The land with no face masks: Holland's top scientists say there's no solid evidence coverings work and warn they could even damage the fight against Covid-19

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html

Based on so few cases of it here and only 58 deaths ,i will keep wearing one thanks .

Well said, but you'll never convince the mask loving conformists, as they are wedded to their masks.

They think those of us that are not kowtowing to the baseless recommendation to wear want to kill other people.

Just now, bert bloggs said:

Based on so few cases of it here and only 58 deaths ,i will keep wearing one thanks .

No one is stopping you, but you now can't say there is scientific backing for forcing people to do so.

9 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Holland's Top Scientists

What did they smoke?

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

No one is stopping you, but you now can't say there is scientific backing for forcing people to do so.

different scientists different conclusions

2 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

different scientists different conclusions

Absolutely, and I know which ones I believe.

2 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

different scientists different conclusions

So your opinion is not based on scientific evidence, but just who you want to believe.

 

Thanks for getting clear on that

1 minute ago, spiekerjozef said:

What did they smoke?

Don't know. But, had they been wearing N95 type masks they would have removed almost all smoke particles of SARS2 size and below. It is guaranteed by the manufacturer. Proven by science.

 

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Absolutely, and I know which ones I believe.

me to ,the ones who say wear a mask????

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Absolutely, and I know which ones I believe.

They are talking about two different things.

 

1. Does a mask stop virus entering your airways - yes.

2. Does a mask help in a social situation? Who knows, just opinion.

 

No 1 you can count on.

Yet the same scientists and report does recommend face masks:

 

"The one exception outside of the medical frontline has been on public transport, where masks are mandatory on the basis it is difficult to stay apart on crowded buses, ferries and trains."

 

Also:

 

The mayors of Amsterdam and Rotterdam, the nation's two biggest cities, have been pressing for more power to impose mask-wearing in crowded areas, which was granted last week. Amsterdam mayor Femke Halsema, alarmed by throngs of tourists and young people making parts of her city too crowded, is insisting on compulsory masks for anyone aged over 13 in the Red Light District and two popular shopping streets.

 

 

 

The Dutch with 356 deaths per million shouldn't be giving advice to anyone about managing the risks of Sars-Cov2.  Much better to look at countries that succeeded in protecting their populations from unnecessary death such as Thailand (0.84 deaths per million, Vietnam (1 death in total), S. Korea (5.83), Taiwan (6 deaths total), and China (3.35.)

 

The arrogance of the Western countries in the face of their abject failure is unbelievable.

9 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

The Dutch with 356 deaths per million shouldn't be giving advice to anyone about managing the risks of Sars-Cov2.  Much better to look at countries that succeeded in protecting their populations from unnecessary death such as Thailand (0.84 deaths per million, Vietnam (1 death in total), S. Korea (5.83), Taiwan (6 deaths total), and China (3.35.)

 

The arrogance of the Western countries in the face of their abject failure is unbelievable.

Sorry, I will take top government scientists' advice who have reviewed all the evidence several times over yours, which has been demonstrated wrong on here many times.

 

And if you are one of the naive souls who believes Thailand had 58 deaths from Covid, frankly I have a beach front property in Chiang Mai you may be interested in.

 

Of course, if you don't test 99% of the population you'll have death figures like Thailand. To actually quote those manifestly false death figures, when excess death figures clearly show those death figures are false shows you simply don't have a clue.

20 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Sorry, I will take top government scientists' advice who have reviewed all the evidence several times over yours, which has been demonstrated wrong on here many times.

 

You give a link to dailymail, a very unreliable newspaper. You shouldn't read this!

 

I am Dutch, and I couldn't find any news sources in Dutch where he was telling this.  I do know that we have about 17 million reputable scientists in Netherlands, and they all have different opinions. 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

 

You give a link to dailymail, a very unreliable newspaper. You shouldn't read this!

 

I am Dutch, and I couldn't find any news sources in Dutch where he was telling this.  I do know that we have about 17 million reputable scientists in Netherlands, and they all have different opinions. 

 

 

 

Lol, sorry, but that's a funny and rather pathetic attempt to discredit the documented scientific advice from the Netherland's Outbreak Management Team scientists who advise the government.

 

Play the ball, not the man, dimitri. Look at the evidence, don't try to discredit some of the world's top selling newspapers. If you have issues with the dailymail just look at any other news source which carries exactly the same info, for example:

 

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/07/dutch-stand-firm-no-nationwide-requirement-to-wear-face-masks/

 

Or maybe the actual dutch national institute for public health? From their actual website:

 

Face masks not needed in private life

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

Still having problems trusting what the Daily Mail reported, dimitri?

Let the masks have there say! 

RIVM says there is no evidence to prove the effectiveness of face masks

 

"The National Institute for Public Health and Environment (RIVM) has announced that, at this point in time, they do not feel it is necessary to introduce a rule making face masks mandatory in the Netherlands, stating there is no hard evidence to suggest that the use of masks in public spaces prevents the spread of coronavirus."

 

Andreas Voss, member of the World Health Organisation expert team and head of microbiology at a hospital in Nijmegen, said he didn’t personally believe masks should be made mandatory, stating that because in many of the countries where a face mask rule has been implemented, there are several other measures also in place, so it is impossible to determine the impact of masks specifically. 

 

The WHO currently advises people to wear non-medical face masks in places where contact takes place in public spaces. Voss says this advice was issued, not because of scientific evidence, but because of political pressure and public opinion.

 

https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/rivm-says-there-no-evidence-prove-effectiveness-face-masks

 

So, dimitri, still think the Daily Mail did not report the dutch decision accurately?

 

Answers on a postcard.

21 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Still having problems trusting what the Daily Mail reported, dimitri?

 

Yes. I speak Dutch so I am able to read more newspapers in Dutch than you, and I am also able to better interpret who says what, and why they say things.

 

The problem in The Netherlands is that this organisation from day one said that wearing masks was not needed and would not help. The reason why they said this is that there were NO masks available. Even healthcare workers had no masks. The Netherlands were prepared very badly. To save masks they advised the population not to use it because there was no need.

 

And now they have to make a 180 degree turn?  Saving face is also a thing in NL.

 

There are many scientists, and they all say something else. You can selective quote one to prove a point. But it is just 1 opinion of many, and doesn't prove much.

 

The Daily Mail is similar. Out of many opinions they quote 1 to prove their point. And forget about other opinions. A very bad newspaper.

 

 

 

 

Masks and social distancing are now beyond doubt known to break local transmission. Countries will strict compliance are on top of the virus. The evidence is incontrovertible.

 

But there are contrarian loons among scientists too. No law there can't be. Sometimes it's sincere, sometimes it's just plain attention-getting.

 

What bothered me though was this piece I just read in the WaPo about anti-mask and anti-vax protests in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/08/01/thousands-berlin-protest-coronavirus-restrictions-freedom-day-march-cases-continue-rise/?hpid=hp_world1-8-12_virusberlin-110pm-1%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

I always had this notion of Germans as a superior people with logical and orderly minds and no room for eccentricities (or humor). But guess I am wrong.

 

 

19 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

 

Yes. I speak Dutch so I am able to read more newspapers in Dutch than you, and I am also able to better interpret who says what, and why they say things.

 

The problem in The Netherlands is that this organisation from day one said that wearing masks was not needed and would not help. The reason why they said this is that there were NO masks available. Even healthcare workers had no masks. The Netherlands were prepared very badly. To save masks they advised the population not to use it because there was no need.

 

And now they have to make a 180 degree turn?  Saving face is also a thing in NL.

 

There are many scientists, and they all say something else. You can selective quote one to prove a point. But it is just 1 opinion of many, and doesn't prove much.

 

The Daily Mail is similar. Out of many opinions they quote 1 to prove their point. And forget about other opinions. A very bad newspaper.

 

 

 

 

No you're not. I speak Dutch as well. I studied in Maastricht. And you're not better placed to interpret anything.

 

As you make clear by fantastically misinterpreting the official, clearly stated advice from the dutch national health institute, and the Outbreak Management Team is not advising not to wear masks because there are none but simply because the evidence does not support wearing them.

 

The Daily Mail reported accurately that the Dutch authorities had concluded that the evidence does not support wearing masks. I have posted links from the actual Dutch National health institute itself. And yet you persist in misinterpreting the clear evidence. And even though the Daily Mail reported the Dutch decision accurately you claim it's an individual scientist only. When it is in fact the entire Dutch National Health Institute and the Outbreak Management team which advises the government. You're a hopeless case.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Masks and social distancing are now beyond doubt known to break local transmission. Countries will strict compliance are on top of the virus. The evidence is incontrovertible.

 

But there are contrarian loons among scientists too. No law there can't be. Sometimes it's sincere, sometimes it's just plain attention-getting.

 

What bothered me though was this piece I just read in the WaPo about anti-mask and anti-vax protests in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/08/01/thousands-berlin-protest-coronavirus-restrictions-freedom-day-march-cases-continue-rise/?hpid=hp_world1-8-12_virusberlin-110pm-1%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

I always had this notion of Germans as a superior people with logical and orderly minds and no room for eccentricities (or humor). But guess I am wrong.

 

 

From everything I've read from many sources, it's the social distancing that is the most effective by far.  

 

What's so strange about masks being the difference is there are many places where mandatory mask wearing is required, yet cases are still going up.  Why would that be?  Makes no sense if masks were the end all and be all of safety.

22 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Masks and social distancing are now beyond doubt known to break local transmission. Countries will strict compliance are on top of the virus. The evidence is incontrovertible.

 

But there are contrarian loons among scientists too. No law there can't be. Sometimes it's sincere, sometimes it's just plain attention-getting.

 

What bothered me though was this piece I just read in the WaPo about anti-mask and anti-vax protests in Germany:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/08/01/thousands-berlin-protest-coronavirus-restrictions-freedom-day-march-cases-continue-rise/?hpid=hp_world1-8-12_virusberlin-110pm-1%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

 

I always had this notion of Germans as a superior people with logical and orderly minds and no room for eccentricities (or humor). But guess I am wrong.

 

 

Yah, there is so much "incontrovertible evidence" that masks work that the top scientific advisors of the Netherlands' Outbreak Management team and the Dutch National Health Institute concluded, after reviewing the evidence:

 

 there is no hard evidence to suggest that the use of masks in public spaces prevents the spread of coronavirus.

 

An RIVM spokesperson told NOS that there was ongoing research into the effectiveness of face masks, and that all the existing research was continuously evaluated by experts. However, at this point in time, the RIVM said there is no proof that wearing non-medical masks prevents infections. 

 

https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/rivm-says-there-no-evidence-prove-effectiveness-face-masks

 

Dimitri! Apologise to the Daily Mail right now! Or see your credibility vanish.

Also in The Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8585661/Kit-Harington-stuffs-arm-trousers-walk-Rose-Leslie.html

6 minutes ago, androokery said:

Also in The Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8585661/Kit-Harington-stuffs-arm-trousers-walk-Rose-Leslie.html

Sorry but your pathetic attempts to discredit the messenger are pointless. On the page of the Dutch National Health Institute you can see the Daily Mail reported the Dutch scientists' decision accurately:

 

 It is not necessary to wear a face mask. 

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

Apologise to the Daily Mail! They reported it accurately.

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

The Dutch with 356 deaths per million shouldn't be giving advice to anyone about managing the risks of Sars-Cov2.  Much better to look at countries that succeeded in protecting their populations from unnecessary death such as Thailand (0.84 deaths per million, Vietnam (1 death in total), S. Korea (5.83), Taiwan (6 deaths total), and China (3.35.)

 

The arrogance of the Western countries in the face of their abject failure is unbelievable.

Agreed my countrymen are wrong. Or at least those are. But many cities are now making face masks mandatory. Problem is that it is hard to do legally so there are other views too.

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Sorry but your pathetic attempts to discredit the messenger are pointless. On the page of the Dutch National Health Institute you can see the Daily Mail reported the Dutch scientists' decision accurately:

 

 It is not necessary to wear a face mask. 

 

https://www.rivm.nl/en/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/face-masks-and-gloves

 

Apologise to the Daily Mail! They reported it accurately.

Actually if you could read Dutch and as a Dutch guy i can you can read the news and it states that we are now making masks mandatory in some places. The government is afraid to give this order so now its up to majors of towns and they are doing it.

 

Its all a bit tricky legally. 

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Agreed my countrymen are wrong. Or at least those are. But many cities are now making face masks mandatory. Problem is that it is hard to do legally so there are other views too.

So you know better than the all the top scientists in the Netherlands' Outbreak Management Team who have reviewed all the evidence, several times, and better than the Dutch National Institute of Health?

 

Really?

The way I see it is; surgeons wear masks during operations to prevent bacteria/virus laden breath borne droplets coming into contact with the site of surgery. So masks must be beneficial if everyone wears one. If we all act responsibly and protect each other, we’ll get through this.