So Called Grandfather Clause...grandpa May Be Dead !

[Nawtilus]

I was renewing my Imm-O today, after going in yesterday to do it and spending 4 to 5 hours transfering stamps from old passport into new passport.

So today, the immigration lady told me that she was only going to give me 60 days.

I have a imm-O in support of a thai child, not married, had this for last 2 season, so this was my 3rd renewal.

Apart from er having a little chuckle at my phone number when she asked me for it....I thought she looked kinda cute in uniform and her bulging buttons....my phone has two 69's in it.....anyway, she said that they would consider it under the old system and rules, but for sure next year I will not e allowed to renew this type of visa unless I am 50yo.

I tried to get the info to her about being allowed to renew it based on the Grandpa clause, but she seemed to not understand and simply said that it will not be allowed anymore, but will consider this one as the rules are still somewhat misunderstood by all and there is a steep learning curve.

Apart from this, Bkk Bank was exemplary in its service to get me the letter required and I was amazed at the level received in there yesterday.

So anybody else had this response from Immigration re this grandpa clause ??

[sriracha john]

When coupled with:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=115598

(albeit that one concerns a different visa type altogether)

it looks like things are going to be screwy for awhile.

Inconsistencies abound now throughout the system.

btw, did you have to pay extra for that telephone number?

Edited April 10, 2007 by sriracha john

[Nawtilus]

Yes...little bit, I think from memory it was 2k.

[lopburi3]

I believe the grandfather was for support Thai wife only (use of 400k bank deposit). Recent reports talk of this only being a one year delay rather than a grandfather clause but the rule as published does not mention that.

[Maestro]

I tried to get the info to her about being allowed to renew it based on the Grandpa clause, but she seemed to not understand

The “grandfather clause” is not a term created by Immigration and therefore Immigration officials will not understand it. Consider it a colloquial or slang expression popularised by the farang.

Another previously available extension type, for investment, has also been excluded in the new rules (Thai Police Order 606/2549) but while this has been tacitly “grandfathered”, the same has not been done for the extension to support a Thai child.

Granting you an annual extension one more time, the Immigration officer has done you a very special favour. You must have made an exceptionally good impression on her – can’t have been only your phone number

--

Maestro

[OneeyedJohn]

I was going to say a lot more, but my impression at Mae Sai yesterday was that Immigration will help you as much as they can without breaking the rules.

Do not be dogmatic about the rules as they are truly open to interpretation.

[Phil Conners]

When coupled with:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=115598

(albeit that one concerns a different visa type altogether)

it looks like things are going to be screwy for awhile.

Inconsistencies abound now throughout the system.

btw, did you have to pay extra for that telephone number?

See also my post at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...12592&st=30 .... confirms the "granfathering rule" is only a one year delay.

[lopburi3]

It does not confirm any such thing in my reading. The law is regulation 606 and there is no mention of one year in the grandfather clause of 7.17. That there have been reports that people have been told this is alarming but far from authoritative. Believe this jury is still out.

[Khonwan]

I tried to get the info to her about being allowed to renew it based on the Grandpa clause, but she seemed to not understand

The “grandfather clause” is not a term created by Immigration and therefore Immigration officials will not understand it. Consider it a colloquial or slang expression popularised by the farang.

Another previously available extension type, for investment, has also been excluded in the new rules (Thai Police Order 606/2549) but while this has been tacitly “grandfathered”, the same has not been done for the extension to support a Thai child.

Granting you an annual extension one more time, the Immigration officer has done you a very special favour. You must have made an exceptionally good impression on her – can’t have been only your phone number

--

Maestro

Maestro, Lopburi3,

Your advice here that the "grandfathering" does not apply to the under 50's with prior extension for support of Thai child may well be correct (though, I hope not) but your interpretation of the regulations is contrary to Sunbelt's previous advice. I'm in exactly the same position as Nawtilus (under 50), and I fully expected to be treated as grandfathered in when I apply for my extension of stay to support my Thai daughters in two months time. Why? Nawtilus was told by Sunbelt that he was grandfathered in. See below.

Sunbelt assumes the grandfather clause will apply to such cases in several other replies throughout the thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=93446

Sunbelt - please confirm your current interpretation. Thanks.

Rgds

Khonwan

quote name='Sunbelt Asia' date='2006-11-21 19:40:23' post='995336']

Well that sucks then.

Is it just my bad luck now, or do they still issue them to people who were approved prior to this date.

By this I mean that I spent a reasonable sum to go to court to be recognised as the childs father and the support, now they change the rules just a year later.

Good news. You are "grandfathered in"

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[soundman]

I believe the grandfather was for support Thai wife only (use of 400k bank deposit). Recent reports talk of this only being a one year delay rather than a grandfather clause but the rule as published does not mention that.

Just a follow up to the other day, with the incorrectly dated letter.

Immigration accepted my application under the 400K rule, even though the funds had only been in the bank for a week. (not without a bit of harrangueing mind you)

However, they made both my wife & myself sign a statement, that in order to receive a one year extension next year based on the 400K rule, we both understood the money had to be in the account for 3 months.

This was on Monday this week...

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Maestro]

Sunbelt assumes the grandfather clause will apply to such cases in several other replies throughout the thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=93446

Good of you, Khonwan, to have remembered that old topic. I see that the OP of this topic is the same who in November received the good news from Sunbelt that he was “grandfathered”

Now it is I who am confused, because I remember all these other topics where other unmarried fathers reported their misfortune of no longer being able to get their annual extensions. But perhaps I remember wrongly and these were first-time applicants after October 1. Definitely, there is no such grandfather clause in Thai Police Order 606/2549 but now we have one confirmed case, Nawtilus, who got a “grandfathered” extension this month but was told it would be this time only. Let’s hear from others who are in the same situation, ie younger than 50, father of a Thai child, had an annual extension based on support of Thai child before October 1, 2006 and was given a new annual extension for the same reason.

And let me say this: I am happy to have been wrong and sincerely hope that all others in the same situation get a “grandfathered” extension, even if it is only for one time. Who knows, the rules may be eased by the time this “one-time” year is over and I sincerely hope that they will be eased.

--

Maestro

[sriracha john]

When coupled with:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=115598

(albeit that one concerns a different visa type altogether)

it looks like things are going to be screwy for awhile.

Inconsistencies abound now throughout the system.

btw, did you have to pay extra for that telephone number?

See also my post at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...12592&st=30 .... confirms the "granfathering rule" is only a one year delay.

Thanks for the link and for letting me know about yet another hair in the soup... I used to think I had a good handle on sorting out the requirements on a variety of visas, but I'm a lot less confident now.

I can't imagine what someone must think who is trying to wade through this quagmire for the first time.

It does point out the necessity to stay tuned to thaivisa for developments and on-the-ground reports to stay abreast of things.

Edited April 10, 2007 by sriracha john

[Sunny Valentine]

The said police order has actually two paragraphs that could be read as grandfathering: The general paragraph 13, which allows one year excemptions on the new rules to all those who are already in the system, and cannot provide evidence confirming to the new rules; and the specific paragraph 7.17, which allows the grandfathering of the 400000 in the bank to applicants already granted permission who are married to a thai wife.

It would not be the first event where the "competent officers" in Pattaya prove they are not able to read the rules. Although who knows, the rules might have changed yesterday and noone is aware of.

Sunny

[Maestro]

the specific paragraph 7.17, which allows the grandfathering of the 400000 in the bank to applicants already granted permission who are married to a thai wife.

...except that this topic is about an unmarried father, less than 50 years old, supporting his child of Thai nationality. But clause 13 is indeed general and can apply to all types of extension.

--

Maestro

[Khonwan]

... and sincerely hope that all others in the same situation get a “grandfathered” extension, even if it is only for one time. Who knows, the rules may be eased by the time this “one-time” year is over and I sincerely hope that they will be eased.

--

Maestro

Hear, hear!

Rgds

Khonwan

[Nawtilus]

Yes, glad someone else remembered the sunbelt advice, that is what all this is in relation to and the advice in very certain terms that it would all be ok.

My visa is not fully approved yet, have to go back to get it in 30 days, but I think they do not offer it for consideration past the first 2 desks if it is not going to happen.....hopefully.

As for impressing the immigration girl....I kind of think the phone number got her thinking, she was squirming after all of that. I was thinking to take my son or daughter for the cute factor, but went alone, so must just have been that aura about me....or my smelly socks and she thought I loved somtum.

Also as proof to my phone number causing her to become overly excited, she put the stamp for my visa in the wrong passport, some chinese guy has now got a visa stamp he will know nothing about, when I told her what she had done, she went all coy, red faced and embarrassed like.....just wish she was a little cuter and skinnier.

Would like to hear what others have been told and if anyone is heading in to do the same visa under same situation, please remember to ask specifically about it all.

But the immigration lawyer I met in there was nice and she gave me her personal email addy and phone number.

Edited April 11, 2007 by Nawtilus

[Sunbelt Asia]

No mention of a grandfather in the National Police Order for a parent under 50 years old (except 60 day visiting rights) as they have no clause for this type of extension in the Police Order. Many clients however have gotten an extension of stay based on having a Thai child, if they were approved for an extension prior to Oct 1st 2006. The reason given was they were “grandfathered.

We in fact have now been able to get extensions for parents less than 50 years old, approved that had never applied before Oct 1st 2006 for the extension of stay supporting a Thai national child. How? They were able to get a court order and Immigration is approving the extension based on this court order. When the Police Order first came out, they were not impressed enough if the court had given the father custody of the child, in order to issue an new extension of stay. This now has changed that the court order has some weight.

We are now in the Land of changes. This seems it will continue. If you choose to stay here, all you can do is deal with the change when it takes place. As of now, they are still approving applications for those who had the extension of stay permit based on supporting a Thai child, before Oct 1st, 2006.

Odds are high they will not approve any more extensions for support of a Thai national child after Oct 1st 2007, unless you are over 50 years old( even if you have a court order.)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[bilky]

Odds are high they will not approve any more extensions for support of a Thai national child after Oct 1st 2007, unless you are over 50 years old( even if you have a court order.)

Could you give some more details on that? I have been told (more than once) by almost everyone I have talked to at immigration that being a sole legal guardian (with court order stating so) there would be no problems extending. They would not commit to the distant future but said there was nothing to worry about.

They are, however, starting to think I'm a bit nuts asking about this every time I do my address report

I got the impression (from them) that the court order (and all the embarrassing details included in it) carried quite a bit of weight.

[Nawtilus]

So that is what we are saying, seems comments of the 'grandfather' clause were not so correct.

Usually a grandfather type clause means it is continuing and not just for one year. As said here by Sunbelt and seems a change of tune, that now it will only be for this year.

I also have the court documents.

[lopburi3]

The grandfather is for support Thai wife using 400k deposit method. That is in the law and is not restricted to one year (at least by law). There has been no grandfather of support child but it can fall under the one year delay in implementation of the new laws.

[Nawtilus]

If that is the case, then so be it.

But it is not what Sunbelt stated several times.

Anyway...<deleted> happens and more so here lately.

[Khonwan]

No mention of a grandfather in the National Police Order for a parent under 50 years old (except 60 day visiting rights) as they have no clause for this type of extension in the Police Order. Many clients however have gotten an extension of stay based on having a Thai child, if they were approved for an extension prior to Oct 1st 2006. The reason given was they were “grandfathered.

We in fact have now been able to get extensions for parents less than 50 years old, approved that had never applied before Oct 1st 2006 for the extension of stay supporting a Thai national child. How? They were able to get a court order and Immigration is approving the extension based on this court order. When the Police Order first came out, they were not impressed enough if the court had given the father custody of the child, in order to issue an new extension of stay. This now has changed that the court order has some weight.

We are now in the Land of changes. This seems it will continue. If you choose to stay here, all you can do is deal with the change when it takes place. As of now, they are still approving applications for those who had the extension of stay permit based on supporting a Thai child, before Oct 1st, 2006.

Odds are high they will not approve any more extensions for support of a Thai national child after Oct 1st 2007, unless you are over 50 years old( even if you have a court order.)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Sunbelt,

Your reply here, whilst being broadly positive and offering grounds for optimism, falls somewhat short of your authoritative, and still current, advice that under 50's with financially dependent child(ren) who have received an extension prior to 1st October 2006 for this reason are grandfathered in.

I refer to http://www.thaivisa.com/extensions/grandfather-clause.html (in that you do not exclude the support of Thai-child extension cases) and, more specifically, http://www.thaivisa.com/extensions/extensi...of-a-child.html

If, as you indicate in your reply above, the actual application of the interpreted rule is so uncertain, should you not revise your standing advice on these links?

With reference to a court order (as quoted above), do you mean the court order of legitimisation, or a court order for (sole?) custody?

Rgds

Khonwan

"Please note – If you have an extension based on supporting a Thai child that was issued before Oct 1st 2006, then the old rules still apply and will be covered under the grandfather clause.

(a grandfather clause is an exception which allows something pre-existing to remain as it is, despite a change to the contrary in the rules applied to newer situations.)"

[Nawtilus]

Is there anywhere that this is stated in thai on a government website which can be printed out and taken into Immigration on the days by those who may need it ??

[Sunbelt Asia]

If, as you indicate in your reply above, the actual application of the interpreted rule is so uncertain, should you not revise your standing advice on these links?

Those posts in the links have not been written by us. However, we did have the same viewpoint one time as this writer.

I'll repeat the current interpreted rule...

Odds are high they will NOT approve any more extensions for support of a Thai national child after Oct 1st 2007, unless you are over 50 years old( even if you have a court order.)

Until Oct 1st 2007, they will decide if they they will exempt the applicant on the basis of support of a Thai child and being under 50 years old. We have not yet had anyone denied yet, if they had the extension before Oct 1st 2006, but anything is possible.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Khonwan]

If, as you indicate in your reply above, the actual application of the interpreted rule is so uncertain, should you not revise your standing advice on these links?

Those posts in the links have not been written by us. However, we did have the same viewpoint one time as this writer.

I'll repeat the current interpreted rule...

Odds are high they will NOT approve any more extensions for support of a Thai national child after Oct 1st 2007, unless you are over 50 years old( even if you have a court order.)

Until Oct 1st 2007, they will decide if they they will exempt the applicant on the basis of support of a Thai child and being under 50 years old. We have not yet had anyone denied yet, if they had the extension before Oct 1st 2006, but anything is possible.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I'm sorry - I thought the links were written by you. Thanks for the clarification.