Huawei row: Australian MPs cancel UK trip amid tensions over leak

[rooster59]

Huawei row: Australian MPs cancel UK trip amid tensions over leak

 

 

Senior Australian MPs have cancelled a planned trip to the UK as tensions heighten over the role of Huawei in building Britain's 5G network.

 

Lawmakers from the intelligence and security committee had been expected to travel to the UK next month.

But the trip has been postponed amid reports of a diplomatic rift.

 

The decision follows a reported complaint from the UK over leaked details of a high-level meeting where Huawei was discussed.

 

Full story: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51513886

 

-- © Copyright BBC 2020-02-16

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[spidermike007]

The really fascinating and juicy part of this whole drama, is that the US it trying mightily to stop anyone from using the advanced technology Huawei has developed, at a huge cost, with participation of the Chicoms, but they are not offering any alternatives, primarily due to the fact that the US will not spend money improving it's own infrastructure, which is crumbling, and is way behind the curve.

 

When I am in the US it is always disappointing when I am only able to get speeds of 10-15 MBPS on the Verizon 4G network. Here, with True I get 30-70 MBPS. Same with internet. There I get 20MBPS, sometimes a bit faster, and it costs $50 a month and up. Here in Thailand I get 230 MBPS down, and 140 up. At 800 baht a month, unlimited. So, even Thailand is making the US look like a third world nation. And I pay a third of what I pay in the US.

 

The fact of the matter is the US is behind the curve in so many areas of technology. I am all for maintaining control of this new technology, but you have to give your allies a real alternative.

 

Right now, Ericsson and Nokia are the only companies apart from Huawei who are spending enough money to develop a real 5G system. Many others are working on it, but not spending enough to make it happen at the super fast level that is being discussed. Most will be glorified 4G systems. So, unless the US is able to establish a partnership with either of these companies, or purchase a controlling interest, they are simply blowing alot of hot air, flexing muscles with nothing behind them, and forcing policies with no substance behind them. Not an unusual position for a broken nation to take.

[mercman24]

spidermike, very well reported, its the US well behind the times trying to wheeled the big stick,  even Thailand is ahead of them , lol

[Laughing Gravy]

21 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

spidermike, very well reported, its the US well behind the times trying to wheeled the big stick

I agree wholeheartedly. 

 

21 minutes ago, mercman24 said:

even Thailand is ahead of them , lol

I assume this is a joke but please tell me in what way. BTW I am not from the US or Thailand.

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Right now, Ericsson and Nokia are the only companies apart from Huawei who are spending enough money to develop a real 5G system. Many others are working on it, but not spending enough to make it happen at the super fast level that is being discussed. Most will be glorified 4G systems. So, unless the US is able to establish a partnership with either of these companies, or purchase a controlling interest, they are simply blowing alot of hot air, flexing muscles with nothing behind them, and forcing policies with no substance behind them. Not an unusual position for a broken nation to take.

While I share your comments, it appears 5G is already a reality in the US as T-Mobile constantly advertises Nationwide service.

 

I am the last one to give Donald Trump any praises as i find him ofensive in so many ways.  However- Huawei is an army of the Chinese Government and for the US or now the UK to  allow any portion of Huawei to build it;s 5 G network is like allowing the Chinese Government to view all the technology developed by the Weste but also gain entry into the entire network.

 

China loves 5G because they know its much more than mobile data it is the ultimate entry to control of all data Worldwide and the monitoring of people and proprietary information.

 

The Chinese repreent a clear and present danger to the World.  Their goal is to kep the Communist Party in power forever and to do that they must get access to needed natural resources, land; technology and intelligence and to ultimately steal anything they cannot gain in other ways.  

 

Why does Hong Kong continually have demonstrations; destroy cameras mounted on every street post and express displeasure against being a part of the Mainland.  They know what the Cinese Communist Leadership has planned.

 

Allowing Huawei any access to Western systems is like giving a convicted thief a key to your home.   

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The Chinese repreent a clear and present danger to the World.  Their goal is to kep the Communist Party in power forever and to do that they must get access to needed natural resources, land; technology and intelligence and to ultimately steal anything they cannot gain in other ways. 

You could replace "Chinese" with US, and Communist with Republican. The USA has been doing exactly what you accuse China of doing, for decades. At least China hasn't bombed its way to self gratification at the world's expense. Yeah, they're smarter, no doubt about that!

[Monomial]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The really fascinating and juicy part of this whole drama, is that the US it trying mightily to stop anyone from using the advanced technology Huawei has developed, at a huge cost, with participation of the Chicoms, but they are not offering any alternatives, primarily due to the fact that the US will not spend money improving it's own infrastructure, which is crumbling, and is way behind the curve.

 

When I am in the US it is always disappointing when I am only able to get speeds of 10-15 MBPS on the Verizon 4G network. Here, with True I get 30-70 MBPS. Same with internet. There I get 20MBPS, sometimes a bit faster, and it costs $50 a month and up. Here in Thailand I get 230 MBPS down, and 140 up. At 800 baht a month, unlimited. So, even Thailand is making the US look like a third world nation. And I pay a third of what I pay in the US.

 

The fact of the matter is the US is behind the curve in so many areas of technology. I am all for maintaining control of this new technology, but you have to give your allies a real alternative.

 

Right now, Ericsson and Nokia are the only companies apart from Huawei who are spending enough money to develop a real 5G system. Many others are working on it, but not spending enough to make it happen at the super fast level that is being discussed. Most will be glorified 4G systems. So, unless the US is able to establish a partnership with either of these companies, or purchase a controlling interest, they are simply blowing alot of hot air, flexing muscles with nothing behind them, and forcing policies with no substance behind them. Not an unusual position for a broken nation to take.

 

I don't disagree with you, and I'm not even saying the following is true, but the counter argument to this statement is that the advanced technology being pushed throughout Asia was not created fairly by the markets, but through improper subsidies of the Chinese government to Huawei, and who are now using that technology Huawei made to establish a global data intelligence network. The argument goes that nobody can afford to compete with Huawei in an honest marketplace. It is like Google offering things for free in order to monetize your data. It's not wrong to say "Don't use Google services" even when there may not be a competitive service in the market, because those free services come with a hidden cost, and it may be impossible to develop a cost competitive service without it.  The question is whether or not anyone cares about the machinations going on behind the scenes, or if they only look at short term benefits and ignore long term issues.

 

I am not saying I necessarily subscribe to the theory above, but that is the counter point to your statement.

 

[steven100]

Australia ... dumb, just follow the US. China ... smart, they know how to play the game

[Ireland32]

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

While I share your comments, it appears 5G is already a reality in the US as T-Mobile constantly advertises Nationwide service.

 

I am the last one to give Donald Trump any praises as i find him ofensive in so many ways.  However- Huawei is an army of the Chinese Government and for the US or now the UK to  allow any portion of Huawei to build it;s 5 G network is like allowing the Chinese Government to view all the technology developed by the Weste but also gain entry into the entire network.

 

China loves 5G because they know its much more than mobile data it is the ultimate entry to control of all data Worldwide and the monitoring of people and proprietary information.

 

The Chinese repreent a clear and present danger to the World.  Their goal is to kep the Communist Party in power forever and to do that they must get access to needed natural resources, land; technology and intelligence and to ultimately steal anything they cannot gain in other ways.  

 

Why does Hong Kong continually have demonstrations; destroy cameras mounted on every street post and express displeasure against being a part of the Mainland.  They know what the Cinese Communist Leadership has planned.

 

Allowing Huawei any access to Western systems is like giving a convicted thief a key to your home.   

Thank you

[Ireland32]

28 minutes ago, steven100 said:

Australia ... dumb, just follow the US. China ... smart, they know how to play the game

Yeah , Debt Traps , SCS , Colonizing, yes they know how to Play Games, Australia is Smart and not stupid like Europe or Britain 

[Ireland32]

2 hours ago, bradiston said:

You could replace "Chinese" with US, and Communist with Republican. The USA has been doing exactly what you accuse China of doing, for decades. At least China hasn't bombed its way to self gratification at the world's expense. Yeah, they're smarter, no doubt about that!

Self gratification thru Debt Traps and SCS Control

[Ireland32]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The really fascinating and juicy part of this whole drama, is that the US it trying mightily to stop anyone from using the advanced technology Huawei has developed, at a huge cost, with participation of the Chicoms, but they are not offering any alternatives, primarily due to the fact that the US will not spend money improving it's own infrastructure, which is crumbling, and is way behind the curve.

 

When I am in the US it is always disappointing when I am only able to get speeds of 10-15 MBPS on the Verizon 4G network. Here, with True I get 30-70 MBPS. Same with internet. There I get 20MBPS, sometimes a bit faster, and it costs $50 a month and up. Here in Thailand I get 230 MBPS down, and 140 up. At 800 baht a month, unlimited. So, even Thailand is making the US look like a third world nation. And I pay a third of what I pay in the US.

 

The fact of the matter is the US is behind the curve in so many areas of technology. I am all for maintaining control of this new technology, but you have to give your allies a real alternative.

 

Right now, Ericsson and Nokia are the only companies apart from Huawei who are spending enough money to develop a real 5G system. Many others are working on it, but not spending enough to make it happen at the super fast level that is being discussed. Most will be glorified 4G systems. So, unless the US is able to establish a partnership with either of these companies, or purchase a controlling interest, they are simply blowing alot of hot air, flexing muscles with nothing behind them, and forcing policies with no substance behind them. Not an unusual position for a broken nation to take.

It’s Spyware , get over it

[Sujo]

6 minutes ago, Ireland32 said:

Yeah , Debt Traps , SCS , Colonizing, yes they know how to Play Games, Australia is Smart and not stupid like Europe or Britain 

oz is far from smart. You want smart, look at china.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Sujo

[mickey rat]

9 hours ago, mercman24 said:

spidermike, very well reported, its the US well behind the times trying to wheeled the big stick,  even Thailand is ahead of them , lol

My guess is they spent all their money on military interventions to keep propping up the Petrodollar instead of spending the money on infrastructure.

 

The big stick may be their only option with regards to imposing the petrodollar. They seem to be digging in deeper and deeper but what's your alternative? ????

[samran]

It’s pretty simple. China is playing divide and conquer with the five eyes. 
 

It’s already working...

 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/uk-envoy-s-dressing-down-of-australian-mps-weakens-relationship-20200216-p5418c.html

 

At the moment the weakest link is trade obsessed Britain. Chinese envoy here dropping subtle hints about letting ‘markets work’.. 

 

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/china-admonishes-boris-johnson-over-lack-of-free-market-approach-to-huawei-20200210-p53z7r.html

[Curt1591]

16 hours ago, Thaidream said:

China loves 5G because they know its much more than mobile data it is the ultimate entry to control of all data Worldwide and the monitoring of people and proprietary information.

 

My experience with many Chinese developed tech products has taught me that they often rush release. Sometimes updates will resolve issues. Sometimes a product is scrapped. 

Screw cellular. 5G is more than just great data speeds; it's control over so much infrastructure. And, according to a few IT specialist reports, it's easy to hack. 

Who cares if you can't watch Netflix, when lights, traffic signals, or other necessities fail, all at the press of an "enter" key?
 

[spidermike007]

21 hours ago, Thaidream said:

While I share your comments, it appears 5G is already a reality in the US as T-Mobile constantly advertises Nationwide service.

 

I am the last one to give Donald Trump any praises as i find him ofensive in so many ways.  However- Huawei is an army of the Chinese Government and for the US or now the UK to  allow any portion of Huawei to build it;s 5 G network is like allowing the Chinese Government to view all the technology developed by the Weste but also gain entry into the entire network.

 

China loves 5G because they know its much more than mobile data it is the ultimate entry to control of all data Worldwide and the monitoring of people and proprietary information.

 

The Chinese repreent a clear and present danger to the World.  Their goal is to kep the Communist Party in power forever and to do that they must get access to needed natural resources, land; technology and intelligence and to ultimately steal anything they cannot gain in other ways.  

 

Why does Hong Kong continually have demonstrations; destroy cameras mounted on every street post and express displeasure against being a part of the Mainland.  They know what the Cinese Communist Leadership has planned.

 

Allowing Huawei any access to Western systems is like giving a convicted thief a key to your home.   

 

I totally agree that the Chicoms are up to no good. My argument was about providing the allies with real alternatives. The T-Mobile system is a ghost system. It is set up to resemble 5-g, but it is not anything close to 5-g. It is a total illusion. 

 

T-Mobile was able to build out nationwide 5G access faster and more cheaply than its competitors because low-band spectrum allows signal to travel farther and requires less equipment, such as cell towers and radios. T-Mobile was able to upgrade its existing 4G equipment to launch 5G. But T-Mobile's 5G network will provide, on average, just a 20% increase in download speeds from 4G LTE, a T-Mobile spokesperson told CNN Business.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/03/tech/tmobile-5g/index.html

[spidermike007]

17 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

I don't disagree with you, and I'm not even saying the following is true, but the counter argument to this statement is that the advanced technology being pushed throughout Asia was not created fairly by the markets, but through improper subsidies of the Chinese government to Huawei, and who are now using that technology Huawei made to establish a global data intelligence network. The argument goes that nobody can afford to compete with Huawei in an honest marketplace. It is like Google offering things for free in order to monetize your data. It's not wrong to say "Don't use Google services" even when there may not be a competitive service in the market, because those free services come with a hidden cost, and it may be impossible to develop a cost competitive service without it.  The question is whether or not anyone cares about the machinations going on behind the scenes, or if they only look at short term benefits and ignore long term issues.

 

I am not saying I necessarily subscribe to the theory above, but that is the counter point to your statement.

 

 

There is no question that the Chicoms have been spending hundreds of billions of dollars, to develop 5G. They want to be the first ones out of the gate, which means alot in terms of their long term plans for total world domination. The US on the other hand is so far behind this technology curve, they are made to look like a third world nation, which they are, when it comes to some technology, and certainly when it comes to crumbling infrastructure. This is about vision. And China, like the govt. or not, beat everyone to the punch.

[stevenl]

21 hours ago, Thaidream said:

However- Huawei is an army of the Chinese Government and for the US or now the UK to  allow any portion of Huawei to build it;s 5 G network is like allowing the Chinese Government to view all the technology developed by the Weste but also gain entry into the entire network.

 

Why does Hong Kong continually have demonstrations; destroy cameras mounted on every street post and express displeasure against being a part of the Mainland.  They know what the Cinese Communist Leadership has planned.

 

Allowing Huawei any access to Western systems is like giving a convicted thief a key to your home.   

 

17 hours ago, Monomial said:

 

I don't disagree with you, and I'm not even saying the following is true, but the counter argument to this statement is that the advanced technology being pushed throughout Asia was not created fairly by the markets, but through improper subsidies of the Chinese government to Huawei, and who are now using that technology Huawei made to establish a global data intelligence network.

 

What do you guys base your arguments on that Huawei is part of the Chinese government, and being used to spy on everybody and everything? I am simply asking because I have heard this mentioned over and over, but the main source for this seems to be USA.

 

Mentioning street cameras in this context is simply false IMO.

[ThaiBunny]

19 minutes ago, stevenl said:

What do you guys base your arguments on that Huawei is part of the Chinese government, and being used to spy on everybody and everything? I am simply asking because I have heard this mentioned over and over, but the main source for this seems to be USA.

Huawei's founder and chief executive was an integral part of the Chinese military in the People's Liberation Army (PLA) research institute where he worked as a military technologist reportedly in the PLA's Information Technology research unit. The first assumption is that he retained close links when he moved to Huawei. The second reason is that China a few years ago introduced legislation that explicitly made it mandatory for Chinese companies to place their skills and resources at the disposal of the Chinese government, on request. Taken together there's a presumption of a "smoking gun"; Huawei will somehow give the Chinese government backdoor access to its hardware installed in British, US etc. sites.

 

I recall seeing a British intelligence officer discussing this on the BBC a year or so ago. His position was rather than there being a smoking gun of that sort, the greater risk was the poor coding skills of Huwaei's programmers, about which he was rather scathing

Edited February 17, 2020 by ThaiBunny

[stevenl]

Just now, ThaiBunny said:

Huawei's founder and chief executive was an integral part of the Chinese military in the People's Liberation Army (PLA) research institute where he worked as a military technologist reportedly in the PLA's Information Technology research unit. The first assumption is that he retained close links when he moved to Huawei. The second reason is that China a few years ago introduced legislation that explicitly made it mandatory for Chinese companies place their skills and resources at the disposal of the Chinese government, on request. Taken together there's a presumption of a "smoking gun"; Huawei will somehow give the Chinese government backdoor access to its hardware installed in British, US etc. sites.

 

I recall seeing a British intelligence officer discussing this on the BBC a year or so ago. His position was rather than there being a smoking gun of that sort, the greater risk was the poor coding skills of Huwaei's programmers, about which he was rather scathing

So that is no proof at all that Huawei is building in backdoors or similar.

On top of that, I would say you're far away from a smoking gun.

[Eric Loh]

23 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So that is no proof at all that Huawei is building in backdoors or similar.

On top of that, I would say you're far away from a smoking gun.

Trump is still searching for the smoking gun. His xenophobic claim is just another political campaign pandering to his MAGA crowd. It’s all part of his smokescreen to fool his base. 

https://www.cyberscoop.com/huawei-no-smoking-gun-nsa-rsa/

[ThaiBunny]

29 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So that is no proof at all that Huawei is building in backdoors or similar

Yes, that's what the word "presumption" means 

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Yes, that's what the word "presumption" means 

Not shared by U.K., Germany, Netherlands and France. 

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Not shared by U.K., Germany, Netherlands and France. 

I think that's today's winner of SOTBO

[stevenl]

18 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Yes, that's what the word "presumption" means 

And on that basis I think the present claims are doubtful. They may be true or not, but for the moment I see no reason to boycott Huawei based on the information available.

 

And no, your sentence ' Taken together there's a presumption of a "smoking gun"; ' taken together with your earlier posts indicates much more than a presumption.

[ThaiBunny]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

taken together with your earlier posts indicates much more than a presumption.

Perhaps you can cite those; I don't recall ever having taken a position on the topic, I was merely responding to someone else's question about why some people have a down on Huawei. I can also explain, in detail, why people believe in the Christian blood sacrifice but that doesn't mean that knowing why something is believed indicates that I share the belief

Edited February 17, 2020 by ThaiBunny

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

Perhaps you can cite those; I don't recall ever having taken a position on the topic, I was merely responding to someone else's question about why people have a down on Huawei

From you.

 

However- Huawei is an army of the Chinese Government and for the US or now the UK to  allow any portion of Huawei to build it;s 5 G network is like allowing the Chinese Government to view all the technology developed by the Weste but also gain entry into the entire network.

 

China loves 5G because they know its much more than mobile data it is the ultimate entry to control of all data Worldwide and the monitoring of people and proprietary information.

 

<snip>

 

Allowing Huawei any access to Western systems is like giving a convicted thief a key to your home.   

[Monomial]

The people here saying there has to be proof or a smoking gun are completely missing the point. There is never, ever "proof" of something like this. There is only a fear. Just because you don't have proof someone is a double agent, does not mean you need to grant them clearance to sensitive information. Suspicion and opportunity are more than enough reason to act.

 

The issue at stake is not proving Huawei's guilt. The issue is that Huawei can not conclusively prove they are innocent of these concerns, and there are several reasons to believe they may be compromised. (Again, not "proven" to be compromised.) Therefore, several Western governments have decided that based on a preponderance of evidence it is too risky to include them in their infrastructure, and they are encouraging others to do the same as a way to contain the perceived threat. It doesn't make anyone right or wrong. But it does require each country to choose a side. The UK, Germany, France and the Netherlands need to understand the consequences of exposing their communications networks to the risks, even if those risks are ultimately not real. There will be disadvantages no matter which way they decide.

 

I can't prove Google is going to misuse my data that they have collected from me. But I have a very real suspicion they will, and that is enough for me to excercise caution and encourage others to do the same.

 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Monomial said:

I can't prove Google is going to misuse my data that they have collected from me. But I have a very real suspicion they will, and that is enough for me to excercise caution and encourage others to do the same.

 

What's more concerning is that, even if I trusted Google to not do anything nefarious with my data, can I trust them to keep my data from bad actors who would use my data against me?

 

Imagine showing up at the Thai Embassy, or at immigration and being rejected because some data gathering company sold them a rating, based on my friendliness to the Thai regime's ambitions.  It's one of a thousand ratings they'd have on me based on my interweb presence and data scraped from hundreds of sources.  Purchases, likes, posts, DNA profile from a genealogy website, web searches, activities caught on CCTV with facial recognition, traffic cams showing my driving habits...

 

Financial credit rating systems are a pretty well established model with decades of history...  Based on collected data, they influence all kinds of aspects of my life- whether I can get a mortgage, what interest rate I'll pay for a car loan, how much my auto insurance will cost, whether I can rent a home, get a job... and on and on. 

 

Now extrapolate that to a social credit system.  Where have we heard that term as a government policy?  Social credit system? 

 

Wanna get a reservation at the best restaurant in town?  Let's check your social credit score to see if you're a good fit for our clientele.  Oops.  Bad news...  Looks like you order the cheapest items on the menu, you drink water, most of your restaurant reviews are negative, and you don't tip very well, either.  We can fit you in next September...

 

To be honest, call me a Luddite, but I'm seeing more potential downsides to 5G than upsides.  I mean, just how fast do I need to stream the latest episodes of my favorite time waster?  And on the flipside, is the ability to stream another few million CCTV's with facial recognition around the world really a good thing?

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by impulse