U.S. moves to cut Huawei off from global chip suppliers as China eyes retaliation

[DaRoadrunner]

7 hours ago, Tug said:

Message to trump we have enough problems allready without you creating more so you can throw some meat to your base let’s focus on the problems at hand ehh?

You have a good point there. However, love him or loathe him, Trump is all that's standing in the way of a Chinese economic takeover.

[earlinclaifornia]

4 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

You have a good point there. However, love him or loathe him, Trump is all that's standing in the way of a Chinese economic takeover.

trump has done nothing to slow China.

[tomazbodner]

47 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Let’s see whether Trump will put the money where his mouth is and see this through. Let him be remembered for losing US chip leadership position in the industry to South Korea. China will just buy more from Samsung if the ban is in place or Taiwan and domestically. China is the world’s chip import market. When US loses its leadership position, it will also lose the motivation to innovate and will force them to depend on foreign semiconductor suppliers. Trump is an idiot in foreign affairs. 

 

 

China also holds a vast majority of rare mineral fields that are needed in the high tech industry, including semiconductors. If China stops exporting to US (they call that "nuclear option") US semiconductor output would drop over 80%. US has been trying to source from other markets, but those are ever more reliant on, and turning to, China, which is using its huge dollar reserves to investment into those countries. It's actually a clever play. If you have trillions of dollars, you can't just dump them in the market - value would crash and you'd lose most. If you do it slowly, it takes long and value drops. But - if you use it to give "loans" to others, then ask for repay in something else, it's basically money laundry to get out of USD held debt. US has different ideas - trying to use sanctions and annoyance to wipe its debt to China. Some say COVID is part of the same plan - plant a virus, accuse of coverup, drag feet in implementing prevention to cause massive damage, sanction and demand compensation in the amount of debt held. This theory is from Hong Kong. Let's see if US does sanction China and demands it repays damage at around the amount of US debt...

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

China also holds a vast majority of rare mineral fields that are needed in the high tech industry, including semiconductors. If China stops exporting to US (they call that "nuclear option") US semiconductor output would drop over 80%. US has been trying to source from other markets, but those are ever more reliant on, and turning to, China, which is using its huge dollar reserves to investment into those countries. It's actually a clever play. If you have trillions of dollars, you can't just dump them in the market - value would crash and you'd lose most. If you do it slowly, it takes long and value drops. But - if you use it to give "loans" to others, then ask for repay in something else, it's basically money laundry to get out of USD held debt. US has different ideas - trying to use sanctions and annoyance to wipe its debt to China. Some say COVID is part of the same plan - plant a virus, accuse of coverup, drag feet in implementing prevention to cause massive damage, sanction and demand compensation in the amount of debt held. This theory is from Hong Kong. Let's see if US does sanction China and demands it repays damage at around the amount of US debt...

According to Bloomberg, "China Has a Rare Earths Plan Ready to Go if Trade War Deepens". China control 80% of global REE. 

[FritsSikkink]

7 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

"Do not trust China. China is <deleted>" 

 

MAGA 

They are not nonstop at war with other countries for over 200 years. 

[ukrules]

China have managed to do the rarest of things, they've enraged the entire world in the space of just a few months.

 

This is an amazing achievement which has never been accomplished in such a short period of time by any country before.

 

The backlash on this is going to be like nothing we've ever seen before.

Edited May 16, 2020 by ukrules

[Ventenio]

now THIS is what I like.......conspiracy.

 

Oh, let's keep the airports open to the Chinese....

Why?  There's a pandemic coming.

Yea, I know idiot.  But we need to get manufacturing out of china and back to America.  We'll blame the WHO and the Chinese, not us

But we could stop it.

Dude, after wuhanvirus, we can do whatever we want.

Will apple get out of china?

dude, of course

what's the bigger plan?

Chinese GDP negative for years....then we will take all their property in America or buy for super cheap.

ok

[Tropposurfer]

More than a billion people. Most of them very very smart. China will have its own independent chip industry within a year.
This will be nothing more than a blip on Chinas and Huawei’s century forward thinking business plans.

What a dumb spiteful twit Trump and the US govt are.
The rhetoric of China being ‘the enemy’ is predictable. To justify a war- based aggressive economy you always need to have enemies to rally against.

the internal rancour in the US needs to be focused on and dealt with rather than to make stupid fruitless economic decisions like the one being touted here.
I predict In Honda gut and when fact replaces propaganda the damaging impact on the US by Trumps administration will be seen in the light, as well as the pathetic reactions and machinations of the Democrats and not-Republican independents to his administration.

The Internal divisions in the US are deadly serious and far more threatening to democracy than China has ever been.

 

 

[candide]

3 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

According to Bloomberg, "China Has a Rare Earths Plan Ready to Go if Trade War Deepens". China control 80% of global REE. 

I just read the article, quite interesting. It's quite likely they have a plan ready. While Trump makes highly visible spontaneous decisions, the Chinese are planning.....

[3NUMBAS]

12 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

China has been stealing intellectual property and military secrets for decades...US is complicit in allowing China to run amok in order to get to their markets...

 

The cost is too high...China can not be trusted!

and running rampant in the south china sea for oil exploration on other nations propertys #

 

china needs to be marginalised

[ChouDoufu]

2 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

and running rampant in the south china sea for oil exploration on other nations propertys #

 

china needs to be marginalised

can't we give them syria's oil that we're safeguarding?

 

[Mama Noodle]

Just now, ChouDoufu said:

can't we give them syria's oil that we're safeguarding?

China does harassment all over the place. I have seen it with my own eyes in Vietnam and Malaysia. They spy on oilfield construction and harass shipping all the time. I was even on a project deep inside Malaysian waters where the Chinese Navy wouldn't stop circling the site causing safety concerns and were on bull horns telling us to leave, which the Malaysian officials actually made us do. They did the same in Vietnam but the Vietnamese have a set of nuts and didn't make us leave at all. 

 

They are a global, nefarious parasite.

[ChouDoufu]

2 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

China does harassment all over the place. I have seen it with my own eyes in Vietnam and Malaysia. They spy on oilfield construction and harass shipping all the time. I was even on a project deep inside Malaysian waters where the Chinese Navy wouldn't stop circling the site causing safety concerns and were on bull horns telling us to leave, which the Malaysian officials actually made us do. They did the same in Vietnam but the Vietnamese have a set of nuts and didn't make us leave at all. 

 

They are a global, nefarious parasite.

okay, so syria's oil is safe from the chinese?

[Heppinger]

2 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

More than a billion people. Most of them very very smart.

Yet can't seem to make baby formula.

[Heppinger]

2 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

 China will have its own independent chip industry within a year.

Wrong, development and coding will be handled by Israel, China may do some manufacturing.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Heppinger

[Mama Noodle]

11 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

okay, so syria's oil is safe from the chinese?

 

What does this have to do with anything..... 

[Heppinger]

2 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

The rhetoric of China being ‘the enemy’ is predictable. To justify a war- based aggressive economy you always need to have enemies to rally against.

This is true though rather for the purpose of advancing technology. There will be no war between America and China as America has the far superior tech.  America will lose it world power status from the inside out by economic means.

[ChouDoufu]

4 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

What does this have to do with anything..... 

everything and nothing?  what does the south china sea have to do with hauwei?  why are we complaining about the chinese doing things we do as well?

 

the problem we have with huawei is less about chinese spying, more about protecting our less-developed 5G market, and in my opinion our inability to hack their systems as well as we'd like to use for our own spying.

[Mama Noodle]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

everything and nothing?  what does the south china sea have to do with hauwei?  why are we complaining about the chinese doing things we do as well?

 

the problem we have with huawei is less about chinese spying, more about protecting our less-developed 5G market, and in my opinion our inability to hack their systems as well as we'd like to use for our own spying.

 

South China Sea is an example of known government spying and harassment by China (Spying being an aspect of the thread) 

 

The problem with Huawei is all about Chinese spying, it's literally what they do to everyone. Why be so dumb as a country to allow a known nefarious spy country like china to operate their systems and trash national security. 

 

I mean are you Chinese or something? I just can't understand how at every instance you defend china at all costs. 

[ChouDoufu]

8 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

US does have rare earth deposit. it’s not only mining but processing capabilities and costs. The only rare earth producer in US currently is Mountain Pass and they have to send to China for processing. Then the question of production capacity. The planned operation of Round Top will eventually produce 2,000 tons per year of rare earth magnets, only filling 17% of domestic demand,

it's not as much the cost, we've got tariffs to fix that.  it's more about environmental concerns.  acid baths and radiation treatments needed to separate the tiny fraction of rare earths from the mountain of dirt, resulting in massive amounts of toxic waste.  what to do when we can't ship the toxic slurry..........to china?

 

california won't like that and will certainly put up a fight.  expect a serious attempt to reopen the mine to high capacity to get stuck in the courts for years.  how long did it take to complete a simple pipeline - keystone phase 4?

[talahtnut]

Trump gets his inspiration with his head

down the toilet bowl..where it says 'made in China'.

Edited May 16, 2020 by talahtnut
addition

[Ireland32]

7 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

You have a good point there. However, love him or loathe him, Trump is all that's standing in the way of a Chinese economic takeover.

Correct

[Ireland32]

7 hours ago, tomazbodner said:

China also holds a vast majority of rare mineral fields that are needed in the high tech industry, including semiconductors. If China stops exporting to US (they call that "nuclear option") US semiconductor output would drop over 80%. US has been trying to source from other markets, but those are ever more reliant on, and turning to, China, which is using its huge dollar reserves to investment into those countries. It's actually a clever play. If you have trillions of dollars, you can't just dump them in the market - value would crash and you'd lose most. If you do it slowly, it takes long and value drops. But - if you use it to give "loans" to others, then ask for repay in something else, it's basically money laundry to get out of USD held debt. US has different ideas - trying to use sanctions and annoyance to wipe its debt to China. Some say COVID is part of the same plan - plant a virus, accuse of coverup, drag feet in implementing prevention to cause massive damage, sanction and demand compensation in the amount of debt held. This theory is from Hong Kong. Let's see if US does sanction China and demands it repays damage at around the amount of US debt...

I smell tin foil 

[Ireland32]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

US does have rare earth deposit. it’s not only mining but processing capabilities and costs. The only rare earth producer in US currently is Mountain Pass and they have to send to China for processing. Then the question of production capacity. The planned operation of Round Top will eventually produce 2,000 tons per year of rare earth magnets, only filling 17% of domestic demand,

All those old mines have value , how China walked into Afganistan??? To get that mine 

[DaRoadrunner]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

China have managed to do the rarest of things, they've enraged the entire world in the space of just a few months.

 

This is an amazing achievement which has never been accomplished in such a short period of time by any country before.

 

The backlash on this is going to be like nothing we've ever seen before.

The Thais are about ready to invite them back as tourists.

[tomazbodner]

19 minutes ago, Ireland32 said:

I smell tin foil 

Your nose is amazing.

[tomazbodner]

1 hour ago, Mama Noodle said:

China does harassment all over the place. I have seen it with my own eyes in Vietnam and Malaysia. They spy on oilfield construction and harass shipping all the time. I was even on a project deep inside Malaysian waters where the Chinese Navy wouldn't stop circling the site causing safety concerns and were on bull horns telling us to leave, which the Malaysian officials actually made us do. They did the same in Vietnam but the Vietnamese have a set of nuts and didn't make us leave at all. 

 

They are a global, nefarious parasite.

Unfortunately, most if not all global superpowers start acting that way when their influence increases. That's how the control the smaller nations. While Russia mostly faded away after dissolution of Soviet Union, Europe never became one, you now have a clash of 2 titans - USA and China. For now, it's economic (and possibly bioweapons) war. But if this doesn't get resolved, it may turn to a classic war.

 

It's not like we weren't there before. British and Chinese... Opium wars?

[Mama Noodle]

25 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Unfortunately, most if not all global superpowers start acting that way when their influence increases. That's how the control the smaller nations. While Russia mostly faded away after dissolution of Soviet Union, Europe never became one, you now have a clash of 2 titans - USA and China. For now, it's economic (and possibly bioweapons) war. But if this doesn't get resolved, it may turn to a classic war.

 

It's not like we weren't there before. British and Chinese... Opium wars?

The USA does not go around acting like China does, and when they do, they are usually invited by the host country or are operating in international waters. China doesn't give two flying turds where they are as long as they feel they can strong-arm and harass without pushback. 

[Selatan]

14 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

so it goes like this.....

 

intel and samsung and others can make chips, lots of chips, and sell to china.  china can use zillions of them in the huawei and oppo and xiaomi cellphones they make.  they can install them in their 5G base stations.  if the nsa likes their backdoors, they can keep their backdoors!  western tech firms make billions in profit, and the trade deficit is that much smaller.

 

winning!

 

or we can ban their sales to china.  china will find other vendors or begin to produce their own chips.  will they steal the technology?  why not, if we won't sell to them.  (and even if we do, right?)  so intel and samsung and others lose those sales.  the trade deficit is that much bigglyer. 

 

china can advertise "100% guaranteed nsa-backdoor-free" 5G tech, something ms. merkel would surely appreciate.  they'll still undercut western cellphone prices, will still retain market share, only now without western chips.  next we can ban use of android in their phones, and china will develop their own operating system and create their own "ecosystem" using their own talent and the unemployed HB-1 coders that trump wants to send back to india.  with the yuuuuuge market share huawei already has, google/android will lose out bigly.

 

winning?

 

i'll bet trump's next chess move will be banning sales of gmo soybeans to the chinese.

China have started producing their own chips. It has many new semiconductor projects running currently. Even during the lockdown at Wuhan, special exemption was given to HSR trains to stop at Wuhan to unload passengers that are involved in a semiconductor factory there. Work at this Wuhan factory continued throughout the lockdown period. This Wuhan factory is making advanced flash memory chips to compete with Samsung.

Huawei's chip division, Hisilicon, have ordered their mid-range Kirin chips to be made at SMIC (local Chinese foundry) a few months ago. Potentially, only high end Kirin chips might be affected if semiconductor foundries outside mainland China refused to make chips for Huawei anymore. The chips used in 5G Huawei equipment are not high-end ones. Only high-end chips are used in their top of the line smartphones. SMIC was supposed to make the higher end chips too but Trump had managed to convince the Dutch government to ban the export of high-end chipmaking equipment to China. I wouldn't be surprised if China decides to go into making their own chipmaking equipment as well. And this determination to become self-reliant means bad news for semiconductor and chipmaking equipment manufacturers outside China because China is a huge chip importer. 
 

[tpazzi]

6 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

The USA does not go around acting like China does, and when they do, they are usually invited by the host country or are operating in international waters. 

Boy, did you nail it perfectly.  The US and China do take completely different approaches to their foreign policy towards the other.

 

For example, China never attempted to interfere in the US Civil War.  The US, on the other hand, both funded and armed the Kuomintang (i.e. the side which fled to Fomosa in the still technically unresolved Chinese Civil War.)

 

To the best of my knowledge, China has never sent its military forces into any of the countries neighboring the US.  The US, in contrast, has engaged in extended military campaigns in at least five countries neighboring China. All of these have been within the past 75 years.

 

While coming late to the Spheres of Influence party, just 100 years ago, the US Navy still managed to stake a claim and patrol upriver regions of the Yangtze River, engaging in gunboat diplomacy to negotiate favorable business terms for the America trading interests.  To the best of my knowledge, the Chinese Navy has never navigated on the Mississippi, or any of the other major American rivers.

 

Those are vastly different approaches, so yes, you are correct; they act very differently.

 

None of this excuses China from it's obligations to behave responsibly in regards to its international engagements. But awareness of the US's history on the subject should demand a serious examination of any claims of malfeasance by the Chinese and such claims should be backed up with examinable evidence, not simply convenient election year rehtoric. Thus far, the American conversation on the topic of China seems to be rooted in a great deal of the rehtoric, and less of the factual evidence.