Top British home office mandarin quits over minister's behaviour

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

How does that fit into this thread ?

It dosen,t

[sanemax]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

My point is Johnson and his extreme right wing government are clearing house of anyone who does not hold the same views as they do. 

They have already given warning the judiciary is going to be purged.

If you voted for Johnson then you have facilitated this.

Are you happy with that?

Well the guy quit his job, rather than getting fired .

It was his choice to leave .

Also whilst the Government are Conservative, they are not" extreme right wing"

Although I accept that some people feel that anyone who isnt a leftie, is actually a Nazi .

And people who are non political are really Nazi sympathizers and they all must be silenced or killed   

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, Proboscis said:

I hate to break this to you but Sir Humphrie was a fictious character.

 

Anyone who thinks that the cabinet and parliament are superflous and the civil services mandrins are the ones who are really making policy are deluded. Take the example of Northern Ireland. The province ground to a halt and people suffered because no policies or budgets were being generated by the NI Assembley. People suffered because of this.

 

What is of great concern is the fact that the Johnson government appears to be following the Trump model, which is to get rid of the non-partisan senior civil servants who serve all types of governments and replace them with yes-men. The job of civil servants at senior level is to show the policy makers what the outcomes of their policies are likely to be and to serve them with the unvarnished facts. We can see the stark importance of this in the case of the Corona Virus situation. Politicians may want to present matters to suit themselves but the civil service's job is to tell it as it is. Only this way can we as voters get to choose.

 

So, if you want to know whether the GNP of a country is growing or not, you should ask the civil service. A politician may well tell you that the economy is growing at a great rate but it is only when you get your hands on the facts that you can be sure.

 

I would have thought that this is Civics 101 - but clearly not to many people.

 

since so many readers express that they appreciate your entry

I nip in and express that I dislike it and disagree with it and sincerely hope that UK works somewhat differently

 

would be extremely hard to run a country and have politics implemented as the government wants in your scenario

 

at any rate;

guess UK might develop from Brino to Brexit even if there are non-partisan bureacrats left

 

 

[RJRS1301]

Boris Trump???

 

[sanemax]

27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Probably a lot of people in 1930's Germany thought the same.

Look how that turned out.

I am quite sure that people in Germany in the 1930's had no opinion about Boris's 2020 UK Government .

  although I haven't personally asked them, I am still quite sure of it  

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

Boris Trump???

 

Don Johnson ?

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, samran said:

You need a civil service to deliver impartial advice. All the will do is open then door for arselickers to take his place.  

The civil service is 'rejoiner-heavy' & has just found out that it can't ('Impartially' lol) 'Bercow' this Govt.

[Thingamabob]

Rutnam has been a disaster at the home office. His departure is long overdue. Should have been sacked years ago for incompetence and disloyalty.

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, Proboscis said:

I hate to break this to you but Sir Humphrie was a fictious character.

The act of undermining (by the uncivil service) is very real...

(The only thing missing is the knife!)

Edited March 1, 2020 by evadgib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 hours ago, rooster59 said:

"I have received allegations that her conduct has included shouting and swearing, belittling people, making unreasonable and repeated demands - behaviour that created fear."

 

You mean to say, she's planning to defect and join the Trump Admin in the USA???  

[samran]

23 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The civil service is 'rejoiner-heavy' & has just found out that it can't ('Impartially' lol) 'Bercow' this Govt.

What’s the civil service going to do, singlehandedly stop brexit? 

[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The civil service is 'rejoiner-heavy' & has just found out that it can't ('Impartially' lol) 'Bercow' this Govt.

 

guess you are fairly right with that view,

that is why it is very important that the CS does not work along the lines suggested by probiscis above

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, samran said:

What’s the civil service going to do, singlehandedly stop brexit? 

Well it had a good try at it for three years or so. Sir Philip has probably had the hump since at least 31st January.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by nauseus

[Thingamabob]

5 hours ago, Bundooman said:

His too.

He's a 'Sir' He's been in the job 33 years. He knows 'everything about the Home Office and he thinks, obviously, that his knowledge is better than anyone else's.

Patel is the second woman that Putnam has worked for. It is the second time that he has clashed with a woman. I wonder why?

 

Maybe he thought HE should be in line for that top job and not them?

He comes across as a proper little 'girl's blouse' - doesn't like being told what to do by a woman.

I bet he did as he was told by Maggie Thatcher!

He is a prissy little pratt!

Well said.

[theoldgit]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

but I saw a video interview with the chap that resigned, actually saw it twice,

and it is really not clear to me why the chap actually resigned - his grounds,

he expressed some negative views on the boss (and her colleagues I think) but not really

anything clear

 

But as he indicated he was going to commence legal proceedings he would be more than aware that the Treasury Solicitors, or as they're now called the  Government Legal Department, would be pouring over everthing he's said, that's why I suspect he concluded with the phrase "I will make no further comment at this stage", he needs to protect his back. 

[ratcatcher]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Probably a lot of people in 1930's Germany thought the same.

Look how that turned out.

Yes, I expect Boris will herd the Scots into camps for starters. No comparison with Nazi Germany.

The government runs the country, the snivel service obeys the orders of the government by enacting government policies. Surely that's how democracy works? Or is supposed to.

[theoldgit]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

is that so?

 

will you find this is the civil servant's job descriptions/emplyment contracts?

or maybe

to be found in some statute regulating dos and donts of civil servants

 

from where to you take that stipulation?

or is it maybe your view on how it should be?

 

It will almost certainly be in his job description, which will have been approved by the Cabinet Office.

Ministers dicate policy and it's the Civil Servants job to advise Ministers how to make that into law, and then implement that law.

If a Civil Servant of Sir Philips grade didn't point out where he believd a Minister was going off tangent, he would be failing in his duty as well as his duties to the Minister concerned.

Of course Ministers can ignore the advice given and, with a large majority, can push legislation through, advice will of  course remain on record and if ignored has a nasty habit of coming back to haunt said Minister.
Ministers don't, or at least shouldn't, attempt to implement their poicies by bullying and intimidating staff.
 

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, sanemax said:

  5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. 

 

  Response of sanemax: How does that fit into this thread ?

Just use your brains...

Edited March 1, 2020 by puipuitom

[puipuitom]

5 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

Written in 1946 by Martin NieMoller regarding the cowardly lack of action by the German intellectuals, establishment & clergy.

I don't think the government of Boris Johnson has, by a long way, reached the level of Adolf Hitler's

Thsi quoting… has ZERO to do with Hitler, nor with WO 2, but only… just common intelectial wisdom. Pity, for many too difficult to understand.

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

It will almost certainly be in his job description, which will have been approved by the Cabinet Office.

Ministers dicate policy and it's the Civil Servants job to advise Ministers how to make that into law, and then implement that law.

If a Civil Servant of Sir Philips grade didn't point out where he believd a Minister was going off tangent, he would be failing in his duty as well as his duties to the Minister concerned.

Of course Ministers can ignore the advice given and, with a large majority, can push legislation through, advice will of  course remain on record and if ignored has a nasty habit of coming back to haunt said Minister.
Ministers don't, or at least shouldn't, attempt to implement their poicies by bullying and intimidating staff.
 

right

this sounds (reads) pretty much like your view on how things should be

which is fair enough but not necessarily a reflection of reality

 

[cleopatra2]

24 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right

this sounds (reads) pretty much like your view on how things should be

which is fair enough but not necessarily a reflection of reality

 

The civil servant is obliged to not mislead the minister and advise given regard to all the facts and evidence.

Thus if what the minister is suggesting is unlawful the CS is duty bound to say so.

 

See the civil service code and civil service ethical code.

[nauseus]

39 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Just use your brains...

deleted after misreading an altered quote... 

Edited March 1, 2020 by nauseus

[RJRS1301]

58 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

Yes, I expect Boris will herd the Scots into camps for starters. No comparison with Nazi Germany.

The government runs the country, the snivel service obeys the orders of the government by enacting government policies. Surely that's how democracy works? Or is supposed to.

The civil service is expected to give frank and fearless advice to those in the government.

The policies passed by both houses then become law, and acted upon by the civil service

[nauseus]

46 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Thsi quoting… has ZERO to do with Hitler, nor with WO 2, but only… just common intelectial wisdom. Pity, for many too difficult to understand.

That statement is rather difficult to believe.

[Kelsall]

What's a "mandarin?"

Edited March 1, 2020 by Kelsall

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

Well the guy quit his job, rather than getting fired .

It was his choice to leave .

Also whilst the Government are Conservative, they are not" extreme right wing"

Although I accept that some people feel that anyone who isnt a leftie, is actually a Nazi .

And people who are non political are really Nazi sympathizers and they all must be silenced or killed   

You didnt answer my points.

Are you happy with an extreme right wing government purging the civil service and the judiciary? 

[sirineou]

Quote

Top British home office mandarin quits over minister's behaviour

Can someone please explain the title of this article?I am American and don't understand how the term "Mandarin" applies. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, ratcatcher said:

Yes, I expect Boris will herd the Scots into camps for starters. No comparison with Nazi Germany.

The government runs the country, the snivel service obeys the orders of the government by enacting government policies. Surely that's how democracy works? Or is supposed to.

Any democracy needs checks and balances.

You appear to be in favour of those being removed. 

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

What's a "mandarin?"

A "bigwig".

[theoldgit]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

right

this sounds (reads) pretty much like your view on how things should be

which is fair enough but not necessarily a reflection of reality

 

I can assure that I'm talking from experience, I don't intend to go any further than that.