Farangs In Charge Of Hiring

[PeaceBlondie]

C'mon, torito, let's throw a little bull around here.

You are bragging that you have a uni degree as a teacher, on a teaching forum, and even in bold print, you make obvious errors of grammar (noun/verb agreement) and syntax, and errors in figures of speech. Your final sentence lacks a verb - a common mistake made by Asians learning English in their first year. If you were a third year secondary student, your post would have received 21 errors by my grading standard, and I only have education degrees by heredity - my mother and my daughter!

I've been interviewed by committees, consisting of the favourite English teachers in that part of Thailand (but not the best - they're not always the favourites). When school's already in session, they'll take an alien from Star Trek, like a Fargenhi. Most of the committee members don't recognize fine points of a good native speaker's English. Thais tend to prefer the younger, better looking, more light-skinned native speakers, which can be a big mistake (I'm a very handsome blond, but I'm ancient ). They sometimes ask stupid questions that are irrelevant, such as "Do you like Thai food?" They cannot spot a fake degree half as easily as a farang can spot a fake, and they don't know how to verify credentials.

Of course, not all farang native speakers are good. Not all non-native speakers are bad. But generally, having a knowledgeable teacher who's already on their faculty, to sit in and ask questions and later give professional evaluation of the candidates, is so sensible that it's seldom done.

A few quick examples of questions not likely to be asked by a Thai teacher, but more likely to be asked by a good native speaking teacher: "What were the major subjects that you studied? What is the phone number of the registrar of your university, or the website URL? Can you give us an example of British versus American usage, and how you would teach it?"

[torito]

Dear PeaceBlondie, thanks for your assessment. It has been done to me during the last 20 years.

I have a degree in Education but with specialty in Mathematics. I have never used this as later I got back to Uni and got a Computer Engineer degree, which is the one I used to migrate as professional migrant (degree also recongnized by the Department of Industry in Australia).

But I know enough to read in between lines and to assess those who really speak the language well and have education.....and you are one of them, disregarding your qualifications. My note in relation of my studies is just to discourage those who quickly denigrate people from third world countries as ignorant and inadequate (as many of your colleagues in here have done it).

In relation with the subject, I would not say that all non educated native English speakers are bad teachers. My point is that not all native English speakers, specially those with a 2 weeks course, by default are qualified to assess others, as in here has been suggested.

Edited April 22, 2007 by torito

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, torito, for a kind response when I kind of threw a little red flag in front of the bull. Thanks, also, for clarifying that you are not an English teacher. Actually, I hadn't noticed anybody here bragging about a two week course. The standard, such as the one taught by our sponsor SEE, is four or five weeks, and is best taken after one receives a bachelor's degree.

I thought the point that several of us were making is that a well qualified, experienced native speaker who helps the Thais in screening candidates, is (all other things being more or less equal) a big help to the Thais, even more than some non-native speakers. The problem arises when we're comparing apples to oranges, peaches, tangerines and pomelo. Now I'm going to eat some red grapes!

[torito]

C'mon, torito, let's throw a little bull around here.

You are bragging that you have a uni degree as a teacher, on a teaching forum, and even in bold print, you make obvious errors of grammar (noun/verb agreement) and syntax, and errors in figures of speech. Your final sentence lacks a verb - a common mistake made by Asians learning English in their first year. If you were a third year secondary student, your post would have received 21 errors by my grading standard, and I only have education degrees by heredity - my mother and my daughter!

I promess to improve my score in the next.

[PeaceBlondie]

C'mon, torito, let's throw a little bull around here.

You are bragging that you have a uni degree as a teacher, on a teaching forum, and even in bold print, you make obvious errors of grammar (noun/verb agreement) and syntax, and errors in figures of speech. Your final sentence lacks a verb - a common mistake made by Asians learning English in their first year. If you were a third year secondary student, your post would have received 21 errors by my grading standard, and I only have education degrees by heredity - my mother and my daughter!

I promess to improve my score in the next.

Well, now that we realize you weren't trained as an English teacher, I should repent for being such a mean English teacher.

[Ijustwannateach]

While it is true that non-native speakers will not always have poorer English skills than native speakers of English, it is a good bet- if a non-native speaker approached me with letters of introduction and a resume written in much better English than anything Torito has yet posted on this forum, and *assuming* there was any need to hire a non-native at all (i.e., insufficient number of native-speaking candidates), I might give him/her the benefit of the doubt assuming other qualifications were excellent and I could verify the quality of any educational institutions listed which were not located in native-English-speaking countries. Then I would make a phone call. If the person who answered had either a clear, comprehensible North American or a Commonwealth accent (the accents most commonly accepted as "native" ones), I would then consider inviting them to an interview. Please note that for me a strong, unclear accent even in a native-speaker would disqualify candidates from further interviews. Please also note that native-speaker status is not dependent on nationality, but on experience- a person who was technically a Thai national but who has been raised in the UK from an infant is a native speaker- so race is not the issue, but skill.

Since TEFL classes are primarily about SPOKEN English (as most countries can handle the rote-grammar stuff with local teachers, at least in theory) discrimination in favour of clarity and fluency is important. It's just common sense.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Indeed, even though Torito probably would be teaching math or computers rather than English, it depends where one has lived, not just where they were born. One of our regular posters on ThaiVisa was saying this weekend that although he's Thai, he doesn't speak Thai! He came to Bangkok and taught......English! He's from Texas

[torito]

While it is true that non-native speakers will not always have poorer English skills than native speakers of English, it is a good bet- if a non-native speaker approached me with letters of introduction and a resume written in much better English than anything Torito has yet posted on this forum, and *assuming* there was any need to hire a non-native at all (i.e., insufficient number of native-speaking candidates), I might give him/her the benefit of the doubt assuming other qualifications were excellent and I could verify the quality of any educational institutions listed which were not located in native-English-speaking countries. Then I would make a phone call. If the person who answered had either a clear, comprehensible North American or a Commonwealth accent (the accents most commonly accepted as "native" ones), I would then consider inviting them to an interview. Please note that for me a strong, unclear accent even in a native-speaker would disqualify candidates from further interviews. Please also note that native-speaker status is not dependent on nationality, but on experience- a person who was technically a Thai national but who has been raised in the UK from an infant is a native speaker- so race is not the issue, but skill.

Since TEFL classes are primarily about SPOKEN English (as most countries can handle the rote-grammar stuff with local teachers, at least in theory) discrimination in favour of clarity and fluency is important. It's just common sense.

"Steven"

Interesting point you made in here 'Ijustwannateach'.

It is very easy to make letters of introduction professionally done (there are companies specialized in this work). So a good presentation letter may mean nothing, until demonstrated that it was done by the individual himself.

Fifty percent of my project applications are rejected due to English errors in the presentation letter, but the other 50% has much more chances that the original 100%. Something that you learn in the practice (I refusse to make my presentation letters by somebody else as I am of the conviction that this is not a handycap, specially in my speciality, in where some people not even talk).

An additional point, and hope this can be of some assistance, as this is the most fundamental aspect of speaking any language. This is to achieve the capacity to make the points one intends. The capacity to communicate ideas. And this is not necessarelly an attribute of native english speaking people only.

If I have not made in here the points I had intended...then I will take formal classes (which I have never done in my life...as you can judge).

Edited April 22, 2007 by torito

[aussiestyle1983]

While it is true that non-native speakers will not always have poorer English skills than native speakers of English, it is a good bet- if a non-native speaker approached me with letters of introduction and a resume written in much better English than anything Torito has yet posted on this forum, and *assuming* there was any need to hire a non-native at all (i.e., insufficient number of native-speaking candidates), I might give him/her the benefit of the doubt assuming other qualifications were excellent and I could verify the quality of any educational institutions listed which were not located in native-English-speaking countries. Then I would make a phone call. If the person who answered had either a clear, comprehensible North American or a Commonwealth accent (the accents most commonly accepted as "native" ones), I would then consider inviting them to an interview. Please note that for me a strong, unclear accent even in a native-speaker would disqualify candidates from further interviews. Please also note that native-speaker status is not dependent on nationality, but on experience- a person who was technically a Thai national but who has been raised in the UK from an infant is a native speaker- so race is not the issue, but skill.

Since TEFL classes are primarily about SPOKEN English (as most countries can handle the rote-grammar stuff with local teachers, at least in theory) discrimination in favour of clarity and fluency is important. It's just common sense.

"Steven"

Interesting point you made in here 'Ijustwannateach'.

It is very easy to make letters of introduction professionally done (there are companies specialized in this work). So a good presentation letter may mean nothing, until demonstrated that it was done by the individual himself.

Fifty percent of my project applications are rejected due to English errors in the presentation letter, but the other 50% has much more chances that the original 100%. Something that you learn in the practice (I refusse to make my presentation letters by somebody else as I am of the conviction that this is not a handycap, specially in my speciality, in where some people not even talk).

An additional point, and hope this can be of some assistance, as this is the most fundamental aspect of speaking any language. This is to achieve the capacity to make the points one intends. The capacity to communicate ideas. And this is not necessarelly an attribute of native english speaking people only.

If I have not made in here the points I had intended...then I will take formal classes (which I have never done in my life...as you can judge).

I don't think we are the ones you need to convince mate, I hear what you're saying.

But TIT so you will more likely need to sell your story to the MOE and the schools that you want to be employed at, or you will always see these problems

[ngangu]

Sorry I'm late with a response, been away.

I used the term "Native Speaker" as an alternative to "Farang". While I don't personally take offense to the word, it isn't flattering and I sometimes tire of it. It wasn't meant to be elitist. I agree it should be about your ability to speak the language, not where you come from or the color of your skin.

What I don't think most Thais have is a sufficient understanding of the huge differences in our cultures and the many problems that can cause in miscommunication. I think it only makes sense to have someone who speaks the same language, not only verbally but culturally, to assist in the process.

The point I tried to make was that if the Thais in charge are willing to look at the situation and do what's needed to make it better regardless of ego and face, that says something to me about how they may handle other difficult situations in the future.

[aussiestyle1983]

Sorry I'm late with a response, been away.

I used the term "Native Speaker" as an alternative to "Farang". While I don't personally take offense to the word, it isn't flattering and I sometimes tire of it. It wasn't meant to be elitist. I agree it should be about your ability to speak the language, not where you come from or the color of your skin.

What I don't think most Thais have is a sufficient understanding of the huge differences in our cultures and the many problems that can cause in miscommunication. I think it only makes sense to have someone who speaks the same language, not only verbally but culturally, to assist in the process.

The point I tried to make was that if the Thais in charge are willing to look at the situation and do what's needed to make it better regardless of ego and face, that says something to me about how they may handle other difficult situations in the future.

A native speaker and a farang are two totally different things.

A farang is usually a different looking person, so lets say caucasion foriegner.

A native English speaker is someone who English is their first language. I would also call someone a native speaker if the were born in a non English speaking country by moved to a English speaking country when they were very young and can speak just as good as a native speaker. This applies to many many Asians and others who have grown up in English countries and can speak FLUENT English, just like the natives of that country.

I have worked with many farangs who were not native speakers, Swiss, Germans, etc. In fact, some non native speakers such as filipinos at my school could speak better English than the non native English speaking farangs.

So please don't assume all farangs are native speakers, I have seen just as many non native English speaking farangs in Thailand as I have seen native English speaking farangs. Some farangs here can't even speak English for that matter..............

It is also very easy to tell a native and a non native English speaker apart, regardless of what they look like.

Edited April 23, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[Scott]

I am a foreign teacher--Head of English--and I do all the hiring of foreign teaching staff. Basically the Director of the school doesn't want to be bothered. The director never meets them and usually avoids talking to them--I occasionally get a "who's that" for the new teachers.

I don't think it makes much difference if it is a Thai or a foreigner that does the interview. I think it has more to do with the skills necessary for interviewing people and where I work the Director's skills are as good as mine. She just can't be bothered and has other things to do. She is frequently absent from interviews with Thai staff as well--leaving it to her assistants.

I think there are a whole bunch of things to consider in hiring. First is the qualifications and skills for the job. We have subject teachers and we've had some excellent math teachers who couldn't string a written sentence together. They did what they were hired to do extremely well.

A second point that needs to be considered is what type of employee he/she will be. Are they extremely independent? Confrontational? Can they work well with others? Are they amenable to supervision.

We've had some very good teachers, but they couldn't follow the curriculum that was set up. They had their own ideas of what should be taught. Not bad ideas, but it didn't fit with what the students had learned the semester before or what was planned for next year--causing a lot of problems.

So, it's really not a Thai/foreigner thing. It has to do with interviewing skills and knowing what you are looking for.

[IJustKnowItAll]

I don't think it makes much difference if it is a Thai or a foreigner that does the interview.

Well it does if their English isn't very good. At my school the Thai admins English is quite poor and I would think this is the norm in most schools. I would have thought the head of English would also sit in on the interview but she doesn't. When i asked her why she just shrugged her shoulders. I think Thais like power and if admin allowed the head to sit in the interview it would show weakness. All the interviews I have had, have been with Thais and I was not impressed.

I think your situation is the exception rather than the norm. To me it does make alot of difference if it is a Thai interviewer as I believe their skills are not up to the job because they tend to give employment to people they know rather than what they know.

Edited April 23, 2007 by IJustKnowItAll

[aussiestyle1983]

So, it's really not a Thai/foreigner thing. It has to do with interviewing skills and knowing what you are looking for.

Which brings up a question.................

Does a Thai have the skills to interview a foriegn teacher who moslt likely comes from a different culture with different beliefs, different types of ambitions and different habbits? Let alone one who's English isn't up to scratch.

Also, in regards about knowing what to look for. Everyone knows what they want, but when you are interviewing someone from a different culture, im sure you are not going to get the best or most accurate impression of the applicant if you're from a completly different culture.

By having two people present, a Thai and a farang, thats the best way I see. Everyone has an imput and no single person would be to blame if the new employee turned into a nightmare (of course a farang would be blamed anyway, even if a farang wasn't at the interview)

[torito]

I am a foreign teacher--Head of English--and I do all the hiring of foreign teaching staff.

........

I don't think it makes much difference if it is a Thai or a foreigner that does the interview. I think it has more to do with the skills necessary for interviewing people and where I work the Director's skills are as good as mine.

....

So, it's really not a Thai/foreigner thing. It has to do with interviewing skills and knowing what you are looking for.

'Scott' you are a foreign teacher and head of English.

You know the job, so I take our word for it......(Besides, I am totally agreed with you).

[KhunLing]

Depends a lot on the salary IMO.

If it's a high paying (region context) job...then I've no problem with a farang sitting in and expecting me / you to meet western standards.

If it's a low salary job...really, they are lucky to get anyone at all.

I know some guys in Chiang Mai teaching for 200 an hour. They have no degrees. For 200 an hour, the school is lucky they even speak English.

For 200 an hour, there shouldn't even be an interview. They should simply hand you a piece of chalk and point you on your way...

For 40 - 60 00 a month...it's completely fair to expect to see a real degree / do a demo lesson / do an interview.

Edited April 23, 2007 by KhunLing

[Ijustwannateach]

I'd like to see this thread get back on topic, which is foreigners hiring in Thai schools. Discussion of individual English skills could possibly continue by PM or in a new thread, if Torito and Aussie both want to continue.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've expedited the process of staying on topic by removing ALL of the Aussie/Torito English flamefest... more of that in here will earn warnings for both of you.

"S"

[aussiestyle1983]

It's about time!

[Scott]

Of course an interview depends on language ability--that is what I meant as a part of the "skills" of the interviewer.

If you go for a job interview, you get interviewed by whomever is there to do the interview. I was initially interviewed by a Thai person--the school was quite small. The interviewer spoke good English, asked good and probative questions. Set forth situations and asked how I would handle them, then had follow up questions. If I was speaking too fast or she didn't understand, she asked for clarification. She had good skills.

One of the problem with being interviewed by a committee (and yes, two or three heads are better than one) is that you can't always judge the "fit" of the person into the existing school and personnel and this can be a very big problem in schools.

However, at the end of the day, a lot of jobs are given based on the fact that we need you tomorrow and your available tomorrow. Sad but true--and not only in Thailand.