Britain tells the EU: we shall not sell out our fishermen

[david555]

1 minute ago, transam said:

No, I don't eat UK fish ..................????

hey ...co incidence , i eat only accidental fish , and I never saw carrying it a blue or even red passport ….????

[david555]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

It does appear that the EU wants to have your cake and eat it too  regarding fishing, I understand if you leave the EU club, you can't have the same access as a club member, but that applies both ways. The EU have stated the UK must “uphold” existing reciprocal access to fishing grounds or what is known as "Status quo" but they have to understand you can't have you cake and eat it also applies to them, Once we have left the club the rules of access change

My reply was only pointing out very clear that any move, get's a counter move from opposite party ….. from which ever side started  ….

Edited March 5, 2020 by david555

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, david555 said:

My reply was only pointing out very clear that any move, get's a counter move from opposite party ….. from which ever side started  ….

Yes and the EU opening position is they want the same access that they currently have even though the UK has left the EU Club.

IF the UK opening position for trade talks was We want same access that we currently have but without Freedom of Movement and without paying for a  Subscription Fee I would expect the EU to say Non

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

30 September 2019, the pound sterling represented the fourth largest proportion (by USD equivalent value) of foreign currency reserves

 

Oh I quite accept that, this is absolutely correct. Right after USD, 61%, Euro 21% and Yen, 5%. As you can see banks much prefer to hold the Euro as a reserve currency.

 

 

[david555]

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Yes and the EU opening position is they want the same access that they currently have even though the UK has left the EU Club.

IF the UK opening position for trade talks was We want same access that we currently have but without Freedom of Movement and without paying for a  Subscription Fee I would expect the EU to say Non

yes you are right , you are out of the club …., so all you wish to have as before are under this difficult negotiation.... so   U.K. as a stranger 3th country candidate for trade wishes to have...or not .

 

And I don't think E.U. go step down from the 3 mantras......so I guess the tactics go step in from both sides...

Like a game of "Stratego"

[Logosone]

56 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 The fishing issue has come to the top of the list before talkies have even begun. It may not be top of the tree economically but politically it has the potential to be a huge problem for some of the governments within the EU, especially France and Spain. Macron does not need to see the French fishermen put on their yellow vests on as well as their wellies.

 

 

The fishing issue is receiving disproportionate attention simply because it gives the British the illusion that they have some modicum of control going into the scary negotiations with the EU, and because it distracts from the real, far more important economic issues.

 

Oh, the Europeans want something from us and we can decide to give it or not, or maybe use it as a negotiating chip. Nothing could be further from the truth. Two thirds of fish caught by British boats are exported to EU markets. It is your fisheries that need the EU far more than European fisheries need fish from British waters.

 

In terms of the EU, it has for years tried to REDUCE the size of the fishing fleet, in order to sustain fish resources, and indeed the size of the fishing fleet has been steadily decreasing.

 

In all of France 20,000 people work in the fishing industry, of those 30 per cent in aqua culture, so that leaves around 14,000 people. Of those the vast majority fish in French and Spanish waters, not British waters. The number of people affected by the fish issue in France is miniscule. Macron will care about this about as much as a sack of rice falling over in China.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Fishery_statistics#The_factors_of_production

 

Politically it is far more of a problem for the UK than the French or any other country. Simply because the fish issue unites Denmark, Norway, Greece, France, Spain, Germany, et al against the British. If the British reject the very reasonable proposal from the EU to grant access to fish in return for access for fish products this would certainly unite almost all EU countries against the UK and therefore harden the EU stance. So far the EU has played nice and even excluded the Gibraltar issue, but if the UK is unreasonable it will no doubt have more problems than it already has.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Logosone

[transam]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The fishing issue is receiving disproportionate attention simply because it gives the British the illusion that they have some modicum of control going into the scary negotiations with the EU, and because it distracts from the real, far more important economic issues.

 

Oh, the Europeans want something from us and we can decide to give it or not, or maybe use it as a negotiating chip. Nothing could be further from the truth. Two thirds of fish caught by British boats are exported to EU markets. It is your fisheries that need the EU far more than European fisheries need fish from British waters.

 

In terms of the EU, it has for years tried to REDUCE the size of the fishing fleet, in order to sustain fish resources, and indeed the size of the fishing fleet has been steadily decreasing.

 

In all of France 20,000 people work in the fishing industry, of those 30 per cent in aqua culture, so that leaves around 14,000 people. Of those the vast majority fish in French and Spanish waters, not British waters. The number of people affected by the fish issue in France is miniscule. Macron will care about this about as much as a sack of rice falling over in China.

Then why is the EU demanding access to UK waters if it is of no consequence....?

[Logosone]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Then why is the EU demanding access to UK waters if it is of no consequence....?

Maybe a clever negotiation tactic. 'Mais vous excluded our fisherman from your waters, why can't we exclude your investment bankers from our mergers?'

 

It just makes sense to maximise demands prior to a negotiation. You ask as much as you can reasonably get away with.

 

Of course 35% of British fish tonnage each is still better than zero. But overall with such few people actually bothering to fish at all, growing acqua culture the fish access is of relatively minor importance.

 

The British won't grant access to fish? Voila, no more access for British fishers to sell two thirds of their fish in the EU, like they've been doing. 

 

Simples.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Maybe a clever negotiation tactic. 'Mais vous excluded our fisherman from your waters, why can't we exclude your investment bankers from our mergers?'

 

It just makes sense to maximise demands prior to a negotiation. You ask as much as you can reasonably get away with.

 

Of course 35% of British fish tonnage each is still better than zero. But overall with such few people actually bothering to fish at all, growing acqua culture the fish access is of relatively minor importance.

 

The British won't grant access to fish? Voila, no more access for British fishers to sell two thirds of their fish in the EU, like they've been doing. 

 

Simples.

Really, are you an insider....?

[Logosone]

Oh no need, to know how negotiations work. It's commonly taught to beginners in law schools, you maximise your demands as far as possible prior to going into a negotiation.

 

It's negotiation 101.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

have to disagree a bit here,

in the UK the UK law prevails

UNCLOS is a wish

The UK ratified the agreement, are you saying they plan to renege.

[soalbundy]

They will.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

nope

that ain't the way it works

 

UK statues apply no end

 

if the rest of the world is not happy with UK actions in line with UK law they can complain to the guys in Netherlands

 

International law prevails over domestic law. The UK made a big thing of that when they supported Kosovo in their declaration of independence.

The Law of the Sea takes conservation and migration into account and the UK will have to follow the guidelines, something ministers acknowledge.

 

But, if no deal could be reached by the end of June, the UK would automatically become an “independent coastal state” from next January, with the power to determine access arrangements.

“We would automatically take back control of our exclusive economic zone and there would be an obligation on both us and the European Union to work towards a sensible annual negotiation at the end of this year,” Mr Eustice said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/royal-navy-uk-waters-fishing-brexit-vessels-protect-a9374496.html

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

International law prevails over domestic law. The UK made a big thing of that when they supported Kosovo in their declaration of independence.

The Law of the Sea takes conservation and migration into account and the UK will have to follow the guidelines, something ministers acknowledge.

 

But, if no deal could be reached by the end of June, the UK would automatically become an “independent coastal state” from next January, with the power to determine access arrangements.

“We would automatically take back control of our exclusive economic zone and there would be an obligation on both us and the European Union to work towards a sensible annual negotiation at the end of this year,” Mr Eustice said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/royal-navy-uk-waters-fishing-brexit-vessels-protect-a9374496.html

Yeah but to be fair that was before Johnson started turning us into a rogue state.

It seems the agreement over no border in Ireland is also going to be ignored.

Brexit. Slowly turning us into North Korea but with worse weather.

[CG1 Blue]

12 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

that

seems like a likely outcome

but does UK command a fleet of floating devices sufficient for harvesting the UK waters?

or would additional/foreign harvesters be needed in order to keep stock in proper trim?

 

Good point - this will boost another UK industry; boat building ????

 

More than 50 new boats, ranging in size from 7m to 80m, are scheduled to be delivered to UK skippers in the next three years, representing an unprecedented reinvestment in the fishing industry of around £300m, reports David Linkie

https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/300m-fleet-investment-50-new-boats-scheduled-to-join-uk-fleet-by-2021-22/

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

15 hours ago, TheDark said:

I find these current Brexit events absolutely hilarious. I find the fact that brexiteers will have to bear the consequences and responsibilities of their actions amusing. So no anger on my side, simply entertainment. How about you? Are you fine how brexit turned out to be?

 

Just remember. You are one, who can be hold personally responsible for Brexit aftermath in 2021, 2022, 2023.. 2029.

Ah, so you get pleasure out of hoping that others are going to suffer? At least you've explained your motive. 

 

Me, yes I'm more than fine about Brexit. I'm delighted and optimistic about it. 

[Logosone]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Ah, so you get pleasure out of hoping that others are going to suffer? At least you've explained your motive. 

 

Me, yes I'm more than fine about Brexit. I'm delighted and optimistic about it. 

 

What exactly do you find delightful about Brexit?

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Ah, so you get pleasure out of hoping that others are going to suffer? At least you've explained your motive. 

 

Me, yes I'm more than fine about Brexit. I'm delighted and optimistic about it. 

Most Brexiteers on here are jubilant over the damage they are doing to the EU and are predicting its demise.

[melvinmelvin]

37 minutes ago, sandyf said:

International law prevails over domestic law. The UK made a big thing of that when they supported Kosovo in their declaration of independence.

The Law of the Sea takes conservation and migration into account and the UK will have to follow the guidelines, something ministers acknowledge.

 

But, if no deal could be reached by the end of June, the UK would automatically become an “independent coastal state” from next January, with the power to determine access arrangements.

“We would automatically take back control of our exclusive economic zone and there would be an obligation on both us and the European Union to work towards a sensible annual negotiation at the end of this year,” Mr Eustice said.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/royal-navy-uk-waters-fishing-brexit-vessels-protect-a9374496.html

your view, fine - enjoy

 

I, however, opt to strongly disagree with that view

 

UK law is the only thing that matters on the foggy islands

 

(in general, international law is as soft as sponge or tit or mashmellow or whipped cream - your choice

 UK police and UK courts act in accordance with UK law)

 

having said that, there are some very few exceptions where the pub patrons in Westminster have agreed

to giving presedence to off island rules

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Oh no need, to know how negotiations work. It's commonly taught to beginners in law schools, you maximise your demands as far as possible prior to going into a negotiation.

 

It's negotiation 101.

And this is exactly why the UK government is doing the same. Maximising demands. Boris deserves some credit for that. Appeaser May was too polite to take that approach. 

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Good point - this will boost another UK industry; boat building ????

 

More than 50 new boats, ranging in size from 7m to 80m, are scheduled to be delivered to UK skippers in the next three years, representing an unprecedented reinvestment in the fishing industry of around £300m, reports David Linkie

https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/300m-fleet-investment-50-new-boats-scheduled-to-join-uk-fleet-by-2021-22/

 

 

'bout time UK get her act together re floating devices

in the not too distant past UK had a BIG industry producing such

and the accompanying huge engines and host of other equipment

 

was it Mrs NO-NO-NO-NO that did away with that or the industrial actions in the 60s and 70s or

just lack of talent?

 

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Most Brexiteers on here are jubilant over the damage they are doing to the EU and are predicting its demise.

 

yes,

that is probably right

and that is to a large extent the result of limited thinking and mental capacity

 

in today's world with US foreign policy and actions being developed accidentally on twitter

and ever expansion-randy tsars in Russia and surroundings wading/grabbing around

and funny guy in Turkey wanting to compete with the tsar

and mega authoritarian mandarins in middle kingdom grabbing land and threateing the surroundings

 

it would be comfortable to have a strong and united Europe

I have no problem with UK leaving EU but the timing ain't optimal

wishing that EU vanishes down the pipes along with paper and dumps ain't gonna serve anyone

 

[CG1 Blue]

29 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

What exactly do you find delightful about Brexit?

Sovereignty is the main thing for me. The direction of travel of the EU is eroding member states' democratic powers. A permanent EU administration with ambitions for more and more power and influence.  I don't like foreign bureaucrats having the power to overrule our elected government.

Had it remained a trading bloc (as was originally proposed), Brexit would never have even been spoken about.

 

I'm happy we've managed to leave before we were even further embedded, and before the EU further dilutes the democratic power of individual nation states. Other things such as a fairer and more sensible immigration policy are a bonus. 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

44 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Most Brexiteers on here are jubilant over the damage they are doing to the EU and are predicting its demise.

Hopefully most of those want the EU's demise for the right reasons; i.e. so that we can revert to a simple Common Market without the political union. 

[TheDark]

52 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Ah, so you get pleasure out of hoping that others are going to suffer? At least you've explained your motive. 

 

Me, yes I'm more than fine about Brexit. I'm delighted and optimistic about it. 

1st: This must be the first time you admit that brexit causes suffering. It's good, that you have finally admitting it.

 

2nd: I find the events, the mismanagement, the lies which are still coming out from the current UK government, lies which are proven to be false, entertaining.

 

Entertaining because once also other brexiteers understand that the hard times are coming, unless current UK stance is is swapped to something better, there will be a regime change far before the next elections.  

 

Not all are fine with brexit, not even all of those who voted for brexit. The truth is coming out sooner or later.

[Logosone]

8 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sovereignty is the main thing for me. The direction of travel of the EU is eroding member states' democratic powers. A permanent EU administration with ambitions for more and more power and influence.  I don't like foreign bureaucrats having the power to overrule our elected government.

Had it remained a trading bloc (as was originally proposed), Brexit would never have even been spoken about.

 

I'm happy we've managed to leave before we were even further embedded, and before the EU further dilutes the democratic power of individual nation states. Other things such as a fairer and more sensible immigration policy are a bonus. 

 

 

Sovereignty was never really an issue for the UK while a EU member though. UK parliament agreed to cede primacy to EU law in a very limited number of areas. However, it was always clear that this was at the option of the House of Commons. Brexit, after all is the ultimate proof of this. It's not like the EU stepped in and said 'oh no, you can't do that''. The EU never stopped the UK from signing a significant treaty or pursuing its own interests in world affairs.

 

The sovereignty card is false propaganda that Brexiteers seem to believe themselves, but it is not a real argument.  Nor is it credible that MEPs elected in the UK somehow erode UK sovereignty.

 

The current immigration policy is hardly more sensible, since Poles and Romanians are allowed to enter and stay for 6 months. Do you really think they will leave after 6 months? They will just go underground. How this is fairer I fail to see. More the opposite of fair.

 

There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue.

 

 

[Logosone]

50 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

And this is exactly why the UK government is doing the same. Maximising demands. Boris deserves some credit for that. Appeaser May was too polite to take that approach. 

Absolutely. I was actually taught this in a UK law school. And it is very clear that Boris is doing exactly that, maximising demands, and in a very likeable way, as always. 

 

Still, I have to say I am surprised how inept the UK has handled negotiations. I fully expected the country with the greatest service providers and highest paid lawyers to run rings around French negotiators. This has not happened. However, it may not be because the UK has negotiated poorly. It may just be because the UK is in a much worse position. The EU is negotiatting from a position of massive strength and superiority in all aspects. Very hard for the UK to get any results in that case.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Logosone

[shy coconut]

On 3/2/2020 at 5:46 PM, kingdong said:

why?at least the fishermen won,t be having to throw half their catch back due to eu rules.

Well if they insist on landing juvenile fish, then the stocks will deplete and there will

be no fish for anyone, but hey ho rule brittania etc

[toolpush]

On 3/2/2020 at 7:48 PM, TheDark said:

Well, she is telling as it is. English fisheries are not going to be selling their fish to the EU once the no-deal brexit happens. Enough tariffs, extra paperwork with added costs, added delivery costs and delays will make sure of that. 

 

Again truth. It's not England which puts NHS deal to the table, it's USA which does that.

 

So much rumbling coming out of this government. I wonder what is the destination this government with it's huge mandate is going to walk away to? Abyss?

As I understand it, the issue is not the Brits selling fish to the EU. It is EU fishermen getting access to British waters to fish.

Secondly, what interest does the USA have in the NHS one way or the other? Doesn't affect them. Canada has it's nearly identical Medicare and they have a free trade agreement with the USA.

[Logosone]

3 minutes ago, toolpush said:

As I understand it, the issue is not the Brits selling fish to the EU. It is EU fishermen getting access to British waters to fish.

Secondly, what interest does the USA have in the NHS one way or the other? Doesn't affect them. Canada has it's nearly identical Medicare and they have a free trade agreement with the USA.

The two issues are linked. If EU fishermen do not get access to British waters British fisheries, who currently sell two-thirds of their fish to the EU won't get access to EU markets.

 

Sounds fair, no?