Can Sanders beat Trump? A growing number of Democratic voters say yes

[WalkingOrders]

5 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

Mayor Pete is their only hope...he offers a centrist option and appeals to younger voters...

No black or Hispanic vote. He is dead in the water!

[Berkshire]

1 minute ago, gargamon said:

Put all this speculation on hold for another week until super Tuesday is completed. There's clearly not enough info at the moment to have an intelligent conversation. Clearly only mental masturbation is all that is going on now.

I don't think we even have to wait that long.  South Carolina this Saturday will tell us a lot.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, gargamon said:

Put all this speculation on hold for another week until super Tuesday is completed. There's clearly not enough info at the moment to have an intelligent conversation. Clearly only mental masturbation is all that is going on now.

You do have a point but I think it's clear that both Biden and Bernie are going to do well in South Carolina. If Biden doesn't win South Carolina there would be no good reason for him to continue. But he probably will win South Carolina. I think it's good that the other democrats other than Bernie are now pounding him with his socialist label electability problem. There is still time to stop this disaster. If people think his fellow democrats are being hard on him about that, just imagine what 45 will do to him 24/7 if he is nominated.

[Cory1848]

37 minutes ago, jingjai9 said:

Sanders is not really a socialist. He is more or less a Roosevelt Democrat wishing to use socialist flavored programs and policies to save captalism. Roosevelt told the corporate leaders of the 1930's - "share the wealth or risk real trouble" as the distribution of weath was concentrated among the rich in the 1920's. Therefore it is easy for Bernie to truly say he is not a radical. A radical would want to bring down all of the capitalist institutions. Bernie wants to redistribute the wealth held by the one tenth of one percent at the top.

 

America has always put forth an intellectually dishonest portrayal of socialism. The Soviet Union may have had socialist aspirations after the revolution, but what they ended up with is state capitalism. The US equated the government of the USSR with socialism and used that argument to put a lid on socialist ideas. In the US,the rap I heard as a youngster was, "well if you like them socialist ideas, why  then do you go to Russia?" Even US textbooks portrayed Marx at best as a Utopian thinker or unkindly as a failed philosopher. 

 

Bernie Sanders is one of the first mainstream politicians in a long time to make a distinction between his "democratic socialism" and the socialism of Russia, Cuba and the Soviet bloc of the cold war era. Joe Biden and Trump still use the cold war argument against socialism. 

 

Bernie's enemies are the donor class that supports Biden, Trump, Pelosi and Schumer and perhaps Mayor Pete as well. It is this donor class that has a great stake in maintaining the status quo. They love to use the argument that someone too far to the left at the top of the democratic ticket would assure a Trump victory. The corporate media seem to endorse this idea.

Thanks for the fact-based comment. The nonstop labeling of Sanders as a “socialist” or “communist” and the debasing of words like “socialism” and “socialized medicine” indeed get tiresome, and it’s only going to get worse if Sanders is the candidate. (And, given the apparent effectiveness of right-wing propaganda -- evidenced by many comments in this forum -- such labeling may indeed make it difficult for Sanders to get elected.)

 

Sanders recognizes as you point out that the existing income disparity, and the completely unregulated brand of capitalism that allows such disparity to grow unchecked (neoliberalism), is morally repulsive. As for “socialized medicine,” a more palatable way to phrase it might be, the removal of the profit motive from all aspects of health care. (If the possibility exists to profit from the sale of opioids to the public, then plenty of entrepreneurs will step up and take advantage of that possibility; the only solution is to change the system.) Free-market capitalism is appropriate for consumer goods and services; it has no business influencing the distribution of essential human services.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I don't think we even have to wait that long.  South Carolina this Saturday will tell us a lot.

Yes. Mainly about Biden. If he loses and drops out the dynamic of the race will change dramatically. 

[papa al]

Doesn't matter which fool the Dems nominate.

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, Farangwithaplan said:

Bloomberg is an image of what is bad in the white house now. US is not ready for Buttigieg to kiss his partner or other shows of affection.

Sanders is getting torn down by his own people yet he seems to be the person with the most considered positions on a number of important points. Whether or not people agree with those points is another thing. Sanders is also an ordinary communicator with poor body language. But that has not stopped people being elected president in the past.

Biden does not seem to offer anything in the way of well considered policy and will have a stigma from the smear campaign placed on him by the impeached president.

 

Will another candidate come out of the woodwork or is it already too late for someone to enter and resonate with the people and the party?

 

 

It is too late. We have our final list of choices now. This election is not really about policy. It's a referendum on 45. If the democrats put up anyone remotely acceptable, 45 is vulnerable. The one choice of the finalists that won't be acceptable enough in a CENTER RIGHT WING country is indeed Bernie. That may be a horrible situation but that's the reality. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, papa al said:

Doesn't matter which fool the Dems nominate.

We'll see about that, amigo. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

Just thrill me to pieces to have a man of firm principles and a very likable man running against a immoral and unethical Trump. Sanders will appeal to most people on the streets angry with Wall Streets and the billionaires that Trump keep giving. 

Yeah, it will be very "thrilling" until election day when 45 will cream him, keep the senate, and take the house. That result would be an existential threat to American democracy and the pipe dream of a President Bernie just isn't worth that risk!

[papa al]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

American democracy

USA has a representative republic,

not a democracy.

Democracy: 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.

[Cryingdick]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I actually think we do have good candidates but keep in my mind in the USA --

 

Republicans are favored structurally (electoral college and suppression of minority voters

 

Incumbent presidents are always favored

 

Incumbent presidents in a good economy are incredibly difficult to beat

Here is something funny I heard today. With any luck we wil all have Corona virus and Bernie to lead us. 

[tlandtday]

There are two wild cards in the equation that could bring victory for Sanders.  1) illegal voters 2) the coronavirus will hurt the economy and the health care system will be in panic mode.  People want universal health care and this will make it even more necessary.

 

Bernie is a communist sympathizer.   Communists who Bernie cherishes such as Stalin and Mao and Castro killed many of their own people with Stalin being a madman in a slaughterhouse responsible for millons of deaths through his Gulags.  These Gulags were operated with the western powers knowing but doing nothing. A real crime against humanity.  So you want to start down Bernie's path?

[Cory1848]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It is too late. We have our final list of choices now. This election is not really about policy. It's a referendum on 45. If the democrats put up anyone remotely acceptable, 45 is vulnerable. The one choice of the finalists that won't be acceptable enough in a CENTER RIGHT WING country is indeed Bernie. That may be a horrible situation but that's the reality. 

I have to agree. While I fully support what Sanders (or Warren) would want to do and in fact am off to the left of them, I have to recognize that it will take several years of advocacy to bring a majority of the country to a consensus on some of their positions, if it ever happens at all. If what it takes to change administrations in 2020 is a billion dollars, then I’m solid behind Bloomberg; if what it takes is a candidate who’s easy on the eyes, then I’m all for Tulsi Gabbard, who’s somehow still in the race (she surfs too!). Whatever!

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, edogthong said:

Younger voters do NOT like him and minorities don't like him. Hell, the LGBTQ community don't even like him and he'd be the first gay president! He doesn't stand a chance in hell against Trump. Where do you get your information? 

I think LGBTQ people like that an out gay man has done so well. That's a historic situation. Though I do think the majority of LGBTQ people prefer other democratic candidates. There is no reason to support him only because he is gay. It's a similar dynamic in South Carolina where polls of African American democrats showed that Biden was strongly favored over the African American choices when there will still some in the running (but now all gone). 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Cory1848 said:

I have to agree. While I fully support what Sanders (or Warren) would want to do and in fact am off to the left of them, I have to recognize that it will take several years of advocacy to bring a majority of the country to a consensus on some of their positions, if it ever happens at all. If what it takes to change administrations in 2020 is a billion dollars, then I’m solid behind Bloomberg; if what it takes is a candidate who’s easy on the eyes, then I’m all for Tulsi Gabbard, who’s somehow still in the race (she surfs too!). Whatever!

I'll never understand the appeal of Gabbard, but that's academic. She has zero chance.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, STALINGRAD said:

The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other peoples money....

That's true but the way 45 has run up the deficit that's a problem coming from different flavors of politicians. 

[Cory1848]

8 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

There are two wild cards in the equation that could bring victory for Sanders.  1) illegal voters 2) the coronavirus will hurt the economy and the health care system will be in panic mode.  People want universal health care and this will make it even more necessary.

 

Bernie is a communist sympathizer.   Communists who Bernie cherishes such as Stalin and Mao and Castro killed many of their own people with Stalin being a madman in a slaughterhouse responsible for millons of deaths through his Gulags.  These Gulags were operated with the western powers knowing but doing nothing. A real crime against humanity.  So you want to start down Bernie's path?

My goodness what are you talking about. Bernie now wants to start up a gulag system? You sound like Joseph McCarthy, who died more than sixty years ago; his reputation hasn't aged well.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

A 79-87 year old Communist. Impossible America would vote for that. The DNC will opt for a Bloomberg/Clinton ticket at the end.

Well, don't be so sure about what will happen at the convention.

If he reaches the delegate majority, unlikely but possible, he gets nominated.

If he has the lead and the next candidate down is very far down, I don't believe he will be denied the nomination because of the understandable blowback from the Bernie fans.

If he has the lead and it's not a big one, then yes I think it's highly likely that he won't be nominated.

The real question is the exact definition of a BIG ENOUGH lead for Bernie to be assured the nominated.

Stay tuned. 

[WalkingOrders]

This piece obviously meant to give Bernie a boost. Having said that, only one candidate.. All alone...has the enthusiasm, and momentum to give Trump a run.

 

That is obviously Comrade Sanders.

 

The rest of the Democrat pack is a feeble embarrassed mess, and if they really want to stop Trump, they should all throw the towel right now and get behind Sanders, and stop trying to tear him apart on the debate stage. On Super Tuesday he will destroy all of them, and if any backroom nonsense about superdelegates switching votes happens it will accomplish only one thing.

 

It will give the appearance that Bernie is every bit the dangerous communist that conservatives, and even moderate Democrats say he is, because it will appear that even Democrats are afraid of him. This will potentially weaken him in the general election. How? It could cause moderates to simply stay home.

 

Now can he beat Trump? The ability for Sanders to turn out the vote in substantial record breaking numbers, including blacks and Hispanics, without losing moderates is what he must do.

 

Trump side is reporting a moderate increase of Hispanics and black voters. Blacks, as high as 22% or above. Does this translate to actual votes? Remains to be seen. 

 

For certain, I respect the Sanders ground game. 

 

As for Trump, his base will remain in unfractured and solid, and will show up and vote. Any minority move his way helps, capturing fear of Sanders a being far radical helps pull some centrist voters his direction. The youth vote? How big is it, and where is it?

 

I know I have raised lots of questions, the temptation now is to start posting links to polls that bolster claims, and counter claims. I view all this as meaningless. 

 

Bottom line which side gets a record turnout! And the longer the Democrats beat on Bernie, the harder they make it for him to win.

 

I take the Sanders campaign seriously. And I favour Trump to win.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by WalkingOrders
A

[Cory1848]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'll never understand the appeal of Gabbard, but that's academic. She has zero chance.

I was totally kidding about Gabbard; I wonder why she hasn't dropped out yet. I found her candidacy somewhat intriguing several months ago, if only because it seemed so bizarre ...

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, jingjai9 said:

Sanders is not really a socialist.

Very true, which is why it is baffling that Bernie and others like AOC insist on saddling themselves with the "socialist" label.  What advantage could that label possibly promise over, say, "progressive?"  I think this is their biggest mistake.  Bernie probably did it out of orneriness and a lack, until recently of ambition for higher office.  So, now he will have to counteract 100 years or more of right-wing propaganda that is securely lodged in the brains of much of the electorate.  Why make your already uphill battle even more so?

[Jingthing]

55 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

I like to her this. Mark my words;  Hilary in 2020

Marked as redonkulous.

[Lacessit]

Sanders has a lot of historical baggage. I'd expect Trump to be working on that with everything he has got.

[WalkingOrders]

3 hours ago, Marknreston said:

While your statement regarding Mayor Pete’s problems with millennials and minorities is true, it is also true that neither millennials nor minorities tend to turnout.   However, Sanders nomination for the Democratic Party nominee for President is a gift to Trump.  He will eat Sanders alive with Bernies socialist views and unaffordable/unpassable health, education, childcare plans. I spite of current polling numbers I can see another Nixon/McGovern scenario.  

Potentially. The youth vote is an unknown, and that is a question, about minority vote as well. I do not underestimate Sanders.

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Very true, which is why it is baffling that Bernie and others like AOC insist on saddling themselves with the "socialist" label.  What advantage could that label possibly promise over, say, "progressive?"  I think this is their biggest mistake.  Bernie probably did it out of orneriness and a lack, until recently of ambition for higher office.  So, now he will have to counteract 100 years or more of right-wing propaganda that is securely lodged in the brains of much of the electorate.  Why make your already uphill battle even more so?

So true. Even Danes or Singaporeans refrain from calling themselves socialists. He put himself unnecessarily in a pickle to untangle that large target from his detractors. 

[WalkingOrders]

3 hours ago, Katipo said:

It's kind of weird. Bernie is energising and uniting Democrats like no other candidate, and clearly appears to be the 'peoples choice', and yet the Dem establishment would have us believe he will harm Democratic chances of a win. How did that strategy work out for them last time? Hmmmmm. It's almost as though the Dem establishment is afraid of him. Hmmmmm. The two parties are different sides of the same coin. This is one of the reasons Trump succeeded, and hopefully why Bernie will also succeed. The US political establishment needs a complete colon cleanse.

It can be said the establishment center of both parties, the neo con / neo liberal consensus, is indeed a two headed coin, but both parties are now severely fractured.

[Baerboxer]

4 hours ago, Vigilante said:

Chances of Bernie getting the nomination are quite slim.

He will get bumped at the convention by the DNC bigwigs ('unelectable' etc)

Assuming he gets it I would give him a 50/50 chance

Ppl like freebies and Bernie will promise them by the truckload

Trump's slogans will be yesterday's warmed-up spaghetti.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, Maybe.

 

Britain had a veteran very wealthy millionaire "socialist", who also came across at times as a grumpy old man, promising lots of freebies; fighting against a candidate widely disliked (so they said), made fun of and dismissed as a buffoon. 

 

We all know which one won!

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Would it not be true that revised policies would be put in place to ensure these folks are taken care off?

Agree that would make sense, but that's not what Bernie is saying with flapping arms. If he would leave those who are OK with our present Ins alone then fine.

[riclag]

   My countries fight against Maxism  and democratic socialism ideology has a long history with many fatalities to show for it. Hopefully, the history of  government control as seen in other instances from past failed experiments  won't take place in my country ! I won't be voting for sanders . There is a profound reason why he a Independent, never affiliated himself with the dem party !

 

 “Totalitarian democracy is almost always secular and materialistic, and its adherents tend to treat politics as a substitute for religion. Their sacred mission is to use the coercive power of the state to remake man and society according to an abstract ideal of perfection. The virtue of any individual is defined by whether they are aligned with the program.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/barr-warns-strain-of-progressivism-that-embraces-secular-age-and-socialism-is-undermining-democracy

Edited February 27, 2020 by riclag

[WalkingOrders]

1 hour ago, Cory1848 said:

Thanks for the fact-based comment. The nonstop labeling of Sanders as a “socialist” or “communist” and the debasing of words like “socialism” and “socialized medicine” indeed get tiresome, and it’s only going to get worse if Sanders is the candidate. (And, given the apparent effectiveness of right-wing propaganda -- evidenced by many comments in this forum -- such labeling may indeed make it difficult for Sanders to get elected.)

 

Sanders recognizes as you point out that the existing income disparity, and the completely unregulated brand of capitalism that allows such disparity to grow unchecked (neoliberalism), is morally repulsive. As for “socialized medicine,” a more palatable way to phrase it might be, the removal of the profit motive from all aspects of health care. (If the possibility exists to profit from the sale of opioids to the public, then plenty of entrepreneurs will step up and take advantage of that possibility; the only solution is to change the system.) Free-market capitalism is appropriate for consumer goods and services; it has no business influencing the distribution of essential human services.

To be fair, Sanders considers himself a Socialist. I consider him a Marxist, and a Trotskyite.