Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[Bender Rodriguez]

8 minutes ago, chessman said:

How do you think they calculate those numbers of flu deaths?
 

will you be OK when the same researchers use the same methodology to calculate Covid deaths and the numbers increase by 200+ %?

you can look it up on cdc and other websites

 

you were scared with 2.000.000 deaths in USA, not even 100.000 now

[Bender Rodriguez]

5 hours ago, BeltAndRoad said:

If only the WHO could advice Sweden on how to curb their out of control rape statistics.

you know there is a big problem with a certain imported population with a total opposite culture that is causing the spike in crime numbers, but hey, leftism socialism + censorship

[chessman]

22 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

you can look it up on cdc and other websites

I’m not disbelieving the statistics. I’m asking you if you know how they are calculated?

[yuyiinthesky]

Just now, chessman said:

I’m not disbelieving the statistics. I’m asking you if you know how they are calculated?

The real question is not if there are 600.000 FLU deaths per year, or 599999, or 600.001, but why there is a lockdown for X Covid-19 deaths, but there was and is not much attention for Y Flu etc death, despite Y being the higher number.

[chessman]

3 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

The real question is not if there are 600.000 FLU deaths per year, or 599999, or 600.001, but why there is a lockdown for X Covid-19 deaths, but there was and is not much attention for Y Flu etc death, despite Y being the higher number.

So I ask you the same question, how are those numbers calculated? 

 

I thought it was well known, but perhaps not.
 

 

[yuyiinthesky]

BTW, kudos to the OP for this thread, it seems to be the most alive and resilient one on TVF! Apparently quite many love Sweden and wish it all the best and to get over this virus quickly.

[yuyiinthesky]

4 minutes ago, chessman said:

So I ask you the same question, how are those numbers calculated? 

 

I thought it was well known, but perhaps not.

I think it has to do with this, applies it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

[chessman]

1 minute ago, yuyiinthesky said:

I think it has to do with this, applies it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

Ah, so you don’t understand it. 
 

good you are honest about it

[scubascuba3]

Interesting "BBC Hardtalk" video on YouTube with the man behind the Swedish approach "Anders Tegnell". Worth a look. I haven't bothered adding link here in case it gets deleted

[yuyiinthesky]

1 minute ago, chessman said:

Ah, so you don’t understand it. 

That's an unfounded imputation

 

1 minute ago, chessman said:

good you are honest about it

And then obviously that too ????

[chessman]

2 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

That's an unfounded imputation

It explains a lot though. ????

 

it’s a simple question, either you don’t know the answer or you do and you understand that answering it truthfully takes your ‘position’ down uncomfortable paths...

[talahtnut]

The data becomes clearer from doctors

on the front line.

https://lbry.tv/@Marine1063:0/REAL-DOCTORS-COVID-DATA:0

[farang51]

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

You are comparing a low death rate thanks to lockdown as a reason not to have lockdown? That's some mental gymnastics right there.

Even at a VERY conservative 1% death rate, if 1 billion people were infected that would result in 1,000,000 deaths. 2 billion infected 2,000,000 etc. etc.

Currently the death toll is in the region of 340,000 thanks mainly to self-isolation.

Actually, it is much worse; 1 per cent of 1 billion is 10 million. Not that I think it will make any difference for some in here; they seem to value their freedom to get infected and to infect others more than the value of lives lost.

 

We still do not know the ifr (infected fatality rate) for the virus. Some experts started believing it was around 1 per cent which is around ten times the death rate for the flu. Then some began to believe the ifr rate could be as "low" as .1 or .4 per cent. However, if preliminary numbers from Denmark is correct, the ifr is above 1 per cent. I believe the numbers from Sweden also indicate an ifr above 1 per cent.

 

It should be noted that in both Denmark and Sweden, the hospitals have been able to handle the pressure from COVID-19 patients. When that is not the case, the ifr can be much higher.

[yuyiinthesky]

18 minutes ago, chessman said:

It explains a lot though. ????

 

it’s a simple question, either you don’t know the answer or you do and you understand that answering it truthfully takes your ‘position’ down uncomfortable paths...

And I already answered, that the exact number does not matter.

I don't know what you impute as my position, so I try to clarify:
Why is a Covid-19 death to be avoided by all means, even disastrous lockdowns, while a Flu death seems to be no problem, and that despite the Flu death number being higher.

My position is that the humans dying from Flu (etc, also TB, cancer, Malaria) are also humans, their live should not have less value. 

Nevertheless, feel free to recalculate and correct the numbers, and update the CDC stats.

Edited May 23, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[farang51]

7 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Why is a Covid-19 death to be avoided by all means, even disastrous lockdowns, while a Flu death seems to be no problem, and that despite the Flu death number being higher.

Yes, certainly it cannot be that the restrictions had any influence on the deaths from COVID-19. The restrictions are only for show; the governments of all countries decided to grab the chance to ruin their economies just to be able to insert tracking chips in the population. And it was the last call, too. Some of the people were beginning to figure out the real reason to introduce G5 masts.

[chessman]

9 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

And I already answered, that the exact number does not matter.

I don't know what you impute as my position, so I try to clarify:
Why is a Covid-19 death to be avoided by all means, even disastrous lockdowns, while a Flu death seems to be no problem, and that despite the Flu death number being higher.

My position is that the humans dying from Flu (etc, also TB, cancer, Malaria) are also humans, their live should not have less value. 

Nevertheless, feel free to recalculate and correct the numbers, and update the CDC stats.

I’m not recalculating any numbers. I’m not saying the exact numbers matter. I’m asking a very simple question about how the numbers are calculated, a question that you are dodging. 
 

Try and answer it, go on... let curiosity get the better of your fixed ideological position. As William Blake said ‘the road to wisdom is crooked’.

[Sheryl]

Posts with embedded video from no  authoritative source have been removed

[Peter Denis]

47 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Interesting "BBC Hardtalk" video on YouTube with the man behind the Swedish approach "Anders Tegnell". Worth a look. I haven't bothered adding link here in case it gets deleted

Thanks for the tip.

Also no link needed, because simply googling "BBC Hardtalk Anders Tegnell" will lead you to it.

[chessman]

1 minute ago, farang51 said:

The restrictions are only for show; the governments of all countries decided to grab the chance to ruin their economies

Good point. It is a well known fact that governments always win re-election when their economy is doing badly. 

I don’t know why more governments don’t do this in election years... all you have to do is sink your economy and you’d be guaranteed to win.

This proves they had the motive and we all know they had the means. 

 

or perhaps there is a flaw in my logic?
 

 

[MikeyIdea]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You apparently come from a point of view that the majority must be sacrificed to save the elderly and infirm for a few more years. Significantly, the younger demographic that will suffer because of that policy were not asked if they agreed to suffer.

I'm elderly and infirm, and no one asked me if I wanted to be saved at the expense of younger generations. I don't.

Sweden lives in a world together with other countries, not on a planet by its own. There are lots of bankruptcies in Sweden too.

 

Herz isn't the only car rental company that has gone bankrupt. Swedish car rental companies also go bankrupt, taxi companies, hotels, transportation companies, restaurants, pubs and shops go bankrupt here too. Big companies like Volvo and Scania had to close their factories because of the worldwide supply chain disruptions and that made their local Swedish suppliers bleed. Scandinavian airlines have forloughed most of their employees. 

 

Sweden has always had pretty high unemployment numbers but they are "picked up", shuffled around, the same happens now. Lots of people are forloughed, a lot of people have lost their jobs, they don't suffer as in other countries because tax money pays them. It's a system that makes refuges fleeing civil war travel from the south of Italy, through Austria, Germany and Denmark because they absolutely want to come to  Sweden. 

 

Being more open hurts the economy less of course but the difference is actually not as big as you'd think. And then comes the time perspective. 

 

Norway, Finland and Denmark have already said that they will not open their borders to Sweden when they open to other countries in the EU. The Swedish government's response was a bit quiet, we hope they won't descriminate... But its not a question of that, its just common sense. It's about risk, nothing else. 

 

Look at the infected and deaths per population graphs for Europe, other countries (except the UK) go down pretty steeply and are looking quite good, Sweden only has a very slight decline.

 

Swedish health authorities are now saying that only a disappointing 7.3% of the population have antibodies and herd immunity is not realistic. They have always downplayed asymptomatic transmission as miniscule but CDC now estimate that it accounts for approx. 35% of all cases. That makes the "stay at home if you are sick" advice laughable. It should be stay at home a couple of days before you get symptoms too... 

 

Sweden will hurt longer than other countries in Europe (except the UK) for sure. 

 

Future will tell if Sweden at the end of the day will win anything at all economically, or if it just was deaths for nothing. We'll see in October. 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by MikeyIdea

[balo]

6 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

My sister-in-law transferred to Oslo at the beginning of this mess. No one wears a mask. She can't because, being Asian, she already has trouble fitting in.

We don't wear masks in Norway, but we keep social distancing. And we have one of the lowest numbers of deaths in Europe.  Just shows you there's not much help in a mask alone. 
Everyone have to wear a mask in Belgium, and look at the numbers there....
 

[GalaxyMan]

7 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

Well, anyone who thinks that Sweden is being smart, isn't. ???? Easy enough to compare to the neighbors, who used their heads instead of sticking them where the sun don't shine like the Swedes, among others. ????

 

As of today:

 

Sweden: 32,809 cases; 3,925 deaths; 389 Deaths Per Million (Top 10)
Finland: 6,537; 306; 55
Norway: 8,332; 235; 43

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Not that it matters, over 24,000 new cases in the US today, and the total dead is now at 96,007, but Trump says he doing the greatest job any president has ever done, just ask him. ????

[Bender Rodriguez]

at the end, we will see, how many deaths per million

 

and which countries killed their economy at what price

 

sick, old and immune compromised people should be protected, quarantined

 

I would love to see the vitamin D levels of the people that died....

 

Pretty sure it is 12 and level = severe deficient

 

sick & old people are indoors, hospital stays & food is HORRIBLE, old people home's food is horrible, bread and soup for the toothless...

 

in Thailand I got served rice soup with MSG for taste in a hospital !

 

[scubascuba3]

31 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

 

Swedish health authorities are now saying that only a disappointing 7.3% of the population have antibodies and herd immunity is not realistic. 

 

 

 

 

According to the video i quoted above they are doing a study now using a sample to estimate those you have had Corona, results in a week.  Even Germany had 15% in their trial. Anders Trednell estimated it could be as high as 30-40%

[scubascuba3]

4 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

at the end, we will see, how many deaths per million

 

 

 

You highlight the problem, it only takes account of one side of the argument. It needs to take account of deaths caused by lockdowns, i.e. not getting treated for cancer, heart problem, stroke.  Apparently Sweden is continuing to treat these people

[farang51]

18 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

According to the video i quoted above they are doing a study now using a sample to estimate those you have had Corona, results in a week.  Even Germany had 15% in their trial. Anders Trednell estimated it could be as high as 30-40%

Do you have a link to the numbers from Germany? In Denmark, they have tested more than 1.000 people for antibodies; they found only 1 per cent with antibodies. The tests do not cover all the country and the people tested were not randomly chosen; but still, the number is much lower than anticipated. They are testing more people at the moment, and they should have better numbers next week and even better numbers in the coming weeks.

 

If the 1 per cent with antibodies turns out to be correct; the ifr (infection fatality rate) is around 1 per cent due to 561 deaths in a population of 5,8 million.

[MikeyIdea]

32 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

You highlight the problem, it only takes account of one side of the argument. It needs to take account of deaths caused by lockdowns, i.e. not getting treated for cancer, heart problem, stroke.  Apparently Sweden is continuing to treat these people

No, that is wrong. I don't know where you got that from. Swedish health authorities have openly said all the time from the beginning that they postpone everything that is not of life threatening nature. 

 

Sweden is not treating those people. 

 

It's in the today's newspaper even, a daughter of an elderly blamed the health authorities for that her father died because they postponed his operation. 

[MikeyIdea]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

According to the video i quoted above they are doing a study now using a sample to estimate those you have had Corona, results in a week.  Even Germany had 15% in their trial. Anders Trednell estimated it could be as high as 30-40%

Anders Tegnell, note the spelling, held a press conference on Swedish TV yesterday where he reported the latest numbers, 7.3%.

 

They were "a bit disappointing but not too far off the model predictions, 1 to 2 percent". 

 

I like Anders, he's a really nice guy, I feel sorry for him.

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by MikeyIdea

[yuyiinthesky]

1 hour ago, farang51 said:

Yes, certainly it cannot be that the restrictions had any influence on the deaths from COVID-19. The restrictions are only for show; the governments of all countries decided to grab the chance to ruin their economies just to be able to insert tracking chips in the population. And it was the last call, too. Some of the people were beginning to figure out the real reason to introduce G5 masts.

Now I understand you!

Nevertheless, your statement has absolutely nothing to do with my post. I assume you replied to someone else, and the page jumping caused by the pop up ads moved the page when you clicked.

[yuyiinthesky]

1 hour ago, chessman said:

I’m not recalculating any numbers. I’m not saying the exact numbers matter. I’m asking a very simple question about how the numbers are calculated, a question that you are dodging. 
 

Try and answer it, go on...

 

Sorry, not interested. I understand that you seem to have some conspiracy theories about fake flu death numbers. I don't. Therefore I leave that exercise for you.