[EMERGENCY] Deported? Blacklisted? Help!

[Just Weird]

13 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The strange thing to me about Thailand is that either the police or the Court can  provide or deny bail. In the Western system a bail hearing is held by the court and either granted or denied. 

Not always.  In the west, for certain offences, police can grant bail without the involvement of a court.

[Caldera]

Personally, in principle I don't think it's wrong that Thai authorities remove foreigners who have committed a crime while in Thailand. I wished my home country was more strict in that regard, so it would be disingenuous if I held Thailand to a different standard.

 

With that said, however, I think the procedure described here as well as in the MJ case from Phuket in another current thread is an atrocity, plain and simple.

 

If bail has been granted pending trial and no prison term is imposed upon sentencing, surely they could come up with a less painful way to expel such a foreign petty offender once convicted that doesn't include a stay at the IDC. That someone who isn't sentenced to actual jail time is incarcerated for days or even weeks just to remove them from the country is, in my opinion, indefensible. Assuming that they can pay for their ticket out, escorting them straight to the airport would be a more appropriate way to handle this.

 

[Guest]

Hey guys. I finally managed to get access to my phone back it was out of battery and taken away from me for the entire day. I have it in my possession for the next 6 hours or so on the way to the IDC.

 

Now for the rest of the story, my lawyer didn’t show up today as he had other cases in other provinces of Thailand so appeal was not possible from our end and he just texted me back insisting that the verdict was so much in our favor it would be considered as “suicide” to even appeal it.

 

In the meantime I had reach to my ex wife the plaintiff and it appears she is considering appeal on her end after all she has nothing to lose and she is delighted to see us suffer endless anguish.

 

We are Friday on our way to the IDC, and it seems inevitable at this point.

 

I have reached the French Embassy, as expected they are powerless but gave me two crucial pieces of information:

 

The first bit is that they estimate I will be locked up in the IDC for a week if lucky, entering the IDC on this Friday and then leaving on next Friday given I have arranged accommodations to France.

 

The second bit that is slightly more worrying would be that because I broke a Thai law I am guaranteed to get blacklisted, the only thing that is left to discuss would be the duration of said blacklist.

 

The Embassy officer informed me that usual blacklists range from 6 months at the bare minimum all the way to permanently. With yearly incrementals, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, you get the drift.

 

This blacklist would be at the sole discretion of the immigration officers at the IDC so it is very important to be a role model detainee and to wai and smile at all times and not cause any unnecessary drama.

 

 I sadly do not have any additional information to add to this thread, it seems the current lawyer has given up on my case, he will not appeal regardless and he is “done” with me per se.

 

As I said I am frightened of the IDC detention conditions and very much afraid to be blacklisted for the years to come.

 

 I have my phone in my hand for the next couple of hours, if anyone has either a suggestion or knows a lawyer who’s not afraid of getting his hands dirty, bark at me.

 

Time is off the essence.

 

The only good news is that wife already applied to get her bail money back, they gave her an ETA of roughly 10 days.

 

I don’t want to bash my current lawyer but I feel like so much more could have been done to prevent me being dragged to the IDC.

I am anxiously looking forward to read your replies.

 

PS; I agree with some of the less sympathetic posts above, I made a silly mistake I shouldn’t have done this. As they say “Don’t do the crime if you can’t to do the time”. I just happen to have a 4 months old daughter that I might not see growing up other than through Skype or LINE, this thought is terrifying me to the bone.

 

[snowgard]

Why you not fight against the court sentence? Pay bail and stay another maybe 10 years?

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Maybe leave while your appeal is underway.

If an appeal is issued, there is zero chance that the block on him leaving the country will be lifted. If it is made clear that he accepts the verdict and sentence (as recommended by his lawyer) the block on leaving should be lifted almost immediately. The issue with immigration (a separate issue) then becomes the only real problem.

 

As @ubonjoe wrote, this seems an overreaction by immigration. I wonder if there are details to this story that we are unaware of.

[Guest]

Oh and also had a question: Given I don’t get any blacklist time, would it be possible to arrange the IDC to sent me to a closer destination say Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar or do I really have to fly back to France?

 

Question would be: Has anyone ever been granted the luxury to choose their outbound destination out of the IDC?

 

That would be something I would love to give a shot given again there’s no blacklist time added after the processing. (Wishful thinking according to my Embassy explained im my previous post).

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, BritTim said:

As @ubonjoe wrote, this seems an overreaction by immigration. I wonder if there are details to this story that we are unaware of.

To be honest with you guys, I can disclose an extra bit of information, this occured in Kalasin, the original complaint was registered at a small police station in a city where everyone literally knows everyone, my lawyer suspects she has some close knit family ties to the police officer who originally instructed this case and that officer has been literally breathing on our necks for this entire year, the whole trial.

 

Not sure if that helps you understanding the scope of the situation.

[PoorSucker]

17 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

The second bit that is slightly more worrying would be that because I broke a Thai law I am guaranteed to get blacklisted, the only thing that is left to discuss would be the duration of said blacklist.

I know a guy that spent a year and eight months in jail and was not deported or blacklisted. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

I know a guy that spent a year and eight months in jail and was not deported or blacklisted. 

Is this even serious?

 

Any chances to garner some sympathy from the officer who will statute on my blacklist duration (if any)?

 

 I mean I am in a wheelchair, double amputee and the wife intends to visit me as much as she can with a 4 months old baby in her arms... shouldn’t that grant me extra additional sympathy points?

[SteveK]

3 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

 I mean I am in a wheelchair, double amputee and the wife intends to visit me as much as she can with a 4 months old baby in her arms... shouldn’t that grant me extra additional sympathy points?

Not in Thailand.

[Guest]

Just now, SteveK said:

Not in Thailand.

Thought so.

[PoorSucker]

Have you tried to file for an extension after your sentence? 

[BritTim]

31 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Oh and also had a question: Given I don’t get any blacklist time, would it be possible to arrange the IDC to sent me to a closer destination say Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar or do I really have to fly back to France?

If you are being deported, the airline and receiving country must be informed of the deportation, and are allowed to refuse to accept you. In practice, all airlines and other countries routinely refuse deportees without going to the trouble of trying to understand individual cases. The only exception is that your national airline and home country are obliged to accept you. Regardless of blacklisting, you are being deported. You will, in practice, have to buy a (probably expensive) one way ticket on Air France.

[BritTim]

26 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

To be honest with you guys, I can disclose an extra bit of information, this occured in Kalasin, the original complaint was registered at a small police station in a city where everyone literally knows everyone, my lawyer suspects she has some close knit family ties to the police officer who originally instructed this case and that officer has been literally breathing on our necks for this entire year, the whole trial.

If this is the case, blacklisting is inevitable.

[JustAnotherHun]

51 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

[...]I just happen to have a 4 months old daughter that I might not see growing up other than through Skype or LINE, this thought is terrifying me to the bone.

 

That is heartbreaking and I really hope ther'll be a better future for you and your kid. Wish you all the best.

Wouldn't it be an option to take your wife and baby to France if all goes wrong here? Better live in Europe than in Skype.

[DefaultName]

44 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

To be honest with you guys, I can disclose an extra bit of information, this occured in Kalasin, the original complaint was registered at a small police station in a city where everyone literally knows everyone, my lawyer suspects she has some close knit family ties to the police officer who originally instructed this case and that officer has been literally breathing on our necks for this entire year, the whole trial.

 

Not sure if that helps you understanding the scope of the situation.

And there it is.  The ex has connections.  I'm sorry, but you're screwed unless you can find a lawyer with better connections.  It's not right, it's not fair, but TIT and that's all about it.

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, Just Weird said:

He wasn't acquitted!

I didn't say he was. I suggested that anyone who is acquitted would be on immediate overstay, based on the account in the OP. The same holds true for someone held guilty and charged. 

[Guest]

Okay guys, the plot thickens, have a good read:

 

Today after leaving the court we got a copy of the original verdict hand signed and stamped by the judge himself.

 

While I cannot read anything in Thai myself I forwarded it to a trusted translator for the French Embassy and she was baffled.

 

According to her, one paragraph reads word for word that I am a FREE man and am FREE to go wherever I please.

 

Yet these 3 immigration officers are forcibly escorting me to the IDC!?!?!

Is this an abuse of power?

 

They are working on their own agenda here and clearly not following the orders of the court.

 

I need a lawyer, and I need one RIGHT NOW!!!

Edited January 31, 2020 by Guest

[lazygourmet]

French embassy is not far away from Suan Phlu. And IDC is located on ground floor. So, not too much access trouble if on a wheelchair.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, lazygourmet said:

French embassy is not far away from Suan Phlu. And IDC is located on ground floor. So, not too much access trouble if on a wheelchair.

Staff of the French Embassy has informed me they will be visiting the Suan Phlu monday afternoon.

 

Let’s see what they can do.

[Stevemercer]

I hope the embassy gets involved and will help you avoid blacklisting at the very least.

 

At a guess, the ex-wife's police connection informed immigration of your court appearance and advised that you should be deported.

 

The judge's view was that you should 'go free' (e.g. resume your life in Thailand), but it seems the 'person of influence' (prosecuting police officer) has the final say outside of the court room.

 

Hopefully the embassy will take pity and pursue the injustice (or at least ensure adequate care while you are in IDC).

 

But you need to start thinking about your options. Assuming you are returned to France without blacklisting, then you can return to Thailand (making sure to change all your details to try and keep your ex-wife out of the picture).

 

If you are blacklisted for 12 months (the most likely period) maybe you and your wife can wait it out.

 

If you are blacklisted for a longer period, maybe you can think about bringing your wife and child to France? 

 

Good luck and best wishes to you and your family.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, tcp7 said:

Okay guys, the plot thickens, have a good read:

 

Today after leaving the court we got a copy of the original verdict hand signed and stamped by the judge himself.

 

While I cannot read anything in Thai myself I forwarded it to a trusted translator for the French Embassy and she was baffled.

 

According to her, one paragraph reads word for word that I am a FREE man and am FREE to go wherever I please.

 

Yet these 3 immigration officers are forcibly escorting me to the IDC!?!?!

Is this an abuse of power?

 

They are working on their own agenda here and clearly not following the orders of the court.

 

I need a lawyer, and I need one RIGHT NOW!!!

OP…. According to your original post you stated:

 

“Fast forward to yesterday morning, the case has ran it’s course, the judge gave his final verdict which is as follows:

Since it is a minor offense, it is my first offense in Thailand and due to my health condition, the judge sentenced me 2 years of probation or a suspended sentence (I’m not sure what the difference is)”.

 

I believe from what you have stated that you were in fact sentenced to 2 years’ probation, but that the sentence has been suspended.  It is noted that there is no mention as to how long the suspension period is.

 

What this means that that if you come before a Court again (for any reason) during the suspension period, that Court will impose the original Court sentence of 2 years’ probation or possibly change the sentence to something harsher.  However, if after 2 years you have not been in any trouble that original sentence will not be applied.

 

Because you were given a suspended sentence, I suspect that is why the interpretation of the Court ruling indicates that you are “Free man and FREE to go”.

 

That said someone (police/immigration) has determined that your presence in the Kingdom is no longer desirable and decided that you should be deported.

 

The Deportation Act B.E. 2499, Section 6, allows that whilst applying for a deportation order a police office can arrest and detain the person subject to the provisions of the Criminal Code.  So this means that they can detain you in a place of their choice, which seems in your case to be IDC in Bangkok whilst they make the application for deportation.

 

The deportation process is not down to the local police/immigration officer.  They must submit a report to the regional commander stating what you have done and why deportation is deemed necessary.  They can also recommend that if deportation is granted the you should be banned for a specified period from entering the Kingdom after deportation.

 

I suspect that they will quote from Section 5 of the Deportation Act B.E. 2499, namely: “… necessary in the interest of public peace and order or morals,….”

 

If the regional commander agrees with the request/report, he/she must forward the deportation application/report to the Head of Royal Thai Police for consideration.  Again, if the Head of RTP agrees, he must submit the endorsed application/report to the Minister of the Interior for consideration.

 

It is the Minister of the Interior who will sign the deportation order and impose any ban if he agrees with the request.  He can also deny the request and order that you be released.

 

If the Minister signs the deportation order, you will be given a copy of that order and you will have 7 days from the day you receive the order in which to lodge an appeal.

 

If you do not lodge an appeal, they (immigration) still cannot deport you until 15 day as elapsed after you receive the deportation order.

 

If you appeal it will be considered by the President of the Council of Ministers (PM) who can uphold, or cancel, the Minister’s deportation decision.

 

In my opinion the process of obtaining a deportation order is very much a ‘rubber stamp’ exercise and in order to make an appeal you are going to need a very good and expensive lawyer.

 

I see from your latest post that you say a member of your Embassy will visit you on Monday.  Please don't hold out to much hope that they are going to offer a lot of help.  The same applies to all Embassies, they cannot interfere in the legal process of the host country.  I suspect all they will be able to do is put you in contact with a Bangkok based lawyer.  As I said earlier, he/she will have to be very good and that comes at a price.

 

The very best of luck.

[SiSePuede419]

A year ago you stole "ID card, passport, work permit etc" from your "ex-girlfriend".  Then came back to the scene of the crime.

 

Questions...

 

1) Etc = what?

 

2) What country was the work permit for?

 

3) Why did you steal from an Ex-girlfriend?

 

4) Why did you come back and not expect to be punished for your crimes?

 

 

[BritTim]

5 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I suspect all they will be able to do is put you in contact with a Bangkok based lawyer.  As I said earlier, he/she will have to be very good and that comes at a price.

Further to 007 RED's excellent post, I would add that you should not blow money on lawyers that you must have to pay for your air ticket back to France. You are going to be deported if the prosecuting police have it in for you (which based on your account appears to be the case). If tried earlier, bribes to the police might have overcome their antipathy towards you. By now, it has gone up the line, and only truly massive bribes might save you. Accept reality, and make your plans accordingly. Perhaps, see if you can arrange to live in Vietnam, and (at least) have your wife and baby visit on a regular basis.

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, tcp7 said:

Okay guys, the plot thickens, have a good read:

 

Today after leaving the court we got a copy of the original verdict hand signed and stamped by the judge himself.

 

While I cannot read anything in Thai myself I forwarded it to a trusted translator for the French Embassy and she was baffled.

 

According to her, one paragraph reads word for word that I am a FREE man and am FREE to go wherever I please.

 

Yet these 3 immigration officers are forcibly escorting me to the IDC!?!?!

Is this an abuse of power?

 

They are working on their own agenda here and clearly not following the orders of the court.

 

I need a lawyer, and I need one RIGHT NOW!!!

What exactly were the charges.

Willing to be corrected .I understand the maximum fine for theft is 6000 baht.

I am also confused about the work permit you stole from your ex. Is she Not Thai ?

Edited January 31, 2020 by cleopatra2

[Encore]

So sorry to hear of your circumstances.   

 

In 2018 I was held in prison for 4 months, pending a police investigation into a fracas with my neighbour.  Bail conditions were set by the Court (twice) but bail applications were rejected.  I was unable to renew my O-A visa extension of stay, which expired a few weeks before the final court hearing, but was told by the lawyer that an extension of stay was given to allow legal proceedings.  Similar to your case, the judge issued a 2 year suspended sentence (that the lawyer called probation) and stated that I was free to return to my home in Thailand.  The lawyer also told me this and arranged transport to take me home from the prison.  The Immigration Police were waiting and arrested me as soon as I left prison.  They took me to the local police station overnight and then to the police station at my home for 3 days before spending 3 weeks in IDC (regional and BKK) before being deported for overstay. 

 

My embassy later told me that any criminal proceedings against foreigners, irrespective of outcome, now results in automatic deportation and blacklisting (since the 'bad guys out' campaign).  Some time later I found out that I was blacklisted but not for the 'crime'.  I was blacklisted for 15 years for having too many entries to Thailand in one year and working illegally.  This was a complete fabrication as I had not left Thailand for 3 years and had retired from employment 5 years earlier before retiring on an O-A visa.  Unfortunately, I was not given the information or opportunity to appeal within 30 days but am now attempting to appeal the 15 year blacklist. 

 

The biggest issue is that it can be almost impossible to understand police and/or immigration rulings as it seems they can be made at the discretion of individual RTP and/or Immigration Officers with complete impunity and no transparency or FOI.    

 

I wish you well with your case.          

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

OP…. According to your original post you stated:

 

“Fast forward to yesterday morning, the case has ran it’s course, the judge gave his final verdict which is as follows:

Since it is a minor offense, it is my first offense in Thailand and due to my health condition, the judge sentenced me 2 years of probation or a suspended sentence (I’m not sure what the difference is)”.

 

I believe from what you have stated that you were in fact sentenced to 2 years’ probation, but that the sentence has been suspended.  It is noted that there is no mention as to how long the suspension period is.

 

What this means that that if you come before a Court again (for any reason) during the suspension period, that Court will impose the original Court sentence of 2 years’ probation or possibly change the sentence to something harsher.  However, if after 2 years you have not been in any trouble that original sentence will not be applied.

 

Because you were given a suspended sentence, I suspect that is why the interpretation of the Court ruling indicates that you are “Free man and FREE to go”.

 

That said someone (police/immigration) has determined that your presence in the Kingdom is no longer desirable and decided that you should be deported.

 

The Deportation Act B.E. 2499, Section 6, allows that whilst applying for a deportation order a police office can arrest and detain the person subject to the provisions of the Criminal Code.  So this means that they can detain you in a place of their choice, which seems in your case to be IDC in Bangkok whilst they make the application for deportation.

 

The deportation process is not down to the local police/immigration officer.  They must submit a report to the regional commander stating what you have done and why deportation is deemed necessary.  They can also recommend that if deportation is granted the you should be banned for a specified period from entering the Kingdom after deportation.

 

I suspect that they will quote from Section 5 of the Deportation Act B.E. 2499, namely: “… necessary in the interest of public peace and order or morals,….”

 

If the regional commander agrees with the request/report, he/she must forward the deportation application/report to the Head of Royal Thai Police for consideration.  Again, if the Head of RTP agrees, he must submit the endorsed application/report to the Minister of the Interior for consideration.

 

It is the Minister of the Interior who will sign the deportation order and impose any ban if he agrees with the request.  He can also deny the request and order that you be released.

 

If the Minister signs the deportation order, you will be given a copy of that order and you will have 7 days from the day you receive the order in which to lodge an appeal.

 

If you do not lodge an appeal, they (immigration) still cannot deport you until 15 day as elapsed after you receive the deportation order.

 

If you appeal it will be considered by the President of the Council of Ministers (PM) who can uphold, or cancel, the Minister’s deportation decision.

 

In my opinion the process of obtaining a deportation order is very much a ‘rubber stamp’ exercise and in order to make an appeal you are going to need a very good and expensive lawyer.

 

I see from your latest post that you say a member of your Embassy will visit you on Monday.  Please don't hold out to much hope that they are going to offer a lot of help.  The same applies to all Embassies, they cannot interfere in the legal process of the host country.  I suspect all they will be able to do is put you in contact with a Bangkok based lawyer.  As I said earlier, he/she will have to be very good and that comes at a price.

 

The very best of luck.

Sorry I’m on my phone and can’t edit the quoting very well.
 

But yes I agree on the part related to the prosecuting police officer, he is a relatively close friend to a family member of my ex-wife. He is the one who also issued the original warrant and keeps going after us and won’t let go like an enraged dog.

 

About a year ago, his first stunt was making sure we wouldn’t be eligible for the first issued “criminal visa”, we only obtained it because we applied for it far away from his jurisdiction almost 200km away where he himself had no connections.

 

After reading your eloquent post about what is likely going to happen in regards to deportation I can only wonder and ponder should we make an appeal against the verdict of the court just so I can dodge the very likely blacklist outcome? That would also give me the opportunity to explain the judge what he isn’t aware of that is going on outside his court room?

 

Question is; Am I able as a foreigner from the IDC to write to a judge (in English at that) that I request to speak to him directly? In France it’s perfectly acceptable, most whistleblowers do it that way to avoid interferences and intel leaks.

 

 Another question sprung to mind: In case of a blacklist, how does one ask to be removed from it and get fully cleared all of it while being out of the country mind you?

 

Thanks for the amazing post!

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Encore said:

So sorry to hear of your circumstances.   

 

In 2018 I was held in prison for 4 months, pending a police investigation into a fracas with my neighbour.  Bail conditions were set by the Court (twice) but bail applications were rejected.  I was unable to renew my O-A visa extension of stay, which expired a few weeks before the final court hearing, but was told by the lawyer that an extension of stay was given to allow legal proceedings.  Similar to your case, the judge issued a 2 year suspended sentence (that the lawyer called probation) and stated that I was free to return to my home in Thailand.  The lawyer also told me this and arranged transport to take me home from the prison.  The Immigration Police were waiting and arrested me as soon as I left prison.  They took me to the local police station overnight and then to the police station at my home for 3 days before spending 3 weeks in IDC (regional and BKK) before being deported for overstay. 

 

My embassy later told me that any criminal proceedings against foreigners, irrespective of outcome, now results in automatic deportation and blacklisting (since the 'bad guys out' campaign).  Some time later I found out that I was blacklisted but not for the 'crime'.  I was blacklisted for 15 years for having too many entries to Thailand in one year and working illegally.  This was a complete fabrication as I had not left Thailand for 3 years and had retired from employment 5 years earlier before retiring on an O-A visa.  Unfortunately, I was not given the information or opportunity to appeal within 30 days but am now attempting to appeal the 15 year blacklist. 

 

The biggest issue is that it can be almost impossible to understand police and/or immigration rulings as it seems they can be made at the discretion of individual RTP and/or Immigration Officers with complete impunity and no transparency or FOI.    

 

I wish you well with your case.          

I feel you on this one my friend. The future looks bleak. I have a few questions:

 

You say you were sent to the IDC and then deported for overstay while into the IDC? How does that even make sense to begin with? They are the ones who held you detained against your will.

 

You are also stating that you are attempting to clear the blacklist, how does one achieve that? I assume you’re doing it from outside of Thailand. What are the costs and the involved process?

 

Thanks.

[SoonOh]

Why Not post on   https://fr.thaivisa.com/

[cleopatra2]

28 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Sorry I’m on my phone and can’t edit the quoting very well.
 

But yes I agree on the part related to the prosecuting police officer, he is a relatively close friend to a family member of my ex-wife. He is the one who also issued the original warrant and keeps going after us and won’t let go like an enraged dog.

 

About a year ago, his first stunt was making sure we wouldn’t be eligible for the first issued “criminal visa”, we only obtained it because we applied for it far away from his jurisdiction almost 200km away where he himself had no connections.

 

After reading your eloquent post about what is likely going to happen in regards to deportation I can only wonder and ponder should we make an appeal against the verdict of the court just so I can dodge the very likely blacklist outcome? That would also give me the opportunity to explain the judge what he isn’t aware of that is going on outside his court room?

 

Question is; Am I able as a foreigner from the IDC to write to a judge (in English at that) that I request to speak to him directly? In France it’s perfectly acceptable, most whistleblowers do it that way to avoid interferences and intel leaks.

 

 Another question sprung to mind: In case of a blacklist, how does one ask to be removed from it and get fully cleared all of it while being out of the country mind you?

 

Thanks for the amazing post!

 

The times are wrong

Originally your ex made a complaint about a year ago.

You returned without problem half a year later.Spent a further 2 months without issue.

Only when you was leaving did you get arrested.

How could you be getting a criminal visa 1 year ago ?

Who is close to the ex girlfriend .Police Officer or prosecutor.

Edited January 31, 2020 by cleopatra2