Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[vogie]

34 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

It would be a good idea to ask the people of England if they would like independence. Get rid of the hangers-on. And while we are in reform mode; House of Lord, history, BBC, PPV, Monarchy, stripped of everything, and chuck the Welsh teams out of our footy leagues.

 

Scotland could do a lot worse than go it alone. They should - at the very least - address the situation where a handful of Englishmen, own 40% of Scotland. Absolutely criminal. Go, Scotland go!!!!

The people of England do not want independence AFAIK, the English are not nationalists unlike our SNP neighbours across our border and we don't have any nationalists as MPs.

Who are the hangers on, if you mean the SNP I totally agree with you, there should be banners with 'SNP and their storm troops out of Scotland'. However if you mean the Welsh, they are the only pedigree British stock left, should the English wish to go all nationalistic we may need the Welsh as good breeding stock.

How can you reform history, do you mean re-write it?

[vogie]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Not true - posters are only called liars when they repeatedly post lies. 

You saying that posters are lying, doesn't make it so, all you are doing is when confronted with the truth is to play the 'get out of jail for free card.'

A lie is when Mrs Sturgeon says "once in a life time" and Alex Salmond says "once in a generation" on a "decisive" vote. HTH

[owl sees all]

36 minutes ago, vogie said:

The people of England do not want independence AFAIK, the English are not nationalists unlike our SNP neighbours across our border and we don't have any nationalists as MPs.

Who are the hangers on, if you mean the SNP I totally agree with you, there should be banners with 'SNP and their storm troops out of Scotland'. However if you mean the Welsh, they are the only pedigree British stock left, should the English wish to go all nationalistic we may need the Welsh as good breeding stock.

How can you reform history, do you mean re-write it?

My first wife was Welsh. She was OK.

 

I've nothing against any of these countries really. I like single malt, and I like Welsh rabbit too. But I see the role of England differently. I want to see reform; big time!! If that includes letting the Welsh, Scots and Nth Irish becoming independent countries then OK. A gathering of four states under a common umbrella. Of course, if the Scots join Europe then we will have to get The Don over to show us how to build a decent wall.

 

I lived in Port Talbot for a couple of years and agree that they make good breeding stock.

[CorpusChristie]

4 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

. I want to see reform; big time!! If that includes letting the Welsh, Scots and Nth Irish becoming independent countries then OK. A gathering of four states under a common umbrella. .

That is how it currently is , four independent Countries who form a United Kingdom , there is nothing to reform

[vogie]

So at the moment the Captain of Scotlands football team Andy Robertson cannot vote but if there was an indy2 a foreigner languishing in a Scottish jail can vote. Does this make any sense to any sensible living person?

These are the letters currently being sent out to all Scottish households, 14 year olds can register to vote now which begs the question ...............

[owl sees all]

34 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

That is how it currently is , four independent Countries who form a United Kingdom , there is nothing to reform

So how do you explain the welsh people playing in the English cricket team!? And the Welsh clubs playing in the English football leagues? And how come the Queen of England is also the Queen of Wales and Scotland?

 

Do people in Scotland have to pay the BBC fee?

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by owl sees all

[CHAZ1]

A 'You Gov" poll is not representative of all Scots

[CorpusChristie]

13 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

So how do you explain the welsh people playing in the English cricket team!? And the Welsh clubs playing in the English football leagues? And how come the Queen of England is also the Queen of Wales and Scotland?

 

Do people in Scotland have to pay the BBC fee?

 

 

The England Cricket team is a team that represents England and Wales .

Welsh teams playing in English leagues , there arent enough teams in Wales to form a league to the standard of Cardiff and Swansea , Monaco also play in the French leagues .

  The Queen is the Queen of the United Kingdom 

Yes, I believe Scottish people have to pay the BBC licence fee 

[owl sees all]

20 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

The England Cricket team is a team that represents England and Wales .

Welsh teams playing in English leagues , there arent enough teams in Wales to form a league to the standard of Cardiff and Swansea , Monaco also play in the French leagues .

  The Queen is the Queen of the United Kingdom 

Yes, I believe Scottish people have to pay the BBC licence fee 

The way you put it CC, is so simple. Thanks!

 

My daughter wanted to become Welsh. She was asked a few searching questions. Some that I can recall was; have you ever been to Wales, have you ever eaten a leek? Can you speak Welsh, and a geography question; what country borders Wales. 

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Quote

 

There is no need to conflate with brexit - while related in terms of one fueling the other, they are very separate matters. 

 

This is where we came in ..... I think that we will have to agree to disagree.

In that respect, I understand your earlier point now - but I see the actuality of Brexit being an almost existential factor in the suggestion of a material change. It is a demonstration of how the voice of the Scottish electorate is within the union of countries that makes up the UK. That is the issue I see as being the pertinent one in driving indyref2. 

 

9 hours ago, RayC said:

It is not my justification for the union but it does highlights an important point: Firstly, that if we must have referendums, then the 'rules of the game' should be explicit and unambiguous at the outset e.g. how long the result is binding for; what type of circumstance negates the process, etc. Yes there will, no doubt, be unforeseen circumstances but no reason not to try to tie things down as much as possible. 

If the rules had not already been set on 2 occasions previously, i would tend to agree with you, but we have a precedent that must be followed. 

 

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Tbh - and please don't take this or what follows as flippant; that is not my intention:  I'm fairly indifferent to Scottish independence. To use an analogy: I have a colleague who I like, but do not see outside of work. He announces that he is leaving. I'm sad to see him go and part of me wishes he would stay. However, he thinks it best, so we wish each other luck and get on with our lives.

This is actually a fantastic analogy - I will use it in future, if you don't mind. 

9 hours ago, RayC said:

Doesn't this rather contradict your point re Cameron and the Brexit referendum?

Or does it not just accept that under our FPTP system, this is how mandates are created?

 

 

[CorpusChristie]

4 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

The way you put it CC, is so simple. Thanks!

 

My daughter wanted to become Welsh. She was asked a few searching questions. Some that I can recall was; have you ever been to Wales, have you ever eaten a leek? Can you speak Welsh, and a geography question; what country borders Wales. 

Is there an actually authority that decides if a person is Welsh or not ?

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Absolutely agree with all you say except the last line.

Welsh support for independence stands at about 25%. It was about the same level in Scotland about 7 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jan/23/support-scottish-independence-slumps-lowest

 

If Wales sees a successful independent Scotland and united Ireland who can say what will happen. 

I must admit that in the past I too was brainwashed into thinking that Wales was too wee, too poor to survive as an independent country yet I railed against the very same narrative that was posited about my own country.

 

The UK has used this line repeatedly over the past century as its colonies have sought to break away; from Malaysia, Singapore, India, Malta etc etc. All were seemingly incapable of managing their own affairs - yet of the 63 countries that have broken away from Westminster, none have come back asking to subsumed once again. 

 

Stockholm syndrome plays a big part of why still so many Scots fear independence, but we will hopefully show Wales that they can do it too. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

You saying that posters are lying, doesn't make it so, all you are doing is when confronted with the truth is to play the 'get out of jail for free card.'

A lie is when Mrs Sturgeon says "once in a life time" and Alex Salmond says "once in a generation" on a "decisive" vote. HTH

OK, I have lost count how many times I have asked you, but lets try again.

 

Where is the evidence that the SNP is anti-English? You have repeatedly made that exact claim, and you have repeatedly failed to provide the evidence. Therefore, your repeating the same statement can only be concluded as your willful dissemination of a lie. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, CorpusChristie said:

That is how it currently is , four independent Countries who form a United Kingdom , there is nothing to reform

If we were independent, we would not need to seek permission to choose our own destiny, and we would not have people from another country suggesting that...

 

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

If that includes letting the Welsh, Scots and Nth Irish becoming independent countries then OK.

as if we are possessions that the English can decide what to do with.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

Do people in Scotland have to pay the BBC fee?

 

They do, although I was proud to read a couple of weeks ago that Scotland has the highest number per capita of homes in the UK without TV licenses. 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Is there an actually authority that decides if a person is Welsh or not ?

There is a very overused meme on Scottish independence twitter accounts that basically asks the individual, "Do you want to be Scottish" If the answer is yes, then the assumption is that they can be Scottish. 

I don't want to pretend that we are without nasty, bigoted people, but the term 'New Scot' is very popular amongst progressive Scots and immigrants alike; those who seek to participate and contribute broadly seem to be welcome, and would most likely be welcome to remain after independence. 

[owl sees all]

27 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Is there an actually authority that decides if a person is Welsh or not ?

Yes!

 

In my daughter's case it was to obtain some serious funding for her sport. She had good credentials (her mother being Welsh), and had been a world age-group (under 21) world champion. The English then matched the Welsh funding offer and she stayed English.

[vogie]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

OK, I have lost count how many times I have asked you, but lets try again.

 

Where is the evidence that the SNP is anti-English? You have repeatedly made that exact claim, and you have repeatedly failed to provide the evidence. Therefore, your repeating the same statement can only be concluded as your willful dissemination of a lie. 

If you choose to ignore the posts that I have shown to be evidence there is very little I can do about it, it just appears that the SNP must not be critised under no circumstances. 

The banner with 'England out of Scotland' is now being paraded outside Edinburgh Airport reported The Edinburgh News.

And I have lost count of how many times I have asked you, is this message 'racist' or even 'xenophobic' and could Mrs Sturgeon et al be doing more to suppress this kind of bad feeling that is on the increase since the SNP have come to power. And more to the point should people who show this kind of racism be arrested and charged?

Edinburgh Airport brands ‘England get out of Scotland’ protest as a ‘despicable act’

Campaigners from Action for Scotland staged their latest demonstration at Scotland’s largest airport, demanding the border be closed to English people.

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, vogie said:

If you choose to ignore the posts that I have shown to be evidence there is very little I can do about it, it just appears that the SNP must not be critised under no circumstances. 

The banner with 'England out of Scotland' is now being paraded outside Edinburgh Airport reported The Edinburgh News.

And I have lost count of how many times I have asked you, is this message 'racist' or even 'xenophobic' and could Mrs Sturgeon et al be doing more to suppress this kind of bad feeling that is on the increase since the SNP have come to power. And more to the point should people who show this kind of racism be arrested and charged?

Edinburgh Airport brands ‘England get out of Scotland’ protest as a ‘despicable act’

Campaigners from Action for Scotland staged their latest demonstration at Scotland’s largest airport, demanding the border be closed to English people.

You consistently and repeatedly state that the SNP is anti-English. 

I have repeatedly asked you to explain where in these stories you post does the SNP endorse, support or even show any sort of connection to this guy. Nobody is denying he is a racist bigot but you are the only one trying to smear an policitcal party to which he has no affiliation.

 

So, for the nth time, please show where he is connected to the SNP or where the SNP endorses him.

 

I can show you mountains of evidence of Farage carousing with know racists, of him blowing the racist dog whistle repatedly, of him whipping those racist brexiteer troops into a frenzy. You can do none of that when it comes to the SNP or Scottish independence. That is why Brexit will forever be a racist endeavour whereas Scottish independence is one of open, civic, all embracing emancipation. 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

You consistently and repeatedly state that the SNP is anti-English. 

I have repeatedly asked you to explain where in these stories you post does the SNP endorse, support or even show any sort of connection to this guy. Nobody is denying he is a racist bigot but you are the only one trying to smear an policitcal party to which he has no affiliation.

 

So, for the nth time, please show where he is connected to the SNP or where the SNP endorses him.

 

I can show you mountains of evidence of Farage carousing with know racists, of him blowing the racist dog whistle repatedly, of him whipping those racist brexiteer troops into a frenzy. You can do none of that when it comes to the SNP or Scottish independence. That is why Brexit will forever be a racist endeavour whereas Scottish independence is one of open, civic, all embracing emancipation. 

I'm not having that RR. I initially assumed there must be some truth in that far right/racist baloney, but whenever I looked for supporting evidence I couldnt find any.

Edited August 21, 2020 by evadgib

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, evadgib said:

How about the only country in the union never to have been asked & who also are the only country in Europe without a parliament?

Yes indeed, I think England should be free of those awful Scots, who given half a chance would force them to toss cabers, eat haggis, and call a swede a turnip! I think that you should also have your own parliament,  as we do, which deals with domestic issues, police, education, health service (Given Johnson hasn't  already sold it to the Yanks) and oversees local council services. I think that would solve the West Lothian question. 

 

No worries, if you wait for the Celts to leave, you will have one anyway, you could even put it in Westminster.  

[evadgib]

3 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Yes indeed, I think England should be free of those awful Scots, who given half a chance would force them to toss cabers, eat haggis, and call a swede a turnip! I think that you should also have your own parliament,  as we do, which deals with domestic issues, police, education, health service (Given Johnson hasn't  already sold it to the Yanks) and oversees local council services. I think that would solve the West Lothian question. 

 

No worries, if you wait for the Celts to leave, you will have one anyway, you could even put it in Westminster.  

York ????

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I'm not having that RR. I initially assumed there must be some truth in that far right/racist baloney, but whenever I looked for supporting evidence I couldnt find any.

If you are asking me if I believe that all Brexit supporters are racist then of course I don't. In fact, I don't believe that there is anything other than a small minority of Brexit supporters who could be labelled thus. There is no denying, however, that this small minority was deliberately courted by those driving brexit. 

 

But to say that the SNP is anti-English is simply incorrect. There is no evidence to show that anti-English people in Scotland are being pandered to by the SNP or any mainstream independence organisation. To repeat the claim so regularly without being unable to offer a shred of evidence to back that up moves from being incorrect to being deliberately untruthful. 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

You consistently and repeatedly state that the SNP is anti-English. 

I have repeatedly asked you to explain where in these stories you post does the SNP endorse, support or even show any sort of connection to this guy. Nobody is denying he is a racist bigot but you are the only one trying to smear an policitcal party to which he has no affiliation.

 

So, for the nth time, please show where he is connected to the SNP or where the SNP endorses him.

 

I can show you mountains of evidence of Farage carousing with know racists, of him blowing the racist dog whistle repatedly, of him whipping those racist brexiteer troops into a frenzy. You can do none of that when it comes to the SNP or Scottish independence. That is why Brexit will forever be a racist endeavour whereas Scottish independence is one of open, civic, all embracing emancipation. 

I refer you to my post #294, if it swims like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

I refer you to my post #294, if it swims like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

For the avoidance of doubt, are you referring to this post?

 

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

They do, although I was proud to read a couple of weeks ago that Scotland has the highest number per capita of homes in the UK without TV licenses. 

If these people don't have a TV fair enough. Otherwise they are just freeloaders breaking the law. Hardly anything to be proud of.

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

For the avoidance of doubt, are you referring to this post?

 

 

Yes, that be the one, as I said #294. If I can take a liberty and add further proof to the debate, from the beloved Guardian too. I know anything shown to you will be greeted with the same response, but I have tried.????

 

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

 

 

[Nigel Garvie]

4 minutes ago, RayC said:

If these people don't have a TV fair enough. Otherwise they are just freeloaders breaking the law. Hardly anything to be proud of.

I put my TV in the recycle centre 9 years ago, best thing I ever did in my life. Anyway BBC Scotland is so unionist biased that you would hardly be worse off reading the Express.

The internet tells you what you need to know.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Yes, that be the one, as I said #294. If I can take a liberty and add further proof to the debate, from the beloved Guardian too. I know anything shown to you will be greeted with the same response, but I have tried.????

 

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

 

 

A letter to a newspaper? Seriously? That is your response? Not a fact driven, researched article with cited evidence, but a letter? And not only any letter, a letter from Jill Stephenson, History Woman on Twitter, one of the most toxic, nasty, bile filled twitter trolls in the Britnat army? That is the best you can do? Well, at least you won't get splinters in your fingers any more because you are well and truly through the bottom of that barrel.

 

And even if every word she wrote was true (which, as per usual with that very unpleasant woman, is not) you still fail to show any link to how the SNP is behind it. 

 

So, a bit fat F from you that even Ofqal couldn't raise, I am afraid, Vogie. But I am sure you will still continue to peddle your lies in the vain hope of saving this doomed UK just as I will continue to rejoice as the numbers of independence supporters continue to rise. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

If these people don't have a TV fair enough. Otherwise they are just freeloaders breaking the law. Hardly anything to be proud of.

The general school of thought is that when the BBC ditched all notion of impartiality, it was no longer a public service but a propaganda tool that had to be financed by the people against whose interests it was working.