Fermented fish: Don't eat it raw as it is full of dangerous tapeworms

[Kerryd]

5 hours ago, whaleboneman said:

Why don't you clean and freeze on the day you get them? I don't like the idea of thawing and refreezing food.

As they are still alive when I bring them home I prefer to stick them in the freezer first. That way they don't squiggle as much when you tear them in half.

I agree with the freezing/thawing/refreezing. Not usually a good idea. However in my case,  they are usually cleaned, rinsed and back in the freezer in about 30 minutes from the time I take them out. Quite often some of them are still mostly frozen.
I find it easier to separate the tails from the torsos and then the shell from the tail when they are still nearly frozen. Having them under the tap water lets the shells unfreeze while the meat is still (mostly) frozen and that seems to help pull them apart easier (fewer broken tails). I also find I rarely have to "de-vein" any of them.

I've bought the "fresh but already dead" shrimp before and didn't freeze them when I got home but when I've gone to prepare them, I found a lot of them had been dead for quite awhile. Very soft and squishy and smelly, like they'd been dead for days. Straight into the garbage (won't even give them to the neighbour for "her cats" just in case). The "fresh but dead" shrimp may be cheaper, but when you buy 20 and have to throw 4-5 away, suddenly they aren't any cheaper than buying them live.

And now that I know they can carry the Fluke parasite as well I think I'll stick with what I'm doing. I'm not a fan of trying to eat anything that may be "off" and even if it is just starting to smell a bit odd I will usually turf it rather than risk it. Mostly applies to pork though if I thaw some shrimp and it smells "off" I'll bin them as well. (Happened once and it was actually with some of the "fresh but dead" shrimp I'd bought. Brought them home, threw out the skanky ones, prepped the remainder and then froze them. Took some out a couple weeks later, thawed them and even when still cold they were smelling "off".  When I was ready to start cooking them the smell was strong enough that I didn't even bother, I just chucked them into the garbage.)

Cheaper to buy fresh stuff then end up in an ICU having my stomach pumped.
 

[IvorBiggun2]

38 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Cheaper to buy fresh stuff then end up in an ICU having my stomach pumped.

Even the so called 'fresh stuff' is contaminated with the fluke. Not just the fermented stuff. It's spread by animals defecating in open water.

 

 

[RocketDog]

15 hours ago, Jack P said:

But we are “omnivores”...

That's a choice and not a condition. 

What we put in our mouths is a decision of the brain and the hands. 

That said, impoverished people are often forced to make one of several  bad choices. 

[superal]

20 hours ago, Docno said:

Schoolmate of my ex died of that about three years back. Would have been about 33 years old. Liver ducts get blocked. I didn't see him myself, but my then gf said he turned very yellow and lost a great deal of weight. Minimal medical intervention and he died at home. Apparently a great lover of pla ra/la … pretty sure that's what did him in.

Exactly the same for my F.I.L

[checkered flag]

As usual this is a Web Facts article. Fish tape worms in Pla-ra is not the problem. Liver flukes would be much more common in Pla-ra and/or raw prepared fish. In the North Pla-la is commonly cooked before use. You've probably had some but didn't know it, unless you are one of the farong that only eat western food.  Thais generally thing western food is garbage, so to each their own. 

Thais also think Westerns stink from eating to much meat, but it could also be a bathing problem.

[checkered flag]

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Even the so called 'fresh stuff' is contaminated with the fluke. Not just the fermented stuff. It's spread by animals defecating in open water.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Even the so called 'fresh stuff' is contaminated with the fluke. Not just the fermented stuff. It's spread by animals defecating in open water.

 

 

 

Wrong liver fluke. This is fasciola hepatica. In Pla-ra it's Opisthorchis viverrini . The second intermediate stage is in fresh water fish.

Edited May 26, 2020 by checkered flag

[checkered flag]

13 minutes ago, superal said:

Exactly the same for my F.I.L

In severe cases bile duct obstruction can be a problem. This leads to jaundice elc. It has also been implicated in liver cancer. Its really had to separate heavy drinking and eating infected fish as the cause, because they often go together.

[Caine]

On 5/25/2020 at 5:32 AM, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems lots of Thais can handle lots of food which lots of westerners can't.

Maybe their immune system is, in general, better than ours. Most Thais are used to that kind of food from childhood onwards.

Yes but they can’t hack a good old pickled onion ????????????????????????????????????????

[samtab]

Thai do not know and don't want to know.

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1061526-som-tam-pla-ra-liver-fluke-danger/

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by samtab

[Airbagwill]

7 hours ago, RocketDog said:

That's a choice and not a condition. 

What we put in our mouths is a decision of the brain and the hands. 

That said, impoverished people are often forced to make one of several  bad choices. 

Our bodies are evolved and designed to be omnivores - vegetarianism etc is a choice you can make, but you need to realise that the human digestive system is not adapted to cope with a totally vegetarian diet. (just look at the size of the gut on vegetarian primates) Your Brian can override your evolved situation but it cannot change the "Machine"

Edited May 26, 2020 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

9 hours ago, Kerryd said:

As they are still alive when I bring them home I prefer to stick them in the freezer first. That way they don't squiggle as much when you tear them in half.

I agree with the freezing/thawing/refreezing. Not usually a good idea. However in my case,  they are usually cleaned, rinsed and back in the freezer in about 30 minutes from the time I take them out. Quite often some of them are still mostly frozen.
I find it easier to separate the tails from the torsos and then the shell from the tail when they are still nearly frozen. Having them under the tap water lets the shells unfreeze while the meat is still (mostly) frozen and that seems to help pull them apart easier (fewer broken tails). I also find I rarely have to "de-vein" any of them.

I've bought the "fresh but already dead" shrimp before and didn't freeze them when I got home but when I've gone to prepare them, I found a lot of them had been dead for quite awhile. Very soft and squishy and smelly, like they'd been dead for days. Straight into the garbage (won't even give them to the neighbour for "her cats" just in case). The "fresh but dead" shrimp may be cheaper, but when you buy 20 and have to throw 4-5 away, suddenly they aren't any cheaper than buying them live.

And now that I know they can carry the Fluke parasite as well I think I'll stick with what I'm doing. I'm not a fan of trying to eat anything that may be "off" and even if it is just starting to smell a bit odd I will usually turf it rather than risk it. Mostly applies to pork though if I thaw some shrimp and it smells "off" I'll bin them as well. (Happened once and it was actually with some of the "fresh but dead" shrimp I'd bought. Brought them home, threw out the skanky ones, prepped the remainder and then froze them. Took some out a couple weeks later, thawed them and even when still cold they were smelling "off".  When I was ready to start cooking them the smell was strong enough that I didn't even bother, I just chucked them into the garbage.)

Cheaper to buy fresh stuff then end up in an ICU having my stomach pumped.
 

liver fluke has nothing to do with food being off - it is transmitted in improperly cooked or uncooked food.

[Bigz]

 

18 hours ago, SiSePuede419 said:

I'm told on TVF that lots of relationships with ex-bargirls work out quite nicely.

 

I say, mentally they're damaged goods.  Permanently. ????

Bar girls are not for me for the long haul but you sound like you had plenty of experience with that. 

[Airbagwill]

19 hours ago, SiSePuede419 said:

I'm told on TVF that lots of relationships with ex-bargirls work out quite nicely.

 

I say, mentally they're damaged goods.  Permanently. ????

That comment reveals more about you than any "bar-girl".

[Kerryd]

15 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

liver fluke has nothing to do with food being off - it is transmitted in improperly cooked or uncooked food.

I never said it did. I said if it smells "off" I usually turf it. And that was before I even knew that shrimp could also carry the fluke.

[checkered flag]

A lot of western foods are offensive to Thais as well. I remember years ago I was eating spaghetti with parmesan cheese and my brother in law thought the cat had pooped in the house. He was looking around to clean it up. 

[Grumpy01]

Cheese from Sardinia is maggot cheese with live maggots what's worse? 

[Grumpy01]

On 5/25/2020 at 4:56 PM, Bob A Kneale said:

How?

Maggot cheese from Italy

[RocketDog]

14 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Our bodies are evolved and designed to be omnivores - vegetarianism etc is a choice you can make, but you need to realise that the human digestive system is not adapted to cope with a totally vegetarian diet. (just look at the size of the gut on vegetarian primates) Your Brian can override your evolved situation but it cannot change the "Machine"

I take your point but wish to extend the discussion. 

 

One of the most startling theories recently postulated is the concept of epigenetics. In essence it states that individuals can literally change their own DNA, for better or worse, by their lifestyle choices, including diet. Research microbiome as an example. Information is new every day regarding how our diet affects our gut flora, which in turn affects our entire organism, again for better or worse.

 

On the topic of vegetarianism, which I did not mention in my post, all but the most stubborn or uninformed people now reject the idea that a meat-heavy diet is ideal. Our relatively huge brains require a constant supply of protein, but not necessarily from flesh. It is true that vegans, who consume no animal products including honey must pay social attention to meeting their protein requirements, but it is entirely possible, if not convenient, to do so. 

 

Also, omnivore is not carnivore. Our evolution indeed provides for choices with certain limits. You use the term "adapted" which implies that change is constant, no adaptation is forever. The key to a species reproductive success depends entirely on adaptation to changing environment, not strength, speed, or intellect. 

Man has been brilliantly successful because we have adapted to changes in climate and food sources, by choice or not. 

 

The concept of our organism and our brain as a "machine" is outdated along with the concept of mechanical predestination it implies. Newtonian physics has been relegated to a subset of an explanation of reality by quantum science. Recent work suggests that our brains are in fact quantum devices as well. Literally nothing is for sure. 

 

The last time I checked Orangutans didn't have big guts, but if they do they are still capable of dismembering a human in seconds. Note that many omnivorous humans also have prodigious guts, but lack the survival ability to run ten feet. 

[Airbagwill]

6 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I take your point but wish to extend the discussion. 

 

One of the most startling theories recently postulated is the concept of epigenetics. In essence it states that individuals can literally change their own DNA, for better or worse, by their lifestyle choices, including diet. Research microbiome as an example. Information is new every day regarding how our diet affects our gut flora, which in turn affects our entire organism, again for better or worse.

 

On the topic of vegetarianism, which I did not mention in my post, all but the most stubborn or uninformed people now reject the idea that a meat-heavy diet is ideal. Our relatively huge brains require a constant supply of protein, but not necessarily from flesh. It is true that vegans, who consume no animal products including honey must pay social attention to meeting their protein requirements, but it is entirely possible, if not convenient, to do so. 

 

Also, omnivore is not carnivore. Our evolution indeed provides for choices with certain limits. You use the term "adapted" which implies that change is constant, no adaptation is forever. The key to a species reproductive success depends entirely on adaptation to changing environment, not strength, speed, or intellect. 

Man has been brilliantly successful because we have adapted to changes in climate and food sources, by choice or not. 

 

The concept of our organism and our brain as a "machine" is outdated along with the concept of mechanical predestination it implies. Newtonian physics has been relegated to a subset of an explanation of reality by quantum science. Recent work suggests that our brains are in fact quantum devices as well. Literally nothing is for sure. 

 

The last time I checked Orangutans didn't have big guts, but if they do they are still capable of dismembering a human in seconds. Note that many omnivorous humans also have prodigious guts, but lack the survival ability to run ten feet. 

Check again, they do.

 

No matter how much you try you winter change the length of your gut 

 ..and you need to inform yourself about proteins and then how we use them.

As for "machine*m" , that's why I used I vetted commas.

The rest of your post is irrelevant hogwash. 

[Bob A Kneale]

18 hours ago, Grumpy01 said:

On 5/25/2020 at 1:56 PM, Bob A Kneale said:

How?

Maggot cheese from Italy

What?  How are the two comparable when that cheese is illegal and unavailable, fermented fish isn't.

[RocketDog]

2 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Check again, they do.

 

No matter how much you try you winter change the length of your gut 

 ..and you need to inform yourself about proteins and then how we use them.

As for "machine*m" , that's why I used I vetted commas.

The rest of your post is irrelevant hogwash. 

Brilliant repost and extra points for coherence. 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, Bob A Kneale said:

What?  How are the two comparable when that cheese is illegal and unavailable, fermented fish isn't.

In many ways it is vey comparable - it is still made as a cottage industry and eaten quite a lot - it has an EU local heritage status but is also too "dangerous" to trade.

 

Much of the place-ra is locally or home made and in conditions that even under Thai laws would be illegal.

both are very ingrained in their respective local cultures.

 

Fermented fish is no new thing to Europe either, it was around in Greco-Roman times and is still vey popular in Scandinavia.

In Iceland they have a habit of burying sharks in the sand for 3 months then digging them up chopping into chunks and then eating them.

 

It is not the food itself that is intrinsically so awful, it is the unregulated way it is produced..... but that is the case for so many things in Thailand

[Elkski]

can you get these worms from swimming in these waters?  which can involve some ingestion of water. 

[SantiSuk]

I posted this in 2012 in a similar thread that has been long archived

"Cancer of the bile duct, which then spreads to the liver is caused by eating raw fish that is infected with specific liver flukes. Raw fish is present in palaar, used in somtam palaar and some other naam prik's and in some laarp plaa dishes. The infection is endemic in Issaan. Everyone living in Issaan should read it up and take avoiding action:

http://en.wikipedia....Opisthorchiasis

http://www.thaivisa....le-duct-cancer/

I suffered - it was not pleasant but hopefully it was treated quickly enough for me not to get cancer in a few years time.

Edited April 1, 2012 by SantiSuk

[Foexie]

"loved especially by north easterners" : what a BS. They eat it all over Thailand. Even Vietnam and probably more anywhere in Asia.

 

Even i only eat poo pla rah.

 

And i not doubt this study is true i think it is almost impossible to get infected. They use so much chillies in the somtam no way these worms can survive.

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, Foexie said:

"loved especially by north easterners" : what a BS. They eat it all over Thailand. Even Vietnam and probably more anywhere in Asia.

 

Even i only eat poo pla rah.

 

And i not doubt this study is true i think it is almost impossible to get infected. They use so much chillies in the somtam no way these worms can survive.

your premise is complete nonsense. 

[IvorBiggun2]

7 hours ago, Foexie said:

"loved especially by north easterners" : what a BS.

6 million people infected by the liver fluke in Isaan. Kinda lets you know where the dish is most popular. No denying it's eaten all over Thailand but that's only cuz people move around taking their favourite dishes with them. Even Sweden has a version of it. Enjoy the video below. Really funny.

 

7 hours ago, Foexie said:

"loved especially by north easterners" : what a BS. They eat it all over Thailand. Even Vietnam and probably more anywhere in Asia.

 

Even i only eat poo pla rah.

 

i think it is almost impossible to get infected. They use so much chillies in the somtam no way these worms can survive.

The only thing that kills this parasite for certainty is by freezing it for at least 24 hours.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by IvorBiggun2

[checkered flag]

We are talking about liver fluke infections. All fluke require a specific snail intermediate host as part of their life cycle. This is a limiting factor in fluke infections. 

[SantiSuk]

14 hours ago, Foexie said:

"loved especially by north easterners" : what a BS. They eat it all over Thailand. Even Vietnam and probably more anywhere in Asia.

 

Even i only eat poo pla rah.

 

And i not doubt this study is true i think it is almost impossible to get infected. They use so much chillies in the somtam no way these worms can survive.

You posted that right under my post which would have told you that I got infected. It was unpleasant - flash fevers coming and going, stomach distended and general malaise. Misdiagnosed in Pattaya, Bangkok and Dorset UK (I was on my travels and returning for a motherland visit - they mostly concluded gastroenteritis without doing any stool analysis). Eventually my Leeds GP heard my story and phoned his mate, the infectious disease specialist in St James Hospital Leeds. I was immediately hospitalised and for two days he ran all the tests and it defeated him. So he sent the test results to The London Hospital for Tropical Diseases and the head of that unit (a world-renowned luminary on tropical medecine) phoned him up and said "where did you say this patient lives in Thailand". I relayed it was the North-East of Thailand known as Isaan and he apparently said - "Ah - I think I know what that's going to be, let me take another look at the stool slides.

 

The treatment, Praziquantel, worked very quickly once it arrived from Switzerland (none in the UK). My local Isaan doctor, when I recounted this whole story to him some months later said "If you'd walked into my clinic with those symptoms I would have gone straight to Opisthociarsis as the 75% most likely diagnosis had you confirmed you were a somtam or Laarb Plaa eater.

 

I know your throw-away last line was probably in jest but just in case you or others think it's an urban myth ....????

Edited June 1, 2020 by SantiSuk

[SantiSuk]

6 hours ago, checkered flag said:

We are talking about liver fluke infections. All fluke require a specific snail intermediate host as part of their life cycle. This is a limiting factor in fluke infections. 

Actually we should be talking about a bile duct infection, not a liver infection. If not treated relatively quickly it can die away as an infection and possibly return some years later and spread from the bile duct to the liver as cancer.

 

My understanding having had it and obviously read a lot at the time - happy to hear medical opinion or authoritative evidence to dispute that.