Why do Thais only understand words pronounced and intoned perfectly?

[EVENKEEL]

19 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I thought that was what you said when you snorted crystal meth.

Only if you snort off a bowie knife...….BBad

[tropo]

35 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Tonal languages are especially difficult for non-tonal native speakers like Filipinos, Japanese and Europeans. But I am curious as to why that Thai person was hostile towards your friend.

 

I have heard some native Chinese speakers speaking almost perfect Thai because their languages are also tonal.

 

 

Perhaps "hostile" was a bit of an exaggeration. "Annoyed" or "irritated" would be better descriptive words. It wasn't one Thai person, but many. Some raised their voices in their obvious annoyance.

 

Thai people do get irritated quite easily, so it doesn't take much to tick them off. My wife, who didn't attempt to speak Thai always got much better reception and service.

 

I must stress, this is in Pattaya, where English skills are more common amongst local Thais.

 

The point is that unless you announce the words very precisely, they don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Vietnamese is a tonal language, so does this mean they can also easily learn to speak Thai?

Edited February 27, 2020 by tropo

[BigStar]

On 2/26/2020 at 9:55 AM, ColeBOzbourne said:

But toddlers, the elderly, and people with speech impediments are often understood by Thais because they anticipate the pronunciation will not be perfect. Why can't they have the same frame of mind with foreigners?

Obviously, toddlers, the elderly, and people w/ speech impediments still speak Thai better and probably make more sense than most foreigners. They're still Thai and Thais are used to how these groups pronounce. However, they may not always be understood. 

 

On 2/26/2020 at 11:11 AM, Happy Grumpy said:

Hello, this is Mister xxxx xxxxx, my account number is  xxxxxxxx.

"Hello, I have xxxx problem or want xxxxx."

"Name, please?" [bypass]

"I have account number."

"What is the account number?"

 

13 hours ago, EricTh said:

The truth is most westerners can't pronounce Thai sounds, tones and their grammar.

 

I've heard tons of Thai learners who are westerners and Japanese; they sounded horrible even after learning for so many years.

Not the truth. The "Learning" wasn't really learning. They haven't learned properly with an educated Thai teacher, haven't studied hard as they needed to. Not used to hard academic rigor, perhaps, particularly with regards to linguistics and language studies--the phrase "busting your butt" comes to mind.

 

"Can't" is a cop out, blaming Thais for being stupid, slow, hostile, or "pretending" is another. Heard that many times from people whose "efforts" at learning Thai were a joke and could never even manage a "Sawatdee, krub" properly. Partly a matter of subjective arrogant attitude, I think, same as we see on the forum: too much of a "I like doing it my way and they should understand my way and do it my way" with wrong tones, emphasis, and timing.

 

9 hours ago, tgw said:

inability to understand slightly mispronounced words is another.

I blame it on the schooling system that doesn't teach intellectual agility.

Inability to understand, despite being told repeatedly, that "slightly mispronounced" words are in some languages entirely different words or non-words may be blamed on the schooling system that doesn't teach intellectual ability, foreign languages, or cultural sensitivity.

 

[ben2talk]

I make a point of trying not to understand irritating people myself, and would assume that many Thai's are simply doing the same thing with you.

Edited February 27, 2020 by ben2talk

[EricTh]

4 hours ago, tropo said:

 

The point is that unless you announce the words very precisely, they don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Vietnamese is a tonal language, so does this mean they can also easily learn to speak Thai?

 

It's not just the pronunciation, it's usually the tone that is off. If it sounds weird to Thai people, they probably won't reply back in Thai to you but in English.

 

Yes, Vietnamese can speak much better Thai than westerners, Japanese or Filipinos. My Thai teacher told me that Japanese students just can't pronounce Thai correctly.

 

Actually, some of the 'Thai' words are actually Chinese in origin...that's why it is easier for Chinese to pronounce the words. click below.

 

http://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2018/02/thai-words-of-chinese-origin-part-1.html

Edited February 27, 2020 by EricTh

[moe666]

If you go to a bar, resturant, or shop where there are lots of english speakers they will understand you. You are in Thailand not their fault you cannot speak proper Thailish. Only joking there. Once I told a taxi driver in Bangkok my destination and he had that blank look on his face, I asked my friend did I screw that up and she says no it was perfect. Then he talks to her

[tgw]

10 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

Really?

When you learn a new language, you should learn properly with the proper tones and pronunciation.

 

5 hours ago, BigStar said:

Inability to understand, despite being told repeatedly, that "slightly mispronounced" words are in some languages entirely different words or non-words may be blamed on the schooling system that doesn't teach intellectual ability, foreign languages, or cultural sensitivity.

I don't know where you two took the idea that I was suggesting it is ok to mispronounce...

 

But what do you say about Thais being sometimes unable to understand each other?

 

[BigStar]

35 minutes ago, moe666 said:

 Once I told a taxi driver in Bangkok my destination and he had that blank look on his face, I asked my friend did I screw that up and she says no it was perfect. Then he talks to her

Could be that your gf is used to your accent. But more likely the driver prefers verification from the Thai. In general, Thais will feel more comfortable dealing with your Thai companion. So they may not answer you for that reason, not because they misunderstood. They don't consider this impolite. Different standard.

[BigStar]

8 minutes ago, tgw said:

I don't know where you two took the idea that I was suggesting it is ok to mispronounce...

Actually I was glancing at the OP, who persisted in wrongheadedness as so many do. They just can't understand . . . .

 

9 minutes ago, tgw said:

But what do you say about Thais being sometimes unable to understand each other?

I say people of other nationalities are also sometimes unable to understand each other. Seriously, never heard of this? Is there no justification for legalese?

 

Not too uncommon in Britain, actually, between different dialect speakers. And between English-speaking nationalities, despite OP asserting no problems. Note this from the movies forum:

 

On 2/24/2020 at 4:20 PM, faraday said:

Yes, sometimes it is difficult to understand some US movies, often I have subs up.

Ask a Japanese sometime why Japanese, not a tonal language, needs kanji. Why not just use phonetic hirigana and katakana?

 

Even if true that Thai is somehow inherently more ambiguous than other languages, as we'd love to believe, it'd be the least of a farang's problems who can't even get "Sawatdee" correct, which is what we have around here. Irrelevant, and no excuse whatsoever. Funny how we find all these things going in Thailand that have always existed in other countries, notably our own.

[faraday]

5 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Actually I was glancing at the OP, who persisted in wrongheadedness as so many do. They just can't understand . . . .

 

I say people of other nationalities are also sometimes unable to understand each other. Seriously, never heard of this? Is there no justification for legalese?

 

Not too uncommon in Britain, actually, between different dialect speakers. And between English-speaking nationalities, despite OP asserting no problems. Note this from the movies forum:

 

Ask a Japanese sometime why Japanese, not a tonal language, needs kanji. Why not just use phonetic hirigana and katakana?

 

Even if true that Thai is somehow inherently more ambiguous than other languages, as we'd love to believe, it'd be the least of a farang's problems who can't even get "Sawatdee" correct, which is what we have around here. Irrelevant, and no excuse whatsoever. Funny how we find all these things going in Thailand that have always existed in other countries, notably our own.

Why have you selected my post from another thread?

 

It's not really relevant.

 

 

[BigStar]

26 minutes ago, faraday said:

Why have you selected my post from another thread?

 

It's not really relevant.

 

 

Because it IS relevant to the OP's false claim that different English-speaking nationalities have no problems understanding one another despite their differing pronunciations. If in fact they had no problems, then subtitles wouldn't be needed for native English speakers to understand spoken English. This is not to ignore other issues, but pronunciation is a major aspect.

 

It also succinctly captured the point I wished to make. I don't have to only quote your post in the thread in which it originally appeared. And did say it appeared in the movies forum. Guess you'll just have to suck it up.

Edited February 27, 2020 by BigStar

[faraday]

44 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Because it IS relevant to the OP's false claim that different English-speaking nationalities have no problems understanding one another despite their differing pronunciations. If in fact they had no problems, then subtitles wouldn't be needed for native English speakers to understand spoken English. This is not to ignore other issues, but pronunciation is a major aspect.

 

It also succinctly captured the point I wished to make. I don't have to only quote your post in the thread in which it originally appeared. And did say it appeared in the movies forum. Guess you'll just have to suck it up.

You were doing ok with your explanation, in fact, I agreed with most of what you posted.

 

Your last sentence. That, was unnecessarily rude.

 

Never mind.

 

[BigStar]

17 hours ago, tgw said:

when there are words with the same sounds but different tones meaning the opposite, then there is something wrong.

What exactly is "wrong?" Words with different tones don't have the same sound.

[KhaoYai]

I've come across similar things many times, in fact on an almost daily basis with my girlfriend. Thai's don't seem to be able to make allowances for people who may get the tones a bit wrong.  They don't seem to think....."what could he be saying".

 

On one of my first trips to Thailand I went into a travel agents (yes there used to be such things) and told them I wanted to visit Koh Chang.........I made the same mistake then as many do and said 'Koe Chang' - I hope the intonation comes across by using that spelling. I later learned how to say Koh Chang properly but I would have expected at least one of the 3 girls in the travel agents to have known what I actually meant. I ended up having to point to the island on a map.

 

In my home country travellers often call a nearby town Gisley as its spelled Guiseley. The actual pronunciation is Gyesly. Now, if I was walking along and someone stopped me and asked directions to Gisley, I would know they mean Guiseley because somewhere inside, I automatically translate this - unlike Thai's.

 

I find it a bit off that some Thai's expect me to get every tone and pronunciation 100% right and make no allowances - given that they say Yipoon for Japan, Gowlee for Korea and Walve for Valve. The Walve thing confuses me - my girlfriend says Walve - she claims not to be able to pronounce V but she says Van - she doesn't say Wan - mai khao jai.

 

The same applies to some Thai's who pronounce Buriram as Burilam - if they can say the first R, why can't they say the second?

[BigStar]

30 minutes ago, faraday said:

Your last sentence. That, was unnecessarily rude.

As I'd already said it's from the movie forum, not this forum, it was unnecessary for you to make the point that it's from another forum. I did so to suggest commonality. Then you asserted, while giving no reason for the assertion, that it's not relevant. If you'd bothered giving the reason you think it's not relevant, showing that you'd read the OP and know what the topic is about; or, better, merely asked how it's relevant, then you'd have received a pleasanter response.

[faraday]

A somewhat verbose & pedantic reply.

 

 

[BigStar]

1 minute ago, faraday said:

A somewhat verbose & pedantic reply.

Yes, ma'am. We done?

[faraday]

⚓

 

Rhymes with...

[BigStar]

13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

In my home country travellers often call a nearby town Gisley as its spelled Guiseley. The actual pronunciation is Gyesly. Now, if I was walking along and someone stopped me and asked directions to Gisley, I would know they mean Guiseley because somewhere inside, I automatically translate this - unlike Thai's.

That's cause it's not that dissimilar. What seems similar to you isn't to Thais. Nor should it be, nor should you have any expectation in that regard.

 

Quote

I find it a bit off that some Thai's expect me to get every tone and pronunciation 100% right and make no allowances - given that they say Yipoon for Japan, Gowlee for Korea and Walve for Valve.

But they're not pretending they're speaking Japanese or Korean. Walve is typical Thaiglish close enought to English and easily understandable IF you're familiar with Thaiglish. But she could study more English and pronounce that V, just as if you studied enough, you could pronounce Thai correctly. German friend of friend of mine, talking about pipe threads, always says "treet." Finally figured out what he was talking about after hearing it a few times. Yeah, foreign nationalities pronounce English differently. News?

 

Quote

The same applies to some Thai's who pronounce Buriram as Burilam - if they can say the first R, why can't they say the second?

There's neither an 'r' nor an 'l' in that Thai word. So who are you to say?

[KhaoYai]

18 minutes ago, BigStar said:

That's cause it's not that dissimilar. What seems similar to you isn't to Thais. Nor should it be, nor should you have any expectation in that regard.

Sorry, don't agree. In other countries that I've visited, allowances are made for foreigners that try to speak the language but maty get it a little wrong. Koh and Koh are as similar as Gis and Guis - it just takes a little understanding that the foreigner may be a little off the mark.

 

18 minutes ago, BigStar said:

But they're not pretending they're speaking Japanese or Korean.

Not sure what you mean. If you mean they are actually using Japanese and Korean words then you should have inserted a comma after pretending. Whatever, when asked, my girlfriend says that "Thai people cannot say Japan" - clearly some can but that's what she says.

 

18 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Walve is typical Thaiglish close enought to English and easily understandable IF you're familiar with Thaiglish. But she could study more English and pronounce that V,

So Walve is Thaiglish but I can't say Koh and be understood? Come off it! She doesn't need to study English to pronounce V - as I said, she already says VAN.

 

18 minutes ago, BigStar said:

There's neither an 'r' nor an 'l' in that Thai word. So who are you to say?

I have no idea what letters are in that word - neither does that matter.  The point is that the correct Thai pronunciation is Buriram not Burilam. So I have to speak Thai correctly but Thai's can say what the hell they like??

 

I'm pretty sure you understand exactly what I'm getting at in my post - you are just being awkward.

Edited February 27, 2020 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

How about Central - the shopping centres. That's an English word but Thai's say Centran. That's fine too?

[BigStar]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

How about Central - the shopping centres. That's an English word but Thai's say Centran. That's fine too?

What's "fine?"

[BigStar]

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Sorry, don't agree. In other countries that I've visited, allowances are made for foreigners

You can disagree all you want to but that really doesn't help you in the least to be understood in Thai. Seems somebody has the wrong idea about cause and effect in this case. You aren't owed any "allowances" even if Thais are able to make them. For reasons already explained, they usually aren't.

 

The "other countries" are merely countries whose natives speak non-tonal languages, probably European. Apples and oranges, pal. Go to less urbanized China or VN and see how many "allowances" you get. Friend of mine quickly gave up on Vietnamese with exactly the same irrational complaint.

 

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

If you mean they are actually using Japanese and Korean words then you should have inserted a comma after pretending. Whatever, when asked, my girlfriend says that "Thai people cannot say Japan" - clearly some can but that's what she says.

If they're speaking Japanese, having studied it, they wouldn't say "Yeepun." Nor would you say Japan if you were trying to speak Japanese. So your gf is using the Thai word for Japan and pronouncing as Thais do, normally. More Thaiglish and just what I already told you. Means she hasn't learned the English pronunciation. "Can't" means the same as what farang claim about learning Thai. Means "won't" or "don't want to, buzz off."

 

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

So Walve is Thaiglish but I can't say Koh and be understood? Come off it! She doesn't need to study English to pronounce V - as I said, she already says VAN.

You can be understood by Thais familiar with typical farang mispronunciations, or "Engthai." She can be understood only by farang familiar with typical Thai mispronunciations. Same thing. Yes, she needs to study the use V in that particular word.

 

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I have no idea what letters are in that word - neither does that matter.

That's right, you don't. It matters because without even knowing the spelling in Thai, you think you know how it should be pronounced and attempt to bolster that point with English spelling. It's rather absurd, if you think about it. ????

 

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

So I have to speak Thai correctly but Thai's can say what the hell they like??

Your ability with Thai obviously isn't sufficient for you to be able to discern critical differences or similarities. When you can speak as well as a Thai who you think isn't speaking Thai correctly, then you can say what the hell you like as long as you are speaking as well as that Thai. Fair enough, eh. Satisfied?

 

That said, Thailand does have regional dialects that are more or less comprehensible outside of their region. They may even have a different writing system: Lanna. Hence the advantage of "standard" Thai, which some do speak with a regional accent. China is an extreme case: thank god they have Mandarin.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by BigStar

[Lacessit]

Thais who know me well can understand my Thai, even though I butcher the tones. Strangers can't. With them, I usually restate as simply as possibly with an alternative word choice. Plan C is to call my Thai GF and ask her to explain over the phone.

[GinBoy2]

It's hard for any non tonal language speaker to get get their head around this. We can speak in a language with different accent, tonal inflection and still be understood.

 

I learnt this hard lesson over 20 years ago when I learned to speak and write Mandarin, that tones mean everything.

 

My wife is Toi, her sister is Toy. One rising tone the other flat. To most westerners it's the same but to a Thai it's totally different, and to them pronounce it wrong and they have no idea to who you are talking to

Edited February 27, 2020 by GinBoy2

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, BigStar said:

What's "fine?"

Its a question - note the question mark.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, BigStar said:

You can disagree all you want to but that really doesn't help you in the least to be understood in Thai.

And I do disagree. With respect, I understand why you make reference to the tonal aspect and I do know that precise use of the tones may be essential because of the differences the wrong tone can make. But that's not the point I'm making.

 

I am refering to that fact that Thai's don't seem to understand some of what I say yet their use of English is often very wrong. The difference is that when they speak English poorly, I still understand them - in much the same way as I understand most foreigners in England when they attempt to speak English. Why? Because my brain automatically analyses the word they've said and thinks of what they really meant - the context may help a lot with this.

 

When I speak to some Thai's and get it wrong they just don't understand and don't even try to - as with the travel agent example in a previous post.

 

I stand by what I've said - Thai's expect me to speak their language correctly but rarely speak mine 100%. Having said that, I note that Thai's who know me, my friends, girlfriend and her family do understand me but that comes with time.

 

I would also question the use of 'tones' in everyday speech between Thai's.  I've often thought that they can't possibly be using the tones 100% because of the speed some of them speak. One friend and another freind's wife both agreed that this does happen and that they often rely on the context of what is being discussed. I.E. you are more likely to be taking your dog for a walk than your horse but to a lot of non Thai's, the 2 words (dog and horse) sound the same in Thai.

 

People from all countries need to make allowances for others trying to communicate and I believe, mostly do. Without that there would be little understanding at all. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by KhaoYai

[GinBoy2]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

And I do disagree. With respect, I understand why you make reference to the tonal aspect and I do know that precise use of the tones may be essential because of the differences the wrong tone can make. But that's not the point I'm making.

 

I am refering to that fact that Thai's don't seem to understand some of what I say yet their use of English is often very wrong. The difference is that when they speak English poorly, I still understand them - in much the same way as I understand most foreigners in England when they attempt to speak English. Why? Because my brain automatically analyses the word they've said and thinks of what they really meant - the context may help a lot with this.

 

When I speak to some Thai's and get it wrong they just don't understand and don't even try to - as with the travel agent example in a previous post.

 

I stand by what I've said - Thai's expect me to speak their language correctly but rarely speak mine 100%. Having said that, I note that Thai's who know me, my friends, girlfriend and her family do understand me but that comes with time.

 

I would also question the use of 'tones' in everyday speech between Thai's.  I've often thought that they can't possibly be using the tones 100% because of the speed some of them speak. One friend and another freind's wife both agreed that this does happen and that they often rely on the context of what is being discussed. I.E. you are more likely to be taking your dog for a walk than your horse but to a lot of non Thai's, the 2 words (dog and horse) sound the same in Thai.

 

People from all countries need to make allowances for others trying to communicate and I believe, mostly do. Without that there would be little understanding at all. 

English is an interesting language, even when compared to other Western languages.

 

A German friend of mine summed it up quite well I think when he said;

 

"English is an easy language to speak badly. But learn vocabulary and string it together in almost any order and you will be understood"

 

And I understand this totally, since as an Hispanic, the same can not be said of Spanish

Edited February 27, 2020 by GinBoy2

[uhuh]

4 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

English is an interesting language, even when compared to other Western languages.

 

A German friend of mine summed it up quite well I think when he said;

 

"English is an easy language to speak badly. But learn vocabulary and string it together in almost any order and you will be understood"

 

And I understand this totally, since as an Hispanic, the same can not be said of Spanish

The opposite is true

[EVENKEEL]

We got a laugh when my father asked a lady in the store "Sugar, where is it" and she thought he was getting fresh. Not in Thailand obviously.

Edited February 27, 2020 by EVENKEEL