Blacklist biometric information

[Raff72]

Hello,

        I realize there will be plenty of people who disapprove of this message and thread so by all means share your thoughts if you like, the last thing I'm going to do is start censoring people. Aaaanyways, basically some 20 years ago I was caught with a minuscule amount of what would be considered hard drugs and a larger amount of ganja. I was held on remand for a while, found guilty and then shipped off to the IDC and eventually deported. I have been back a number of times since, though not for perhaps four years or so. I'd thought my time in LOS was finished but a friend advised that a change of name by deed poll and a new passport would mean I could get back into Thailand relatively easilly, though he did recommend using a land crossing at least to begin with. This worked and I have been back a good few times, thankfully I learned my lesson and managed to steer clear of illegal drugs (I've been a 12 stepper now, with the odd hiccup for coming up on 17 years) and I've kept out of any drama during my times back in Thailand. I haven't been back for some years as I said as my Mum was getting on in years and I didn't want to leave her on her own. Sadly she passed earlier this year and tbh I find there is little holding me here anymore. 

 

I have been reading about some of the updates with bio metrics etc here with Immigration and I am wondering whether I am silly to be even considering trying to come back?? As I said, my trouble was 20 years ago so I am wondering if anyone knows if the records/photos/fingerprints taken by police and immigration back then would now be somewhere in their supercomputer waiting for something to trip a switch??

 

Again I know that there will be a number of people who aren't ok with these sorts of questions and if I am breaking any of the rules, by all means remove my post or even boot me if you like, but if there happens to be someone with some knowledge they are willing to share, I would really appreciate it.

 

Many thanks folks, hope to hear from you sooner rather than later.

[saakura]

"....I was held on remand for a while, found guilty and then shipped off to the IDC and eventually deported. I have been back a number of times since, though not for perhaps four years or so.".....

 

So what makes you think that you will suddenly now be caught?

[Raff72]

I've been reading that there are increased security measures at sea, land and air border crossings with photo and fingerprint biometric technology that they've started using since my last visit. I'm wondering if they would be likely to have put my old school analogue (?) photo and fingerprint records into their computer from a couple of decades ago?

[Raff72]

I have also been wondering how long the blacklist was likely to have been. Everyone told me it would be 100 years, but tbh I never actually heard that directly from any immigration people. They put what I assume was some sort of persona non grata stamp into my passport and it had a Thai year in it which I always assumed was 100 years away though I never actually bothered to find out for sure. I've since heard from some people (gotta always trust them "some people" eh??) that it's possible I was put on the naughty step for less than a century, with 20 years being a likely possibility. 

[darrendsd]

2 hours ago, Raff72 said:

I've been reading that there are increased security measures at sea, land and air border crossings with photo and fingerprint biometric technology that they've started using since my last visit. I'm wondering if they would be likely to have put my old school analogue (?) photo and fingerprint records into their computer from a couple of decades ago?

Only Immigration will know this - I doubt anyone here can give you a definitive answer 

 

There are or were services on the net that can check if your old name is on the blacklist - maybe start with that?

[BritTim]

My guess is that things like fingerprint data from 20 years ago will probably not be automatically searched when you pass immigration. Certainly, I doubt photographs would trip you up. That said, I would still advise using land crossings for entry. There might be more advanced tests done on those flying into Thailand by the Advance Passenger Information System that connects airlines with immigration.

[Raff72]

Yeah that's what I was thinking mate. The first bunch of times I came back I always went through Malaysia. I eventually took a flight to Cambodia (I think) from Krung Thep and when nothing bad happened I figured I was ok to be using Don Muang and then later whatever the new airport called itself. It would be good to have an idea of what would happen if I get pinched at a land border as obviously once you front Thai immigration you've already left Malaysia and I reckon they'd be somewhat interested to know why I'd been sent back as well as any fancy new stamps would now be in my Passport... As for checking if I'm on the blacklist still, I spose it can't hurt as long as I don't start sharing too much info on my new moniker as well as giving them a solid chance to take a piccy of me for their fancy new bio machines... But even if I do somehow end up getting pinched, tbh the IDC is a pretty tame place compared the the Thai equivalent lol...

[n00dle]

4 hours ago, saakura said:

"....I was held on remand for a while, found guilty and then shipped off to the IDC and eventually deported. I have been back a number of times since, though not for perhaps four years or so.".....

 

So what makes you think that you will suddenly now be caught?

What makes you think you actually read the post?

 

His concern is alluded to directly in the title - biometrics

 

To the op, there is not a snowballs chance in hell your biometric records from 20 years ago are in the immigration system. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by n00dle

[Raff72]

Thanks noodle, much appreciated mate. If I'm really honest with myself I'm secretly hoping a <deleted>load of people will tell me exactly what you have so I can build up enough steam to front one of the fancy new fingerprint machines at the border lol. I remember the first time I fronted the border again, I'd been to Malaysia a bunch of times again as well as Cambodia and the Philippines and I figured I may as well try my luck. I'd befriended some old schoolers in my time in LOS and a good few of them must have been sick of me sooking to them over email about never being able to come back, until one of them just told me that if I changed my name and got myself a new passport there was no way they'd be able to know who I was. Soo, I went back home, did the paperwork, saved up some coin and I was back in Malaysia a month or two later and then in one of the <deleted>ty vans through to hat yai from penang. I'd like to say I managed to stay sober my whole time back, but a major part of my recovery is being honest so it's probably best if I don't say much on the subject. But after a hiccup or two I managed to get myself to a meeting in Krung Thep and luckily (not that lucky really, anyone whose ever been involved with them steps will know that a decent place to be looking for help with getting yourself in shape is a meeting full of fellow addicts or alcoholics...) I managed to find a group of people that really helped me change my life. As I've said I haven't been perfect and I've stumbled more times than I'd like but thankfully I've somehow managed to work a half decent program and my life nowadays is a world away from what it used to be. If anything, the greatest gift that Thailand ever gave me was locking me up and scaring the <deleted> out of me for a while. I certainly didn't get myself clean straight away, but it definitely put my recovery in the mail and I eventually managed to read the <deleted> letter....

 

So again, cheers for the replies, really appreciated folks.

[faraday]

As n00dle says....I doubt, very much that your 'prints from 20 years ago will be in any of the ...ermm hi-tech wizardry here.

[Raff72]

Good to hear lol. Apologies about the wee essay there, seems I felt the need to be explaining myself there a little....  <deleted> all I can do is give the crew at Pedang a chance to throw me back in the pokey if they really want. I've been to a bunch of countries in my travels over the years but the one place I actually miss on a regular basis is ye olde kingdom. Plus if I'm honest I'm kinda interested to see first hand what the place is like since the upheavals of recent times as the last time I was there was maybe a year or so before the army decided to throw their spanner into the works. I thought it had only been maybe three or four years since I was over your way last time but no it was 2013 so I managed to dodge all the nastiness. Actually what are people's thoughts on the regime(?) or whatever you'd call it, do you think it's been a positive or negative run of events when all is said and done?? One thing that has intrigued me in recent times is talk of certain drugs actually being decriminalized/legalized which I never, EVER would have thought to be an even remote possibility...

[mstevens]

I would imagine that Thailand WILL update the system over time. Why wouldn't they? It would be a big hole in their system to have records of unwanted / blacklisted foreigners that simply need to be scanned and uploaded, yet they chose not to. I imagine at some point your records will make it in to the system and following that the next time you fly in the computer will flag you.

 

You really ought to check to see if you were merely deported (forcibly removed from the country) or deported and blacklisted (i.e. not allowed to ever return). If it was the former, getting back is no biggie. Upload a copy of the stamp from your passport and it can be translated.

[chainarong]

If you've had your photo taken you can bet your bottom dollar that your in big brother files somewhere , just where, thats the other sixty four million dollar question. The time factor might be in your favour, Bio has started over the last ten years, so you might not be in any updated file.

[holy cow cm]

Just take the chance and see. If you get denied then no big deal. Everything to gain and nothing to lose. 20yrs ago is along time.

[Prince77]

16 hours ago, Raff72 said:

the fancy new fingerprint machines at the border

Don't worry, during Corona time, they will not use them and ... you might not be able to travel anyhow.

[bluebluewater]

They can barely get online 90 day reports to work nor can they find their <deleted> with both hands.  Technology is a big word they can't spell.  You will be fine.

[balo]

Just take your chances, the worst that can happen they deny you entry at the airport, fly back to Malaysia or Cambodia, then cross the land border.

[mvdf]

Changing your name by deed poll won't circumvent the immigration system's querying process. The change of name is recorded in the chip itself under data group 11 (DG11). You would be lucky if the chip is not system-queried but if a diligent officer were to do so and assuming the new biometric system is equipped with chip access privileges which I suspect it is as they use cross-matching to verify a passport's authenticity, then your true name will be revealed. A "hit" would then lead to a chain of further queries and, if blacklisted, possibly unravel your past escapades in Thailand. 

 

 

 

[ChipButty]

In the past I have known 3 guys to change their names and get new PP and all 3 came back to Thailand and one was for drugs similar to you now you are right the system has changed but it didn't seem to pick up on 2 of them I know the third I have not seen him here.

Maybe test the water by flying to Malaysia then into BKK if you get knocked back then you only have to go to Malaysia not all the way back to your country of origin,

There was a guy on here not long back and he reckoned his wife could check and get you removed from a blacklist lets hope he see's your post and contacts you/

[007 RED]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 1:20 AM, n00dle said:

To the op, there is not a snowballs chance in hell your biometric records from 20 years ago are in the immigration system. 

It may then come as a bit of a surprise for you to learn that in 1998 Thai immigration implemented a new computerised database system.  As part of this upgrade, they (Thai Immigration) had a blitz on their old manual records which they had transferred to the new system.  Priority at the time was given to the records of individuals who had been deported or were otherwise banned from entering the Kingdom.  So information relating to the OP's deportation in 2000 will most certainly be in the system. 

 

FYI… I first entered Thailand way back in 1992 and subsequently entered/exited over 100 times.  The details of every entry/exit, dating back to 1992, are available to the Immigration Officer if he/she ‘drills down’ into their system.  I have seen my Immigration record on several occasions thanks to friendly IO’s.

[007 RED]

9 hours ago, mvdf said:

Changing your name by deed poll won't circumvent the immigration system's querying process. The change of name is recorded in the chip itself under data group 11 (DG11). You would be lucky if the chip is not system-queried but if a diligent officer were to do so and assuming the new biometric system is equipped with chip access privileges which I suspect it is as they use cross-matching to verify a passport's authenticity, then your true name will be revealed. A "hit" would then lead to a chain of further queries and, if blacklisted, possibly unravel your past escapades in Thailand. 

 

Sorry to correct you, but details of a person’s previous name(s) is not held on the so-called biometric chip which is embedded into most passports.

 

The only information that is currently held on the chip is basically the biographical information that is shown on the photo page of the passport, including an enhanced (cropped) copy of the passport holder’s photo. 

 

That said, as from June 2018 passport issuing authorities have been allowed to include the passport holder’s fingerprints within the second level security facility of the microchip.  Inclusion of fingerprints is not mandatory and each passport issuing authority can decide for themselves to include this option when now issuing a new passport.  FYI - The second level security facility of the microchip cannot be access by the Immigration standard desktop passport scanner, it requires a high security scanner that will normally only be available to Immigration investigation officers.

 

Regarding a person’s previous names:  This was one of a number of option that was written into the International Civil Aviation Organisation ‘s (ICAO) Doc 9303 Machine Readable Travel Documents, 7th Edition, 2105 guidelines.

 

However, the option to which you have referred, namely Part 10, Data Group 11 – Additional Personal Details has not been approved by the ICAO Executive Committee.  As a result, such information is not held currently held within the so-called biometric chip. 

 

If you had read Doc 9303, you would be aware that it was recommended that the inclusion of the Additional Personal Details (which also included the passport holder’s permanent address; telephone numbers; profession; and custody details etc) was identified as being ‘OPTIONAL’ and not mandatory thus indicating that it would be left up to individual passport issuing authorities to decide if such information would eventually be included on the microchip. 

 

At the time of writing this document (2015) it was appreciated that many countries Data Protection Laws preclude such personal information being shared without the individual’s explicit consent and hence this is one  of the main reasons why its inclusion has not been approved by the ICAO Executive Committee.

 

FYI – Most Immigration systems throughout the world are now very sophisticated and are more than capable of identifying if a person who has previously entered has changed their names or has acquired a second passport e.g. dual citizenship.

[talahtnut]

The Visa application is on line.

All your stuff is uploaded on the forms

Its possible they will suss you out at

that time, if not, keep original passport and

go for it. They can only turn you back.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, talahtnut said:

The Visa application is on line.

All your stuff is uploaded on the forms

Its possible they will suss you out at

that time, if not, keep original passport and

go for it. They can only turn you back.

FYI - Thai Embassies/Consulates who are responsible for the issuing of visas do not (currently) have access to the Immigration Database so they will not have any idea if a person is banned.

[007 RED]

OP…. Since your last visit to Thailand back in 2013 (Post# 10) the Thai Immigration system has been upgraded several times.

 

Firstly

Thailand adopted the Advance Passenger Information System (APIS).  This now means all international airlines flying into the kingdom are required to send your biographical details (basically the information contained on the photo page of your passport) to Thailand prior to you being allowed to board the flight. Your biographical information is then automatically distributed to the Immigration, Customs and Security Agencies computer systems which search their databases for you. 

 

If any of the above mentioned agencies have details on their system which precludes you from entering the Kingdom e.g. you have been banned, the airline will receive a “Do Not Board” (DNB) feedback code.  The airline is not informed as to the reason why you are not allowed to enter the Kingdom, but because of the DNB code they would incur very heavy financial penalties if they were to allow you to travel, so you will be rejected and your flight ticket cancelled which can be expensive if it's a long haul flight.

 

As several TV members have previously indicated, you would best travel to one of the neighbouring countries and then attempt to cross into Thailand via a land boarder.  If rejected it will just mean a walk back in the direction you came from rather than losing money on a cancelled long-haul flight ticket.

 

Secondly

During the past few years all Immigration ports of entry have been connected to the central Immigration system in Bangkok by fibre optics, thus now facilitating extremely fast and reliable data transfer. 

 

All Immigration desks at the ports of entry are equipped with Machine Readable Travel Document Scanners.  These allow the Immigration Officer to place the photo page of your passport onto the scanner which rapidly unlocks the encrypted information held on the microchip imbedded into your passport. 

 

FYI - The encrypted information on the microchip should be the same as the biographical data shown on the photo page plus an enhanced (cropped) copy of your photo.  If it isn’t the same, the system will flag up a potential fake/altered passport.

 

The information held on the microchip is sent to the Immigration system in Bangkok for checking against their database.  These checks include, but not limited to, checking if you are known to the system under another name, second passport (through dual citizenship) or have been banned from entering the Kingdom etc.  These checks are completed within a few second.  If you have are currently banned a warning flag will be displayed on the Immigration Office’s screen and you will then be subjected to a lot of questions.

 

Thirdly

The fact that your offence occurred 20 years ago does not mean that the details of your offence and subsequent deportation are not in the Immigration database.  FYI - In 1998 Thai immigration installed a new computerised database system and as part of this upgrade, they (Thai Immigration) had a blitz on their old manual records which they had transferred to the new system.  Priority at the time was given to the records of individuals who had been deported or were otherwise banned from entering the Kingdom.  So, your deportation record from 2000 will almost certainly be in the system.

 

Fourthly

Immigration has within the past 12 months integrated a biometric scanning facility into their system, e.g. finger printing and facial recognition.  If you were fingerprinted and photographed prior to being deported (albeit 20 years ago) that information will be in the Immigration database. 

 

The new fingerprint scanning software is produced by a German company, who according to their publicity blurb can match a fingerprint from within a database containing millions of ‘impressions’ within a fraction of a second.  If this is true, the odds will be very much against you entering if your fingerprints are scanned at the port of entry.

 

Note: Your fingerprints are not stored in the database as an image, but rather a series of numbers indicating significant points within your fingerprint thus making searching that much faster.

 

FYI – Whilst the fingerprint scanning system is reportedly accurate, a number of serious questions have been raised over facial recognition systems in general as they can produce unreliable matches in particular with people from a several ethnic backgrounds.

 

General Observations

You indicated in your OP that your passport was stamped when you were deported 20 years ago, but because you cannot read Thai you are unable to determine how long you have been banned for.  If you can post a picture of the deportation stamp no doubt one of the TV members will translate it for you.

 

From what I know of the Immigration here in Thailand they have a tariff system which dictates how long a ban will be based upon the nature and severity of the offence.  Bans can range from one year to life.  Given what you have indicated about your offence, I would hazard a guess that your ban would most likely be a minimum of 20 years because of the ‘hard’ substance.

 

How can you find out if you are still banned?  Over the years there have been many reports on TV that some lawyers and visa agents who reportedly have connection within Immigration are able to find out such information.  Knowing how the ‘brown envelope system’ works this is more than possible, but it is going to cost you.  Personally, I would suggest writing to Immigration HQ in Bangkok.  Provide them with a copy of your old passport photo page plus the page with deportation stamp and ask them if you are still banned.  You may be pleasantly surprised how helpful they can be at just the cost of a stamp.

 

Given the current Covid-19 situation I doubt that many people will be able to travel for quite some time so you have plenty of time to explore all avenues.

 

Best of luck.

[Mavideol]

On 6/17/2020 at 8:57 PM, Raff72 said:

I have been reading about some of the updates with bio metrics etc here with Immigration and I am wondering whether I am silly to be even considering trying to come back??

you just have to be careful and try to avoid "Immigration's BMW "smart car"  as an example "" "The BMW smart patrol car was sent in to investigate a man  seen walking in some village."