestingly, since you mention cars, I find auto shift really boring when I'm driving one. I've always been a manual shifter. But when I'm riding a bike I love CVT. I have 2 now (although 1 is really hers ???? )

 

I’m the opposite, I’ve happily succumbed to the lazy CVT driving style, took me a while to get used to it, only driven old manuals before. But the bike.... 6 speed twin pipes 650 ENFIELD is fun.

[Agusts]

Okay, so what you guys are saying is mainly the CVT mechanical parts are all the same as every other CVT and manufacturer,  but Honda plays with ECU to control the RPM of the engine and call it all those names.

 

Fair enough I guess. I did read some guys fiddle with ECU of Forza and get more acceleration and so on, because Honda adjusted it for better consumption, the other way is changing to lighter rollers of CVT variators...

 

As for proper auto+manual gear you can check out X-ADV 750cc of Honda, that has both, and I would have thought all these fancy tech might be on that bike, the Forza just goes mostly like any other auto scooter I have ridden, nothing fancy ....!

[canthai55]

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=368&lang=en

[VocalNeal]

11 hours ago, Agusts said:

the other way is changing to lighter rollers of CVT variators...

Of course maybe it isn't stepped and it is just marketing BS.

 

Seems Dr. Pulley sells weights for the 300 so maybe it is just marketing BS.

 

If the throttle has two selectable setting then it is throttle curve optimization or "pedal" mapping not CVT control  Something akin to RC/slotcar linear vs exponential.

Edited January 28, 2020 by VocalNeal

[Agusts]

5 hours ago, canthai55 said:

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=368&lang=en

I saw this before but can't register to see the doc,  if anyone managed send us the pdf if interesting...

Edited January 28, 2020 by Agusts

[ballbreaker]

The below is from Honda European news release on a 250cc Forza Z in 2004.  The OP's link is also a European new release for the 2018 Forza.  Does the new Forza in Thailand have the S-Matic or C-Matic CVT?

 

The electronically controlled Honda S-Matic offers the rider a dual-mode (D-mode, S-mode) automatic or six-speed manual transmission. The six-speed manual mode shifts as well as changing between D-mode and S-mode can be toggled with a switch located on the right-hand side of the handlebars. A signal from the ratio switch is fed to the Honda S-Matic transmission ECU, and the control motor is operated with sensor signals to change the position of the drive pulley, effecting gear change. Further, in six-speed manual mode, the unit automatically shifts down to first gear when the scooter is stopped. This allows the rider to enjoy the convenience of an automatic combined with the sportiness of a manual, all in one bike.

 

[Agusts]

1 hour ago, ballbreaker said:

The below is from Honda European news release on a 250cc Forza Z in 2004.  The OP's link is also a European new release for the 2018 Forza.  Does the new Forza in Thailand have the S-Matic or C-Matic CVT?

 

The electronically controlled Honda S-Matic offers the rider a dual-mode (D-mode, S-mode) automatic or six-speed manual transmission. The six-speed manual mode shifts as well as changing between D-mode and S-mode can be toggled with a switch located on the right-hand side of the handlebars. A signal from the ratio switch is fed to the Honda S-Matic transmission ECU, and the control motor is operated with sensor signals to change the position of the drive pulley, effecting gear change. Further, in six-speed manual mode, the unit automatically shifts down to first gear when the scooter is stopped. This allows the rider to enjoy the convenience of an automatic combined with the sportiness of a manual, all in one bike.

 

This all makes sense but it is not available on any Thai Forza old or new as far as I know, if this was available on old European Forza then that explains it. Again I have not heard of this on new EU or US or Thai versions of Forza... perhaps others can confirm !?

 

Maybe it was something introduced in 2004 in Europe but discontinued on new models. I know the auto+manual option is available now on X-ADV as I mentioned before...