50 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes,

that is probably right

and that is to a large extent the result of limited thinking and mental capacity

 

in today's world with US foreign policy and actions being developed accidentally on twitter

and ever expansion-randy tsars in Russia and surroundings wading/grabbing around

and funny guy in Turkey wanting to compete with the tsar

and mega authoritarian mandarins in middle kingdom grabbing land and threateing the surroundings

 

it would be comfortable to have a strong and united Europe

I have no problem with UK leaving EU but the timing ain't optimal

wishing that EU vanishes down the pipes along with paper and dumps ain't gonna serve anyone

 

Dont agree with the limited thinking and mental capacity. I honestly believe they have simply listened to the wrong people who were promising them things which can never be delivered.

While Brexiteers and us Remainers disagree over this topic I am sure we would find we had far more in common than in difference. 

52 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sovereignty is the main thing for me. The direction of travel of the EU is eroding member states' democratic powers. A permanent EU administration with ambitions for more and more power and influence.  I don't like foreign bureaucrats having the power to overrule our elected government.

Had it remained a trading bloc (as was originally proposed), Brexit would never have even been spoken about.

 

I'm happy we've managed to leave before we were even further embedded, and before the EU further dilutes the democratic power of individual nation states. Other things such as a fairer and more sensible immigration policy are a bonus. 

 

 

fair enough

but never forget that UK has played a key role in making EU into what you dislike

 

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Yeah but to be fair that was before Johnson started turning us into a rogue state.

It seems the agreement over no border in Ireland is also going to be ignored.

Brexit. Slowly turning us into North Korea but with worse weather.

"Slowly turning us into North Korea but with worse weather."

 

But also both leaders have strange haircut ….????

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

It does appear that the EU wants to have your cake and eat it too  regarding fishing, I understand if you leave the EU club, you can't have the same access as a club member, but that applies both ways. The EU have stated the UK must “uphold” existing reciprocal access to fishing grounds or what is known as "Status quo" but they have to understand you can't have you cake and eat it also applies to them, Once we have left the club the rules of access change

Like fish cakes?

5 hours ago, Logosone said:

The fishing issue is receiving disproportionate attention simply because it gives the British the illusion that they have some modicum of control going into the scary negotiations with the EU, and because it distracts from the real, far more important economic issues.

 

Oh, the Europeans want something from us and we can decide to give it or not, or maybe use it as a negotiating chip. Nothing could be further from the truth. Two thirds of fish caught by British boats are exported to EU markets. It is your fisheries that need the EU far more than European fisheries need fish from British waters.

 

In terms of the EU, it has for years tried to REDUCE the size of the fishing fleet, in order to sustain fish resources, and indeed the size of the fishing fleet has been steadily decreasing.

 

In all of France 20,000 people work in the fishing industry, of those 30 per cent in aqua culture, so that leaves around 14,000 people. Of those the vast majority fish in French and Spanish waters, not British waters. The number of people affected by the fish issue in France is miniscule. Macron will care about this about as much as a sack of rice falling over in China.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Fishery_statistics#The_factors_of_production

 

Politically it is far more of a problem for the UK than the French or any other country. Simply because the fish issue unites Denmark, Norway, Greece, France, Spain, Germany, et al against the British. If the British reject the very reasonable proposal from the EU to grant access to fish in return for access for fish products this would certainly unite almost all EU countries against the UK and therefore harden the EU stance. So far the EU has played nice and even excluded the Gibraltar issue, but if the UK is unreasonable it will no doubt have more problems than it already has.

So far the EU has played nice and even excluded the Gibraltar issue? 

 

The most munificent EU. Oh why ever did we leave? Why, oh why? ????

 

 

47 minutes ago, toolpush said:

As I understand it, the issue is not the Brits selling fish to the EU. It is EU fishermen getting access to British waters to fish.

Secondly, what interest does the USA have in the NHS one way or the other? Doesn't affect them. Canada has it's nearly identical Medicare and they have a free trade agreement with the USA.

 

US pharmaceutical industry desire increased sale of "get better pills" at inflated prices in the UK

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

'bout time UK get her act together re floating devices

in the not too distant past UK had a BIG industry producing such

and the accompanying huge engines and host of other equipment

 

was it Mrs NO-NO-NO-NO that did away with that or the industrial actions in the 60s and 70s or

just lack of talent?

 

As history shows, British marine construction talent and capability always existed but the communist influence over the trades unions did not. 

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

US pharmaceutical industry desire increased sale of "get better pills" at inflated prices in the UK

And two other issues:  

 

The dissolution of NICE which very effectively selects medicine supplies on the basis of cost benefit.

 

The removal of laws/regulations prohibiting  direct marketing (advertising)  of medicines to the general public.

 

 

1 hour ago, TheDark said:

1st: This must be the first time you admit that brexit causes suffering. It's good, that you have finally admitting it.

Please show me where I admitted this. 

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

yes,

that is probably right

and that is to a large extent the result of limited thinking and mental capacity

 

in today's world with US foreign policy and actions being developed accidentally on twitter

and ever expansion-randy tsars in Russia and surroundings wading/grabbing around

and funny guy in Turkey wanting to compete with the tsar

and mega authoritarian mandarins in middle kingdom grabbing land and threateing the surroundings

 

it would be comfortable to have a strong and united Europe

I have no problem with UK leaving EU but the timing ain't optimal

wishing that EU vanishes down the pipes along with paper and dumps ain't gonna serve anyone

 

Speak for yourself, mate.

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Sovereignty was never really an issue for the UK while a EU member though. UK parliament agreed to cede primacy to EU law in a very limited number of areas. However, it was always clear that this was at the option of the House of Commons. Brexit, after all is the ultimate proof of this. It's not like the EU stepped in and said 'oh no, you can't do that''. The EU never stopped the UK from signing a significant treaty or pursuing its own interests in world affairs.

 

The sovereignty card is false propaganda that Brexiteers seem to believe themselves, but it is not a real argument.  Nor is it credible that MEPs elected in the UK somehow erode UK sovereignty.

 

The current immigration policy is hardly more sensible, since Poles and Romanians are allowed to enter and stay for 6 months. Do you really think they will leave after 6 months? They will just go underground. How this is fairer I fail to see. More the opposite of fair.

 

There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue.

 

 

Effluent alert.

1 hour ago, shy coconut said:

Well if they insist on landing juvenile fish, then the stocks will deplete and there will

be no fish for anyone, but hey ho rule brittania etc

UK fishing will be managed properly away from the useless CFP. 

56 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The two issues are linked. If EU fishermen do not get access to British waters British fisheries, who currently sell two-thirds of their fish to the EU won't get access to EU markets.

 

Sounds fair, no?

No.

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Effluent alert.

How so?

Do please give us the benefit of your in-depth analysis.  

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Sovereignty was never really an issue for the UK while a EU member though. UK parliament agreed to cede primacy to EU law in a very limited number of areas. However, it was always clear that this was at the option of the House of Commons. Brexit, after all is the ultimate proof of this. It's not like the EU stepped in and said 'oh no, you can't do that''. The EU never stopped the UK from signing a significant treaty or pursuing its own interests in world affairs.

 

The sovereignty card is false propaganda that Brexiteers seem to believe themselves, but it is not a real argument.  Nor is it credible that MEPs elected in the UK somehow erode UK sovereignty.

 

The current immigration policy is hardly more sensible, since Poles and Romanians are allowed to enter and stay for 6 months. Do you really think they will leave after 6 months? They will just go underground. How this is fairer I fail to see. More the opposite of fair.

 

There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue.

 

 

You and I have different definitions of sovereignty and a different opinion on the EU effect on it. I won't waste time going over these old arguments. And I won't claim that you fall for EU propaganda - as propaganda is also a tired argument (most often used by remainers). 

 

Immigration policy is now under the control of the UK government - that's the point. And we can show our objections (or not) at the ballot box. 

 

And as for this little speech from you: 

"There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue."

 

European values, and immigration not an issue? So how do you feel about Von Der Layen's recent comments about Greece being Europe's shield against immigration from Syria, effectively supporting the Greek authorities seen firing at refugee boats and pushing them away? Bit of a conundrum that one, for the liberal remainers!  

 

 

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

How so?

Do please give us the benefit of your in-depth analysis.  

Google it (or just read the excellent post #256 above).

 

Thanks Blue.

44 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

fair enough

but never forget that UK has played a key role in making EU into what you dislike

 

Yes, under the Europhiles Major and Blair. Pity the public were less aware back in those days. 

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

Sovereignty was never really an issue for the UK while a EU member though. UK parliament agreed to cede primacy to EU law in a very limited number of areas. However, it was always clear that this was at the option of the House of Commons. Brexit, after all is the ultimate proof of this. It's not like the EU stepped in and said 'oh no, you can't do that''. The EU never stopped the UK from signing a significant treaty or pursuing its own interests in world affairs.

 

The sovereignty card is false propaganda that Brexiteers seem to believe themselves, but it is not a real argument.  Nor is it credible that MEPs elected in the UK somehow erode UK sovereignty.

 

The current immigration policy is hardly more sensible, since Poles and Romanians are allowed to enter and stay for 6 months. Do you really think they will leave after 6 months? They will just go underground. How this is fairer I fail to see. More the opposite of fair.

 

There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue.

 

 

not sure that I buy all that, or more correctly: am sure I don't buy the above,

but when it comes to treaties

 

make an effort and read through the footnotes in the treaties that the UK has ratified over the past, say, 20 years,

then you'll see a more than a tad EU influence

 

 

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Google it (or just read the excellent post #256 above).

 

Thanks Blue.

Do you ever add to the debate or do you just post pointless one line nonsense?

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You and I have different definitions of sovereignty and a different opinion on the EU effect on it. I won't waste time going over these old arguments. And I won't claim that you fall for EU propaganda - as propaganda is also a tired argument (most often used by remainers). 

 

Immigration policy is now under the control of the UK government - that's the point. And we can show our objections (or not) at the ballot box. 

 

And as for this little speech from you: 

"There is no shining glory card for Brexit. It is, always was, and always will be, a self-centred betrayal of Europe, European values. It does not wear the feathers of sovereignty or defense against immigrants. The latter was not achieved, and the former was never an issue."

 

European values, and immigration not an issue? So how do you feel about Von Der Layen's recent comments about Greece being Europe's shield against immigration from Syria, effectively supporting the Greek authorities seen firing at refugee boats and pushing them away? Bit of a conundrum that one, for the liberal remainers!  

 

 

You will not extrapolate on how the EU supposedly eroded UK sovereignty because you can't and you know it's not a credible argument. 

 

Immigration is not under the control of the UK government. That same government has clearly stated that Poles and Romanians and any EU citizen can still enter the UK freely without a visa. So much for 'control' of borders. There is nothing of the sort at all. Poles and Romanians will just enter and overstay.

 

Personally I think Von der Leyen is a plagiarist, a nepotist and would not be where she is if not for the old feminists equivalent of the old boys network. However she is of course right that Greece should be supported in the face of cynical Turkish instigation of illegal mass tourism. No conundrum at all.

 

 

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes, under the Europhiles Major and Blair. Pity the public were less aware back in those days. 

 

right,

the plebs took its time to get up to speed

 

at any rate as we say in Yorkshire,

you should add Mrs NoNoNoNo to your list of "offenders", she was way more EUish, or EECish if you like,

than most foggy islanders care to remember

 

26 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Please show me where I admitted this. 

You implicated that I would enjoy suffering of brexiteers for what comes next. Read your own text again.

 

And btw. I did not implicate that, but said that this part of the brexit saga, when people are realising the faults of brexit, is actually quite amusing.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Dont agree with the limited thinking and mental capacity. I honestly believe they have simply listened to the wrong people who were promising them things which can never be delivered.

What were we promised that can never be delivered and who made those promises ?

3 minutes ago, TheDark said:

You implicated that I would enjoy suffering of brexiteers for what comes next. Read your own text again.

 

And btw. I did not implicate that, but said that this part of the brexit saga, when people are realising the faults of brexit, is actually quite amusing.

 

 

It's you who needs to read it again. I said: 

"Ah, so you get pleasure out of hoping that others are going to suffer?"

 

29 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Effluent alert.

Ok. At this point I'm getting tired of these stupid replies, which don't talk about the issues at all. Chihuahuas are not my type of dogs.

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

What were we promised that can never be delivered and who made those promises ?

Staying in the single market and customs union while ending freedom of movement.

But you already knew that.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Do you ever add to the debate or do you just post pointless one line nonsense?

Quality over quantity. Try it for a change.

The Leave campaigners lied through their teeth.

 

Switzerland does not have free access to the European Market. Swiss shares can not be traded in Europe.

 

It's a terrible delusion and astonishingly stupid to think you can emulate in a country of 66 million solutions from a country of 5 million.  Norway has huge oil, Switzerland is a major producer of goods. None of those things apply to the UK.

 

Hard to believe Brexiteers fell for this nonsense.

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Staying in the single market and customs union while ending freedom of movement.

But you already knew that.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Quality over quantity. Try it for a change.

Cabbage.