Americans won't be in any travel bubble agreements anytime soon!

[checkered flag]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

Yet so many are willing even eager to rush out and risk it all, their money and their life, to do fun non-essential stuff in the middle of a pandemic.

 

 

 

 

Are you referring to the rioting and looting, or going to the beach? 

[Henryford]

On 6/20/2020 at 3:16 AM, sirineou said:

I am in Florida, what are my chances  

 

Plan B is to get a European passport. I am working on it. 

Get a Belgian passport, they are doing well.

[checkered flag]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 Here is an interesting cultural (and also current political) theory for why the USA has done so exceptionally badly. For discussion purposes. A key concept here is that the U.S. response has been limited by an extreme culture of individualism ("freedom" -- Goddam it!) while the nature of pandemic is the need for a collective response. Of course there is not just one reason this happened. I see it as kind of a perfect storm.

 

Also mentioned here which I think is very relevant is the nature of the American health care system where if you get very sick and are lucky enough not to die, there is still a quite good chance you will be financially ruined. Medical bills is main cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. the last time I checked. That's something that most "advanced" western countries don't share. Again, an "exceptional" American aspect of pain with this.

 

Yet so many are willing even eager to rush out and risk it all, their money and their life, to do fun non-essential stuff in the middle of a pandemic.

 

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/06/americas-pandemic-not-over-yet.html

 

Rubbish. Responsible Americans have health insurance often through their jobs, Those that don't (like in Thailand) are taking a risk but do so freely. Those who have no resources are cared for by the states. 

Go to Canada or UK and see the wait times (if ever) for getting care. 

I worked in health care in the US for 40 years and know what really goes on.

[cmarshall]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

Get a Belgian passport, they are doing well.

You're joking, right?  Belgium has the worst deaths per million count of any country in the world at 851.51.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You're joking, right?  Belgium has the worst deaths per million count of any country in the world at 851.51.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

I think you're missing the point of this topic. It's not about the history. It's about the current rates of infection and trends for new infections. That's what matters to travel policies. I just looked this up. 

Belgium is looking very good that way and is definitely bubble worthy. But that brings out an interesting issue. The EU appears to be making these travel policies as a block but surely not all countries in the EU have the same infection level rates. 

[cmarshall]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think you're missing the point of this topic. It's not about the history. It's about the current rates of infection and trends for new infections. That's what matters to travel policies. I just looked this up. 

Belgium is looking very good that way and is definitely bubble worthy. But that brings out an interesting issue. The EU appears to be making these travel policies as a block but surely not all countries in the EU have the same infection level rates. 

Fine, as long as there is not a second wave in Belgium in which case the government's demonstrated worst-of-the-world ability to contain it is likely again to make Belgium a very dangerous place to be.  Myself, I'll stick with a country with a proven track record of containment, such as Thailand, for example, just in case.

Edited June 28, 2020 by cmarshall

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Fine, as long as there is not a second wave in Belgium in which case the government's demonstrated worst-of-the-world ability to contain is likely again to make Belgium a very dangerous place to be.  Myself, I'll stick with a country with a proven track record of containment, such as Thailand, for example, just in case.

Yes Thailand is doing well and many us including me feel lucky to be here rather than the US during these times.

 

Of course Thailand will be under threat again when they inevitably open up tourism. 

 

You're also right that conditions change over time. They can get better. They can get worse. 

 

New York is a great example of that. 

 

Not so long ago it was the global epicenter of the pandemic. 

 

Now they are forcing quarantines on visitors from other US states! 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

An admittedly extreme example of the cultural issues that the USA has in trying to get mass compliance with public health measures. 

 

He doesn't want to wear a mask. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Jingthing

[Henryford]

47 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

You're joking, right?  Belgium has the worst deaths per million count of any country in the world at 851.51.

 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

Yes of course it was a joke. Just to highlight that the USA is not the worst by any means.

[cmarshall]

13 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Yes of course it was a joke. Just to highlight that the USA is not the worst by any means.

Because there is such a substantial difference between being the worst and the seventh worst out of 145 countries?  So to help you with your innumeracy problem, if you are in Belgium you would have been be a little more than twice as likely to die of Covid than in the US, but in the US you would be 300 times more likely to die of Covid than in Thailand.

[cmarshall]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes Thailand is doing well and many us including me feel lucky to be here rather than the US during these times.

 

Of course Thailand will be under threat again when they inevitably open up tourism. 

 

You're also right that conditions change over time. They can get better. They can get worse. 

 

New York is a great example of that. 

 

Not so long ago it was the global epicenter of the pandemic. 

 

Now they are forcing quarantines on visitors from other US states! 

Under no circumstances would I go back to New York City.  Governor Cuomo, who appears to have rehabilitated himself a la Giuliani in 2001, decided to free up beds in hospitals by sending sick patients to nursing homes while at the same time he refused to let them be tested for Covid effectively seeding the infection in the homes.  Cuomo and Mayor Di Blasio are responsible for the enormous scale of the disaster in NY, which could have been avoided.

 

I think there is a roughly even chance that Covid will not result in herd immunity, because none of the other coronaviruses have, and that no vaccine will be developed, for the same reason that they have never been able to develop a vaccine against any of the seven known coronaviruses, including SARS and MERS.  

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Under no circumstances would I go back to New York City.  Governor Cuomo, who appears to have rehabilitated himself a la Giuliani in 2001, decided to free up beds in hospitals by sending sick patients to nursing homes while at the same time he refused to let them be tested for Covid effectively seeding the infection in the homes.  Cuomo and Mayor Di Blasio are responsible for the enormous scale of the disaster in NY, which could have been avoided.

 

I think there is a roughly even chance that Covid will not result in herd immunity, because none of the other coronaviruses have, and that no vaccine will be developed, for the same reason that they have never been able to develop a vaccine against any of the seven known coronaviruses, including SARS and MERS.  

Sounds like you have a political bias against Cuomo and that doesn't interest me at all. New York has the virus under control now. Many other states particularly in the south and sunbelt do not. From an international perspective, it all comes out in the wash with the conclusion that the USA is failing. Obviously a massive correction needs to made nationally ASAP yet the USA lacks the leadership for that to happen. So it's obvious to me this is headed even further downhill.

 

As far as herd immunity, the evidence is showing being infected doesn't provide much immunity.

[cmarshall]

33 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

An admittedly extreme example of the cultural issues that the USA has in trying to get mass compliance with public health measures. 

 

He doesn't want to wear a mask. 

 

People focus on cultural differences because they are so foreground, which is an example of "availability bias."  But the extremely poor performance of the US in managing Covid is better explained by the fact that the federal government abdicated its duty to organize a national response.  All the successful governments including Thailand had vigorous national efforts led by the public health bureaucracy supported by the government.  Trump, by contrast, is continuing actively to sabotage the necessary public health efforts.  The high death toll in the US is entirely the fault of Trump and the Republican Party.  The US should have been South Korea.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

People focus on cultural differences because they are so foreground, which is an example of "availability bias."  But the extremely poor performance of the US in managing Covid is better explained by the fact that the federal government abdicated its duty to organize a national response.  All the successful governments including Thailand had vigorous national efforts led by the public health bureaucracy supported by the government.  Trump, by contrast, is continuing actively to sabotage the necessary public health efforts.  The high death toll in the US is entirely the fault of Trump and the Republican Party.  The US should have been South Korea.

I agree to a large extent but as someone who is as anti-45 as it's possible to be, I don't  think he is the only one to be responsible for the blame. For example the huge mistake of the CDC to refuse to use working WHO tests in the early months, insisting on creating their own "USA" tests, and then those tests being defective. You could say that the CDC is part of the U.S. government operating in the 45 era, but based on my understanding, they do have culpability for that mistake. There are other examples. But overall, I agree. A different president taking different actions earlier and the USA could have definitely been on the primo bubble list now. Not to mention of course all the deaths that could have been avoided (and are still piling up going forward). 

[bbi1]

On 6/17/2020 at 9:19 PM, samsensam said:

 

brazil?

Lol yeah that makes sense. Yankees and Brazilians should make a travel bubble with their own countries. No other countries wants to get Covid from Yankees who are dumbasses who refuse to wear masks, social distance and go to protests/riots/looting to spread Covid.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

Lol yeah that makes sense. Yankees and Brazilians should make a travel bubble with their own countries. No other countries wants to get Covid from Yankees who are dumbasses who refuse to wear masks, social distance and go to protests/riots/looting to spread Covid.

Reports so far are that there was very limited spread from the Black Lives Matter protest events. The theory behind that is they were outdoors and many of the people were wearing masks. 

 

Riots and looting are not representative of most of that movement so you obviously mentioned that only to inflame and broadcast your bias against the anti-racism movement. 

 

Political "rallies" that are held indoors, with people packed together and not wearing masks are already scientifically known to be highly probable super spreader events especially in regions that are already experiencing high infection rate.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, bbi1 said:

Lol yeah that makes sense. Yankees and Brazilians should make a travel bubble with their own countries. No other countries wants to get Covid from Yankees who are dumbasses who refuse to wear masks, social distance and go to protests/riots/looting to spread Covid.

I don't think it would be entirely stupid for countries that have given up the fight to have their own bubbles of pain. Not very ideal but why not?

[rumak]

On 6/20/2020 at 9:13 PM, Monomial said:

The fact that you agree with those in charge does not make you right. And the fact that many of us disagree with those in charge does not make the virus itself a hoax.

correct ,  though JT likes it his way better

[cmarshall]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I agree to a large extent but as someone who is as anti-45 as it's possible to be, I don't  think he is the only one to be responsible for the blame. For example the huge mistake of the CDC to refuse to use working WHO tests in the early months, insisting on creating their own "USA" tests, and then those tests being defective. You could say that the CDC is part of the U.S. government operating in the 45 era, but based on my understanding, they do have culpability for that mistake. There are other examples. But overall, I agree. A different president taking different actions earlier and the USA could have definitely been on the primo bubble list now. Not to mention of course all the deaths that could have been avoided (and are still piling up going forward). 

Had Hillary been president the White House Pandemic Response Team would still have been in existence and the response to Covid would have been led by epidemiologists and supported by the rest of the federal bureaucracy.  The US would not be the seventh worst country in the world for Covid deaths per million.

 

Trump gutted the CDC.  In particular, he muzzled and removed people like Dr. Meisonnier who should have led the PR campaign to communicate to the public.  Now, we don't know with precision when exactly the CDC gutting occurred and whether it's to blame for the particularly disastrous failure to produce the test kits, but, until there is evidence to the contrary, my assumption is that Trump is to blame, because the CDC never screwed up like that before.  

[Jingthing]

A very grim description of the USA virus situation on the front page of today's Washington Post. While it isn't specifically about travel bans and bubbles, you can be sure this has been read by most of the ambassadors in Washington D.C. It's not exactly a secret how badly the U.S. has done with this.

Quote

 

With Trump leading the way, America’s coronavirus failures exposed by record surge in new infections

 

Five months after the novel coronavirus was first detected in the United States, a record surge in new cases is the clearest sign yet of the country’s historic failure to control the virus — exposing a crisis in governance extending from the Oval Office to state capitals to city councils.

President Trump — who has repeatedly downplayed the virus, sidelined experts and misled Americans about its dangers and potential cures — now finds his presidency wracked by an inability to shepherd the country through its worst public health calamity in a century. The dysfunction that has long characterized Trump’s White House has been particularly ill-suited for a viral outbreak that requires precision, focus and steady leadership, according to public health experts, administration officials and lawmakers from both parties.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/with-trump-leading-the-way-americas-coronavirus-failures-exposed-by-record-surge-in-new-infections/2020/06/27/bd15aea2-b7c4-11ea-a8da-693df3d7674a_story.html

[cmarshall]

So, there are now some details about just how the Trump administration went about gutting the CDC.  Under Obama the CDC had an office in Beijing with 47 staffers.  Trump cut it to 14.  

 

Separately, the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), the global relief program which had a role in helping China monitor and respond to outbreaks, also shut their Beijing offices on Trump’s watch. Before the closures, each office was staffed by a U.S. official. In addition, the U.S. Department of Agriculture(USDA) transferred out of China in 2018 the manager of an animal disease monitoring program.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5

 

Read it and weep.

[timkeen08]

5 hours ago, cmarshall said:

So, there are now some details about just how the Trump administration went about gutting the CDC.  Under Obama the CDC had an office in Beijing with 47 staffers.  Trump cut it to 14.  

 

Separately, the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), the global relief program which had a role in helping China monitor and respond to outbreaks, also shut their Beijing offices on Trump’s watch. Before the closures, each office was staffed by a U.S. official. In addition, the U.S. Department of Agriculture(USDA) transferred out of China in 2018 the manager of an animal disease monitoring program.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5

 

Read it and weep.

Tipicaly left out from the link.  Selective copy and paste to meet your rederict.  Also add:

“There are many factors that go into decisions around staffing,” the CDC said in a statement.

Some health experts were skeptical that more CDC employees operating inside China would have made a difference in stemming the outbreak. Beijing has been widely criticized for silencing its own public health officials who warned of a deadly new respiratory disease emanating from the Chinese city of Wuhan and surrounding Hubei province.

“The problem was China, not that we didn’t have CDC people in China,” said Scott McNabb, a former CDC epidemiologist who is now a research professor with Emory University. He pointed to China’s censorship as the main culprit in the spread of the pandemic, which has infected at least 435,470 people worldwide, killed 19,598 and upended the global economy.

 

[Jingthing]

History happening now.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/coronavirus-pandemic-globalization/

Quote

 

The virus that shut down the world

 

Travel is one of the clearest ways to show how the coronavirus has disrupted the world. This globe shows the disappearance of flights over a five-month period, as covid-19 emerged in China and restrictions on global travel began to take hold.

 

 

[cmarshall]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

History happening now.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/coronavirus-pandemic-globalization/

 

Interesting.  Shows how effective China has been since domestic flights never disappear.  The same is more or less true for the US, but China controlled the virus, while the US failed to.  

[Jingthing]

Well Mexico is opening itself now but it can be strongly argued that they shouldn't be. 

 

¡Ay, caramba!

 

So pariah passport people can go there.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/mexico-is-reopening-because-it-has-to-should-you-go? 

 

Mexico is reopening after reluctantly shutting down. With a lack of government help, many of its people need to go back to work to survive—but does that mean you should go?

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The EU good and bad list will include Thailand as good. 

 

So, Americans, assuming you could get a flight to the EU from Thailand do you think you'd be allowed in? 

 

I think not. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Jingthing

[ifeelitall]

I know it's tempting to self-loathe as an American, but Covid-19 travel restrictions are based on travel history—not passport. If you've spent the last 14 days in a country deemed "safe" by your desired destination, you will be allowed in. Put down the world's smallest violin, boo.

[ifeelitall]

On 6/28/2020 at 1:34 PM, Jingthing said:

Reports so far are that there was very limited spread from the Black Lives Matter protest events. The theory behind that is they were outdoors and many of the people were wearing masks. 

 

Riots and looting are not representative of most of that movement so you obviously mentioned that only to inflame and broadcast your bias against the anti-racism movement. 

 

Political "rallies" that are held indoors, with people packed together and not wearing masks are already scientifically known to be highly probable super spreader events especially in regions that are already experiencing high infection rate.

"Reports" say one thing...the data says another.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, ifeelitall said:

"Reports" say one thing...the data says another.

Sure thing mate. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/protests-probably-didnt-lead-to-coronavirus-spikes-but-its-hard-to-know-for-sure/2020/06/30/d8179678-baf5-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html

 

Health

Protests probably didn’t lead to coronavirus spikes, but it’s hard to know for sure

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Jingthing

[meechai]

On 6/17/2020 at 1:11 AM, Jingthing said:

This is very depressing for Americans that want (or need) to travel internationally, but we may as well face it.

All we thinking Americans know is we would have to be Nucking Futs to want to travel anywhere anytime soon thanks ????

 

But for those trapped elsewhere....chok dee