Where to find beef cattle buyers?

[kickstart]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Possible but in my area it is extremely difficult to know for sure if a cow is pregnant or not.

 

The farmers don't know sh.t, and only an echography can confirm the pregnancy.

 

Problem is there are very few machines around because the farmers who don't hesitate to pay 70,000 baht for a cow, are not ready to pay an extra 500 baht to make sure that it is pregnant!

 

That is  BS ,you can do a rectal examination to determine weather the cow is in calf, here in Thailand about 90%  plus will be PD'ed pregnancy diagnosed .by rectal examination. 

In the uk our vet use to PD our dairy cows  at 45 days ,here in Thailand it normal 3 months.

One reason beef cows are not PD'ed is that the owner has no proper handling facilities cattle difficult to catch and handle , and beef cattle are a bit on the stroppy side ,and can kick, and your average Thai vet is afraid of beef cattle .

And as a rule around here a PD on a dairy cow is 100 baht ,beef cattle often  just a bit more ,due to the above.

IA 

A 3in1,  unusually  most beef cows will not come on heat for a good few months after calving ,

A cow calve she will always lose weight ,concentrating and using energy to produce milk for her calf and the poor diet does not help  conception rate will be poor , cow being thin ,they are a lot of beef cows about they have weaned there calf off ,or the owner has sold the calf, and she will not be in calf , 

Hellboy 75 said his wife relative cow had not had a calf for 2 years ,the above would be the reason why ,if that was one of my cows she would have gone for meat balls months ago ,can not make money rearing cattle that has a calf every 2 years ,2 of our beef cows have a calf every year. 

 

 

 

[Brunolem]

10 hours ago, kickstart said:

That is  BS ,you can do a rectal examination to determine weather the cow is in calf, here in Thailand about 90%  plus will be PD'ed pregnancy diagnosed .by rectal examination. 

In the uk our vet use to PD our dairy cows  at 45 days ,here in Thailand it normal 3 months.

That would be very nice IF there was a vet in our amphoe!

 

The closest one is in the city 20 km away, a cat and dog vet, who laughs at your face when you say the word cow (hua).

 

To them, city vet included, what passes for a cow vet is the guy who injects them with frozen sperm, and who has followed a 3 day training before being released in the wilderness.

 

Given his job, this guy will tell you that all the cows are pregnant, and will make you wait, hoping that you will forget about him in the meantime...

[Brunolem]

21 hours ago, Hellboy75 said:

The wife just told me wagyu calves go for 40,000 bht

Would your wife know a few places where it is possible to buy wagyu cattle (contact info, phone number, email...)?

[Brunolem]

21 hours ago, Hellboy75 said:

The wife just told me wagyu calves go for 40,000 bht

Would your wife know a few places where it is possible to buy wagyu cattle (contact info, phone number, email...)?

[kickstart]

On 7/17/2020 at 2:13 PM, Hellboy75 said:

The wife just told me wagyu calves go for 40,000 bht

That will be for a cross-bred  calf ,they are no 100 % Wagyu in Thailand , you would have to look close to see what the cross is, Pure breed Wagyu cattle are not big animals ,if it has any Indo Brazil blood  ,it will be difficult to get any condition on the animal 

Near Korat is a co-op that buys  Wagyu cattle, they stipulate Charolais x Brahman as the donor cow ,a big breed .

Near me is a dairy farm ,they are using  Wagyu semen on there dairy cows, the calves all black are not big compared to dairy breeds.  

[IsaanAussie]

I see a pickup truck come past the house every so often with a monsterous bull in the back, obviously to breed with someones cow around the village. I have no idea who has cows big enough to be able to carry and deliver this bull's progeny in fact it seems some die in the attempt. 

Years ago we had 10 or so little Thai cattle the BIL used to take care of grass in the dry and straw in the wet. Never saw a return so I lost interest.

So KS,

If I was to get interested again at a hobby/lawn mower level, what would be the best breed to look at? I would like to play around with fodder, silage type things so I will need some animals to try things out on.

[Hellboy75]

10 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Would your wife know a few places where it is possible to buy wagyu cattle (contact info, phone number, email...)?

There's a bloke not too far from us Thai but Arab or Indian looking lots of them involved in the cattle business he had 2 wagyu females he said he imported from Australia and that he was going to get some more she said she'll ask him when she's got time apart from him we mainly go to sikoraphum Market in Surin you see them there sometimes, as Kickstarter has said about a cooperative in korat I know there's one in phimai Nakhon Ratchasima as I've seen the pick up where we buy brewers grain (gut beer) near khon kaen

[473geo]

This my sons Brahman/Wagyu heifer - not sure what bull we will put it to eventually but I think there are options for producing good calves

 

The black bull calf below is Wagyu out of a 3/4 Charolais sold at six months for 18,000 

Edited July 18, 2020 by 473geo

[Michael Hare]

6 hours ago, 473geo said:

This my sons Brahman/Wagyu heifer - not sure what bull we will put it to eventually but I think there are options for producing good calves

 

The black bull calf below is Wagyu out of a 3/4 Charolais sold at six months for 18,000 

Certainly dry. No fresh green grass anywhere?

[kickstart]

13 hours ago, Hellboy75 said:

There's a bloke not too far from us Thai but Arab or Indian looking lots of them involved in the cattle business he had 2 wagyu females he said he imported from Australia and that he was going to get some more she said she'll ask him when she's got time apart from him we mainly go to sikoraphum Market in Surin you see them there sometimes, as Kickstarter has said about a cooperative in korat I know there's one in phimai Nakhon Ratchasima as I've seen the pick up where we buy brewers grain (gut beer) near khon kaen

That is the co-op ,been going for a few years ,we looked in to rearing  Wagyu with them ,too many hoops to jump though  ,like I said before when buying your cattle  I would say they would have the final say .

How much do you pay for your Gut- Beer a good feed , low DM dry matter ,a bit wet, we used to feed it to cows in the UK ,I pay 84 baht for a 40 kg bag . 

[Tounge Thaied]

I'm told you can purchase Brahman calves at auction Khon Kaen for 20,000 each. Keep them for 4 months and turn a profit of 5000-8000 per cow. Vietnamese transport to your place and then pick up in 4 months. This profit includes after subtracting for food with the healthcare/vaccinations done by yourself. Can anyone confirm this?

[Hellboy75]

29 minutes ago, kickstart said:

That is the co-op ,been going for a few years ,we looked in to rearing  Wagyu with them ,too many hoops to jump though  ,like I said before when buying your cattle  I would say they would have the final say .

How much do you pay for your Gut- Beer a good feed , low DM dry matter ,a bit wet, we used to feed it to cows in the UK ,I pay 84 baht for a 40 kg bag . 

We pay 90 bht a 40 kg bag not many places sell it the place we buy serves mainly dairy farms who are having alot more than us in our area iv seen ppl selling it at 110 bht a 30 kg bag 

[Hellboy75]

18 minutes ago, Tounge Thaied said:

I'm told you can purchase Brahman calves at auction Khon Kaen for 20,000 each. Keep them for 4 months and turn a profit of 5000-8000 per cow. Vietnamese transport to your place and then pick up in 4 months. This profit includes after subtracting for food with the healthcare/vaccinations done by yourself. Can anyone confirm this?

We're an hour outside khon Kaen city my wife never uses the market there bcos not enough charolais cattle and the ones there are expensive, personally I think you'd struggle to make that profit on brahma s in that time frame

[473geo]

4 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Certainly dry. No fresh green grass anywhere?

Fixing the slim pickings toward the end of the dry season is the next challenge, we have installed the bore and pump busy working out a cost effective way to irrigate. Good thing is, if we continue with the hand feed, rice straw and now add grass in the dry season, we should we should see improvement in condition for little extra cost. I am pleased with the improvement my wife has made in the cattle breeding quality, now to maintain year round condition will move us forward again. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by 473geo

[Brunolem]

41 minutes ago, Tounge Thaied said:

I'm told you can purchase Brahman calves at auction Khon Kaen for 20,000 each. Keep them for 4 months and turn a profit of 5000-8000 per cow. Vietnamese transport to your place and then pick up in 4 months. This profit includes after subtracting for food with the healthcare/vaccinations done by yourself. Can anyone confirm this?

In Sisaket there is an ongoing fad for Brahman, with prices increasing almost daily (think the US Nasdaq, or Tesla Co). 

 

We recently bought one for 49,000 baht, which we sold back 2 weeks later for 54,000 baht... and another one bought for 43,000 baht which was sold back 49,000 baht 4 months later. 

 

I have now taken all my profits, and wait for this price pyramid to collapse, which will happen soon enough. 

[Tounge Thaied]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

We recently bought one for 49,000 baht, which we sold back 2 weeks later for 54,000 baht... and another one bought for 43,000 baht which was sold back 49,000 baht 4 months later.

Well that confirms the profit margin of what I was told. How easy would it be to scale ownership of more cows up to make more profit? If you can make 6000 baht in 4 months, could you manage two more cows for a total of three per year at about the same profit? Then scale that up to let's say 20 cows 3 X per year? That works out to 360,000 baht profit for the year on 20 cows... less any rearing costs, food/vaccines etc.?

Edited July 19, 2020 by Tounge Thaied
Spelling errors

[Hellboy75]

4 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Well that confirms the profit margin of what I was told. How easy would it be to scale ownership of more cows up to make more profit? If you can make 6000 baht in 4 months, could you manage two more cows for a total of three per year at about the same profit? Then scale that up to let's say 20 cows 3 X per year? That works out to 360,000 baht profit for the year on 20 cows... less any rearing costs, food/vaccines etc.?

I might be wrong but you're talking about running a feedlot and Brunolem is saying he bought some cattle and somebody offered him more than he paid, in your original post you mentioned paying 20,000 bht for a calf for that money it would be quite small so let's say its 200 kg which I'm not sure it would be you feed it for 120 days its brahman say it puts on a kilo a day its now 320 kg I know somebody just sold 20 the best price they could get was 85 bht a kg that's 27,200 take off food for 120 days 4,000 bht? Leaves you with 3,200 in my estimate

Edited July 19, 2020 by Hellboy75

[Brunolem]

4 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

Well that confirms the profit margin of what I was told. How easy would it be to scale ownership of more cows up to make more profit? If you can make 6000 baht in 4 months, could you manage two more cows for a total of three per year at about the same profit? Then scale that up to let's say 20 cows 3 X per year? That works out to 360,000 baht profit for the year on 20 cows... less any rearing costs, food/vaccines etc.?

Well, be careful because the prices won't go up forever.

 

Actually, I am expecting a steep correction down, which is why I am getting out of the market.

 

Keep also in mind that what I describe is happening in Sisaket province, and that I have no idea of the state of the market in other provinces.

 

Generally speaking, if you buy young cows and let them grow, you can sell at a higher price.

 

But be aware that these cows are not growing as fast as cats or dogs...it takes time.

 

In our area, vaccines are mandatory and free.

 

As for the food, we grow our own grass...

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

I'm told you can purchase Brahman calves at auction Khon Kaen for 20,000 each. Keep them for 4 months and turn a profit of 5000-8000 per cow. Vietnamese transport to your place and then pick up in 4 months. This profit includes after subtracting for food with the healthcare/vaccinations done by yourself. Can anyone confirm this?

Back to BS again if this was the case ,and this is Thailand every man and his dog would be doing it and  that is  a good profit margin , the get-rich-quick merchants, and is any one else doing this ?.

Also back to a TV problem, members do not know the difference between a calf ,heifer ,bull and cow .

My translation is, you would buy heifers or bulls which  probably are 18 moths old ? Keep them and the Vietnamese would buy them from you fat ?ready for the chop. In 4 months, No.
As Hell boy said no good breeds at an auction , just Brahman/Indo Brazil crosses  cattle will be thin ,it will take 4 months just to get some condition on them that is before they start to put some weight on.

As Brunolem said, depending on  what you would feed them5- 6000 baht/head over 4 months would be about right ,.......before feed cost are taken out.

As for the bubble that has burst already ,this time last year you could get 120-130 baht/kg for beef ,as Hellboy is finding out down to around 85-95 baht/kg.

[kickstart]

23 hours ago, IsaanAussie said:

I see a pickup truck come past the house every so often with a monsterous bull in the back, obviously to breed with someones cow around the village. I have no idea who has cows big enough to be able to carry and deliver this bull's progeny in fact it seems some die in the attempt. 

Years ago we had 10 or so little Thai cattle the BIL used to take care of grass in the dry and straw in the wet. Never saw a return so I lost interest.

So KS,

If I was to get interested again at a hobby/lawn mower level, what would be the best breed to look at? I would like to play around with fodder, silage type things so I will need some animals to try things out on.

IA 

I thought I posted this afternoon ,my com is having a bad hairy day, the best cattle to buy would be like what your BIL had ,a Thai Native ,or a Thai Native X Brahman buy a heifer and put it to a Angus bull, the calf should do well ,your local DLD should have some semen.

BIL never made anything ,no inputs so no outputs, even Thai Natives need some feed, rice straw in the dry season is hardly  enough to keep them ticking over ,let alone any weight gain .

If your fodder is of good quality you can cut back on concentrate feed ,and do not forget to feed some minerals as we all know Thai soil is well short of minerals they will need some supplement. 

[IsaanAussie]

Sounds good KS. I have no interest in profiting from breeding cattle here, as you have said and I can attest by achieving good results with our pigs, it is a hard road that you have no control over. But there are people who wish to improve their feed self sufficiency and quality, while reducing costs. To me that is an opportunity.

 

[Tounge Thaied]

5 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Actually, I am expecting a steep correction down, which is why I am getting out of the market.

What your thoughts, anyone please give your thoughts, on this news article talking about controlling the import of beef. Could this raise the price within the Kingdom?

https://www.mcot.net/viewtna/5f081832e3f8e40af145e777

[Tounge Thaied]

6 hours ago, Hellboy75 said:

I might be wrong but you're talking about running a feedlot and Brunolem is saying he bought some cattle and somebody offered him more than he paid, in your original post you mentioned paying 20,000 bht for a calf for that money it would be quite small so let's say its 200 kg which I'm not sure it would be you feed it for 120 days its brahman say it puts on a kilo a day its now 320 kg I know somebody just sold 20 the best price they could get was 85 bht a kg that's 27,200 take off food for 120 days 4,000 bht? Leaves you with 3,200 in my estimate

You're estimate here seems roughly correct with what I was told. Can anyone confirm my estimate here? I am just looking into this to try to educate myself... I have no idea of the terminology, cow, calf heffer etc., growth rates, food price etc., but anyone here in this thread actually managing cows right now is this reality? Please correct my example below where needed so we can see what is the actual.

Let's use round numbers for this example, I will use 100baht/kg selling price (yes real world right now is 85)
Buy a small calf at auction 200kg in weight (is this a typical size?)

20,000 baht purchase price

4000 baht 4 month food price

Total investment 24,000 baht

1 kg/day growth (is this typical? maybe growth rates are not this fast?) 

Sell this calf 4 months later at 32,000 baht (again using round numbers 100baht/kg)

That's an 8000 baht profit... 

At a growth weight of 1/2kg/day then cut the final selling price to 4000 baht profit?
 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Tounge Thaied

[Tounge Thaied]

4 hours ago, kickstart said:

As Brunolem said, depending on  what you would feed them5- 6000 baht/head over 4 months would be about right ,.......before feed cost are taken out.

So... can anyone estimate feed costs?

5-6000 baht/head over 4 months - feed = ??

[Tounge Thaied]

6 hours ago, Hellboy75 said:

I might be wrong but you're talking about running a feedlot

Right... a feedlot. If a guy can get let's say get 4000 baht/head in final costs after expenses (ROI, return on investment) this could be worth getting into?

Kickstart seems to be confirming what Brunolem said. Just need a final estimate of profit after feed is subtracted. 

If a guy can get around 4000baht/head total, this is worth the time and investment as I see it. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Tounge Thaied

[Brunolem]

6 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

What your thoughts, anyone please give your thoughts, on this news article talking about controlling the import of beef. Could this raise the price within the Kingdom?

https://www.mcot.net/viewtna/5f081832e3f8e40af145e777

In theory it might, but the small farmers who raise the cattle are not setting the prices.

 

So it is difficult to say if a temporary price increase for the consumer would benefit the local farmers.

 

 

 

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, Tounge Thaied said:

So... can anyone estimate feed costs?

5-6000 baht/head over 4 months - feed = ??

Not easy ,you have to look at the whole ration ,and here in Thailand forage is the biggest problem ,or the lack of quality forage .

This figure of 4000 baht for 4 months feed that works out at 33.33 baht /day, and a beef animal will have a feed conversion ratio of about 6-1 that is it will eat 6 kg of food to put on 1 kg of weight .

But, the ration has to be balanced you just can not feed 6 kg of concentrate  food/day and get 1 kg weight gain, one it would be expensive that would eat all of your profits, i.e., I feed a 12% protein feed now it is 7.6baht kg if I fed that at 6 kg/day that would be 45 baht/day, and you have yet to provide forage ,be it  fresh grass ,grass/maize silage  or straw.

Also feeding a lot of concentrate can lead to big ingestion problems ,a problem on US feed lots.

I feed as said a 12% protein feed ,that is as low as it gets for protein  feed ,but we also feed brewers grains 22% protein ,at the moment some rough grass silage 6% protein and our staple the tree legume Gratin in Thai, the leaves are 22 % protein ,with this diet we can feed the 12% protein  feed as the brewers grains,and Gratin make up the protein  short fall .

So, look at your forage  say, if it is only rice straw you would need to feed a 14-16% protein fed which around here is  about 450 baht/50 kg bag or 9 baht /kg to supplement the poor quality rice straw ,which is only 3-4%, protein ,feed say 4 kg /day of 14-16% feed = 36 baht day ,again you have not  cost out straw ,and feeding  rice straw you will not get the weight gain you would struggle to reach 1kg/day weight gain, and your feed cost are high .

You can buy in maize silage ,one TV member has done it , my area is  a big dairy cow area maize silage is 60 baht/25kg bag or 2.4baht/kg feed say 10 kg maize silage day24 baht, 4kg 14-16% feed 36 baht day ,and that has put you almost 100% over budget, you can not make money buying in all your feed stuff.

And we have not yet looked at energy levels of the diet ,and some minerals about 780 baht/50 kg bag. 

So what is the answer  the only way is to  grow very good quality grass and cut and cart or have a very good grazing system ,a paddock or strip grazing system  would work  .dry season would be a problem ,cost of irrigation ,a wet rainy season ,the land floods .then  you can cut down on expensive concentrates, but your fertilizer cost would be high . 

What ever way you will struggle to make any money .

 

[Hellboy75]

39 minutes ago, kickstart said:

Not easy ,you have to look at the whole ration ,and here in Thailand forage is the biggest problem ,or the lack of quality forage .

This figure of 4000 baht for 4 months feed that works out at 33.33 baht /day, and a beef animal will have a feed conversion ratio of about 6-1 that is it will eat 6 kg of food to put on 1 kg of weight .

But, the ration has to be balanced you just can not feed 6 kg of concentrate  food/day and get 1 kg weight gain, one it would be expensive that would eat all of your profits, i.e., I feed a 12% protein feed now it is 7.6baht kg if I fed that at 6 kg/day that would be 45 baht/day, and you have yet to provide forage ,be it  fresh grass ,grass/maize silage  or straw.

Also feeding a lot of concentrate can lead to big ingestion problems ,a problem on US feed lots.

I feed as said a 12% protein feed ,that is as low as it gets for protein  feed ,but we also feed brewers grains 22% protein ,at the moment some rough grass silage 6% protein and our staple the tree legume Gratin in Thai, the leaves are 22 % protein ,with this diet we can feed the 12% protein  feed as the brewers grains,and Gratin make up the protein  short fall .

So, look at your forage  say, if it is only rice straw you would need to feed a 14-16% protein fed which around here is  about 450 baht/50 kg bag or 9 baht /kg to supplement the poor quality rice straw ,which is only 3-4%, protein ,feed say 4 kg /day of 14-16% feed = 36 baht day ,again you have not  cost out straw ,and feeding  rice straw you will not get the weight gain you would struggle to reach 1kg/day weight gain, and your feed cost are high .

You can buy in maize silage ,one TV member has done it , my area is  a big dairy cow area maize silage is 60 baht/25kg bag or 2.4baht/kg feed say 10 kg maize silage day24 baht, 4kg 14-16% feed 36 baht day ,and that has put you almost 100% over budget, you can not make money buying in all your feed stuff.

And we have not yet looked at energy levels of the diet ,and some minerals about 780 baht/50 kg bag. 

So what is the answer  the only way is to  grow very good quality grass and cut and cart or have a very good grazing system ,a paddock or strip grazing system  would work  .dry season would be a problem ,cost of irrigation ,a wet rainy season ,the land floods .then  you can cut down on expensive concentrates, but your fertilizer cost would be high . 

What ever way you will struggle to make any money .

 

My wife feeds hers first thing molasses mixed with water and salt then concentrate 14% protein mixed with brewers grain (gut beer) & cassava (gut man) which has been fermented for 2 weeks this is followed with quality grass at least 4 kilos then a small amount of rice straw this is given again later in the day without the molasses and no vitamins & minerals added to the food but a small amount molasses poured onto the grass, the last lot she sold she made 12,000 per head she estimates the amount of mixed food by guessing there weight and then feeding 2%

[kickstart]

20 minutes ago, Hellboy75 said:

My wife feeds hers first thing molasses mixed with water and salt then concentrate 14% protein mixed with brewers grain (gut beer) & cassava (gut man) which has been fermented for 2 weeks this is followed with quality grass at least 4 kilos then a small amount of rice straw this is given again later in the day without the molasses and no vitamins & minerals added to the food but a small amount molasses poured onto the grass, the last lot she sold she made 12,000 per head she estimates the amount of mixed food by guessing there weight and then feeding 2%

I have heard of this before  why Thai's mix water with molasses defeats  me  molasses is only 4% protein and 75% dry matter, that is the feed is 75% feed 25 % water  mix more water with it makes it 1 % protein? ,and about 5% DM,not a lot of feed value.

Gut Mun, cassava waste is a popular feed in this area for dairy cows ,comes from factory producing cassava flour ,farmers like it as it is only 60-90 stang /kg, less than baht/kg, they buy it in by the 4 ton pickup load  ,but it is only 1.8% protein and 25% DM in my opinion not a good feed ,farmers like because  it is cheap, and they say Woar-Ginn- Imm,  cattle eat it to fill up ,but cattle rationing dose not work like that, a Thai vet friend of mine likes it, treats a lot of cows with stomach problems, and can/has caused rumen acidoses which can be fatal in some cases.

Not for me to say, mix neat molasses with the concentrate  and  Gut Beer ,you could up the beer, do away with Gut Mun, feed ad-lib grass ,and add some minerals or salt blocks, some straw is good ,helps with rumen digestion .    

[Hellboy75]

4 minutes ago, kickstart said:

I have heard of this before  why Thai's mix water with molasses defeats  me  molasses is only 4% protein and 75% dry matter, that is the feed is 75% feed 25 % water  mix more water with it makes it 1 % protein? ,and about 5% DM,not a lot of feed value.

Gut Mun, cassava waste is a popular feed in this area for dairy cows ,comes from factory producing cassava flour ,farmers like it as it is only 60-90 stang /kg, less than baht/kg, they buy it in by the 4 ton pickup load  ,but it is only 1.8% protein and 25% DM in my opinion not a good feed ,farmers like because  it is cheap, and they say Woar-Ginn- Imm,  cattle eat it to fill up ,but cattle rationing dose not work like that, a Thai vet friend of mine likes it, treats a lot of cows with stomach problems, and can/has caused rumen acidoses which can be fatal in some cases.

Not for me to say, mix neat molasses with the concentrate  and  Gut Beer ,you could up the beer, do away with Gut Mun, feed ad-lib grass ,and add some minerals or salt blocks, some straw is good ,helps with rumen digestion .    

Is the acidosis caused by too much urea? Because a farm near ours the bloke fed his some of the mixture used to ferment the cassava neat to it a few litres 30 mins later it was on its side stomach bloating eyes rolling up he was lost well we've got some medicine that livestock told us to use on ours when they were scouring it changes the pH level of the stomach he told me to go ahead so jabbed it and 10 mins or so it was alot better when first stuck the needle in gas was just escaping for about a minute