Land office person refuses to allow sale of sister-in-laws house

[cliveshep]

Here's a cracker even for Thailand! My wife's sister is legally married but her Japanese husband left her 8 years ago to go back to Japan. He does not support either her or their son, now 21, and for the last 8 years I have had to support her and the boy. I also support another sister partially crippled who lives in their house and has done for years ever since her police husband was shot and killed in a gunfight with bad people.

 

Because with the high baht and poor exchange rate I am struggling to feed everyone and the 7 dogs we all own in the two households, so in anticipation of this when we bought our house 4 years ago we remodelled it and although it is not big we now have 5 bedrooms and 4 shower rooms and air-con in every room. The idea has always been that nephew and girlfriend who live together in his mother's house, and mother and the other sister will all move in with my wife and I. We have built extra rooms for the widowed sister as she has 3 little rescue dogs she dotes on so she will stay downstairs and we have made it possible for her to have a piece of garden, the others will have upstairs bedrooms as do my wife and I and we still got a guest bedroom,

 

So sister goes to Land Office because she will sell her little town-house. It is under 1 million and pretty scruffy but will allow her to buy another care after hers got written off by her son - a policeman in a pick-up totalled her car, put son and girlfriend in the hospital with facial glass cuts, and legged it. (The police say they cannot find him and insurance therefore won't pay out. A motorcyclist crushed between the two vehicles is now crippled for life - Thai police-work sucks).

 

Anyway, my long-winded point - Land Office person says new law in force, even though the sister has the house in her sole name she has to get the signature of the absent husband (somewhere in Japan) AND her son and all 3 get 1/3 of proceeds of sale. I say this has to be wrong because such a law would cripple any housing market, no one could sell and move up.

 

Can anyone knowledgeable tell us - is this Land Registry man shooting a <deleted> line or did Prayut Chan Ocha really make such a law as he says?

[cornishcarlos]

Tell her to apply for divorce on grounds of abandonment. Then when that's finalised she can sell her house.. 

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, cliveshep said:

Anyway, my long-winded point - Land Office person says new law in force, even though the sister has the house in her sole name she has to get the signature of the absent husband (somewhere in Japan) AND her son and all 3 get 1/3 of proceeds of sale. I say this has to be wrong because such a law would cripple any housing market, no one could sell and move up.

She told you, or the person in the land office told you?

Sounds like she doesn't want to sell the house and just made up a story.

No such laws exist.

[NanLaew]

17 minutes ago, cliveshep said:

Land Office person says new law in force, even though the sister has the house in her sole name she has to get the signature of the absent husband

It's an old law and I think only applies if the foreign husband's signature was obtained as part of the financial provenance/no claim malarkey at the time of a land purchase. I am not sure if it applies to a town house purchase. Ask a lawyer.

 

Either way and in my personal experience, although a purchase may have required the foreign husband's signature, in the event of a subsequent sale of said property and unlike the property purchase and registration, it doesn't stipulate that the foreign husband either has to attend in person or have his signature witnessed.

 

Can anyone write in Japanese?

 

YMMV.

 

PS: Regarding the preamble, if it wasn't for bad luck, etc., etc. ....

[docspinoff]

Sounds like this rules a good idea. Would protect falang with wife... But this could be right as I was told a falang can own the house but not the land. Admit if the lady wanted to sell the land the house would be worthless unless its a Thai house that can be moved 

[treetops]

Tell the sister and 21 year old nephew to find paid employment and you'll not have to struggle so much to feed them all, and it'll buy time to find a solution.

[OneZero]

Apparently, when the wife originally bought & registered the house (& land) at the land office, the husband never showed up to sign the forms which (in my interpretation) in effect state that the money for purchase was his wifes money alone (& thus he could make no claim on it (for 50% or whatever %) in event of divorce).  That is probably why the land office now refuses to allow sale, at least without further legal assistance (like the abandonment divorce).

 

Yes, see a lawyer to discuss filing for divorce due to abandonment.

 

[NanLaew]

36 minutes ago, OneZero said:

Apparently, when the wife originally bought & registered the house (& land) at the land office, the husband never showed up to sign the forms...

 

Did the OP say as much?

 

My personal experience is that a land purchase needed both my presence AND signature whereas the subsequent sale of the same land needed neither.

[URMySunshine]

Maybe this is a case for the Tea Money Monster to intercede in ?

[ThomasThBKK]

This is how it's correctly done, if you are married you need both signatures to sell.

Her husband owns 50% of the land in theory if it was bought during marriage.

 

sorry but in this case the blame is not on the land office, it's standard procedure. 

 

As already said, she need to get a divorce done, and then she can do it.

[dsj]

Here's an experience that I went thru. My wife bought some land in Prachuap Khiri Khan in 2010 (I gave her the money to buy), and I had to go the Land Office with her and sign papers that I give up claims to the land. Last month she went and sold it, and I had to sign a documents stating that I am aware of the sale, but I didn't have to go with her to the Land Office. It was pretty straight forward process.

[LukKrueng]

On 1/31/2020 at 12:11 PM, ThomasThBKK said:

This is how it's correctly done, if you are married you need both signatures to sell.

Her husband owns 50% of the land in theory if it was bought during marriage.

 

sorry but in this case the blame is not on the land office, it's standard procedure. 

 

As already said, she need to get a divorce done, and then she can do it.

Correct. Just have to add that this has nothing to do with 1 party being a foreigner. Every person - Thai or foreign - is being asked if married when transferring ownership of a property, and the spouse must give consent to the purchase /  sale of the property.

[jimn]

What was the point in you posting the first 3 paragraphs of your post. Do you want people to think you are a white knight or something. Just use your common sense here. Divorce the man first and then get an agent who knows someone in the land office. They will smooth it over with them for a fee.

[jackdd]

On 1/29/2020 at 5:48 PM, cliveshep said:

Here's a cracker even for Thailand! My wife's sister is legally married but her Japanese husband left her 8 years ago to go back to Japan. He does not support either her or their son, now 21, and for the last 8 years I have had to support her and the boy. I also support another sister partially crippled who lives in their house and has done for years ever since her police husband was shot and killed in a gunfight with bad people.

 

Because with the high baht and poor exchange rate I am struggling to feed everyone and the 7 dogs we all own in the two households, so in anticipation of this when we bought our house 4 years ago we remodelled it and although it is not big we now have 5 bedrooms and 4 shower rooms and air-con in every room. The idea has always been that nephew and girlfriend who live together in his mother's house, and mother and the other sister will all move in with my wife and I. We have built extra rooms for the widowed sister as she has 3 little rescue dogs she dotes on so she will stay downstairs and we have made it possible for her to have a piece of garden, the others will have upstairs bedrooms as do my wife and I and we still got a guest bedroom,

 

So sister goes to Land Office because she will sell her little town-house. It is under 1 million and pretty scruffy but will allow her to buy another care after hers got written off by her son - a policeman in a pick-up totalled her car, put son and girlfriend in the hospital with facial glass cuts, and legged it. (The police say they cannot find him and insurance therefore won't pay out. A motorcyclist crushed between the two vehicles is now crippled for life - Thai police-work sucks).

I would suggest you man up and tell them to find a job.

If they sell the house and move in with you they will be forever tied to your wallet.

Maybe that's your preferred situation, then nevermind.

[justin case]

get rid of dogs and let thai family fend for themselves

 

if your money runs out, you will see the EXIT on the door

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, justin case said:

get rid of dogs and let thai family fend for themselves

Perhaps you don't understand the Thai concept of 'family' (in decent circles) - much better than the western way. If you behave like a part of the family, you will be treated as such and if you need help, you too will get it. If you are distant, don't learn the language and don't take part in the family's activities (like a lot of westerners do) - you won't. Yes, on occasion, some Thai families take the P but those I know all help each other, all the time.

 

7 hours ago, justin case said:

if your money runs out, you will see the EXIT on the door

Again, maybe you are basing your statement on the type of people you associate with? My Thai friends have given me more help than any western person ever has. I still have a friendship with my ex mother in law (divorced 5 years ago!) - I just left Thailand, she gave me a lift to the airport and wouldn't even let me pay the tollway charges. There are good and bad people in every country. It all depends on the type of people you choose to be involved with.

[OneZero]

7 hours ago, justin case said:

get rid of dogs and let thai family fend for themselves

 

if your money runs out, you will see the EXIT on the door

No, keep the dogs.  If the money runs out the dogs will still be loyal.

[PETERTHEEATER]

In our 47 years of marriage my Thai wife has bought and sold eight properties, some land with house some land plots only. In each case during the purchase transaction at the Land Office I was required to sign the usual disclaimer that the money used to buy was my wifes and existed before marriage and that I have

no claim to the purchase (notwithstanding Thai law as to the division of assets on divorce or death)

 

With one exception I have never had to sign any documents agreeing to the sale. The one time that I did was in Kanchanaburi and, as explained to me by the office manager, was simply a signed statement that I had no objection to the sale. Other sales have been in Surin, Minburi (Bangkok) and Prachuap offices.

 

My wife is poised to make two sales this year and, since we are both in the UK, it would be convenient if she could conclude those by herself but I just sense that at least one of the two separate provinces involved will ask for spouse approval so I am resigned to go with her to avoid delays.

 

If you think of the way in which individuals in Immigration Offices throughout LOS apply the same rules differently then it is no surprise that Land Offices can also be unpredictable.

[ThomasThBKK]

On 2/2/2020 at 9:28 PM, PETERTHEEATER said:

In our 47 years of marriage my Thai wife has bought and sold eight properties, some land with house some land plots only. In each case during the purchase transaction at the Land Office I was required to sign the usual disclaimer that the money used to buy was my wifes and existed before marriage and that I have

no claim to the purchase (notwithstanding Thai law as to the division of assets on divorce or death)

 

With one exception I have never had to sign any documents agreeing to the sale. The one time that I did was in Kanchanaburi and, as explained to me by the office manager, was simply a signed statement that I had no objection to the sale. Other sales have been in Surin, Minburi (Bangkok) and Prachuap offices.

 

My wife is poised to make two sales this year and, since we are both in the UK, it would be convenient if she could conclude those by herself but I just sense that at least one of the two separate provinces involved will ask for spouse approval so I am resigned to go with her to avoid delays.

 

If you think of the way in which individuals in Immigration Offices throughout LOS apply the same rules differently then it is no surprise that Land Offices can also be unpredictable.

 

Does your wife still have her old Thai name? They prolly not know shes married.

 

On all transactions we did here we always had to have the (thai) husband signing too. BKK,CM,GULF...

[cliveshep]

On 2/2/2020 at 1:26 PM, jimn said:

What was the point in you posting the first 3 paragraphs of your post. Do you want people to think you are a white knight or something. Just use your common sense here. Divorce the man first and then get an agent who knows someone in the land office. They will smooth it over with them for a fee.

I simply stated the facts, your comments are unnecessary, I am no white knight, I set the scene only.  Divorcing someone who has cleared off back to Japan 8 years ago is not easy and none of us can afford the extra expense of lawyers.

[cliveshep]

On 1/29/2020 at 8:51 PM, treetops said:

Tell the sister and 21 year old nephew to find paid employment and you'll not have to struggle so much to feed them all, and it'll buy time to find a solution.

The house owning sister is sick - high blood pressure, enlarged heart, forbidden to exert herself by the hospital and is on medication, the other sister is partially disabled, he back was broken in an accident 9 years ago, her husband abandoned her in the hospital because he knew he couldn't pay the bill. So the hospital let her back heal as it would and discharged her. It is now permanently humped and she cannot lift things or work.  the husband is dead. But then I said that already! How then can I leave them?

[impulse]

Seems like one option would be to lease the place out and at least get some income.  Plus the appreciation of the property and a backup place in case someone else in the family needs a place to live in the future.

 

It's refreshing to hear that the interests of a foreign husband are being protected, even if it is a PITA in this case...

 

[donnacha]

2 hours ago, cliveshep said:

The house owning sister is sick - high blood pressure, enlarged heart, forbidden to exert herself by the hospital and is on medication, the other sister is partially disabled, he back was broken in an accident 9 years ago, her husband abandoned her in the hospital because he knew he couldn't pay the bill. So the hospital let her back heal as it would and discharged her. It is now permanently humped and she cannot lift things or work.  the husband is dead.

Run, now, before it's too late.

[treetops]

On 2/13/2020 at 4:01 PM, cliveshep said:

The house owning sister is sick - high blood pressure, enlarged heart, forbidden to exert herself by the hospital and is on medication, the other sister is partially disabled, he back was broken in an accident 9 years ago, her husband abandoned her in the hospital because he knew he couldn't pay the bill. So the hospital let her back heal as it would and discharged her. It is now permanently humped and she cannot lift things or work.  the husband is dead. But then I said that already! How then can I leave them?

And the 21 year old nephew?

[BEVUP]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:14 PM, NanLaew said:

It's an old law and I think only applies if the foreign husband's signature was obtained as part of the financial provenance/no claim malarkey at the time of a land purchase. I am not sure if it applies to a town house purchase. Ask a lawyer.

 

Either way and in my personal experience, although a purchase may have required the foreign husband's signature, in the event of a subsequent sale of said property and unlike the property purchase and registration, it doesn't stipulate that the foreign husband either has to attend in person or have his signature witnessed.

 

Can anyone write in Japanese?

 

YMMV.

 

PS: Regarding the preamble, if it wasn't for bad luck, etc., etc. ....

Agree with this

I,m out of the country at the moment & have to make my wife Power Of Attorney for me so she can sell the car & house

But the thing I can,t understand is that she could get a loan against property without my signature & the house also being owned 50% by a Minor