Two European patients re-infected with coronavirus: reports

[snoop1130]

Two European patients re-infected with coronavirus: reports

 

FILE PHOTO: A member of medical staff takes coronavirus test samples of a woman during drive-thru coronavirus disease (COVID-19) testing, on a converted ice rink, in Alkmaar, Netherlands April 8, 2020. REUTERS/Piroschka van de Wouw/File Photo

 

AMSTERDAM/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Two European patients are confirmed to have been re-infected with the coronavirus, according to regional public broadcasters, raising concerns about people's immunity to the virus as the world struggles to tame the pandemic.

 

The news follows a report this week by researchers in Hong Kong about a man there who had been re-infected four and a half months after being declared recovered.

 

That has fuelled fears about the effectiveness of potential vaccines against the virus, though experts say there would need to be many more cases of re-infection for these to be justified.

 

Broadcasters said on Tuesday a patient in the Netherlands and another in Belgium had also been re-infected with the virus that has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide and crippled the global economy.

 

Dutch broadcaster NOS cited virologist Marion Koopmans as saying the patient in the Netherlands was an older person with a weakened immune system.

 

She said that cases where people have been sick with the virus a long time and it then flares up are better known.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-08-25

 

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[DrTuner]

Not surprising, common cold caused by coronaviruses doesn't give long immunity either. Vaccines have too many problems, most importantly safety. Good news is treatments are underway, such as monoclonal antibodies. With time, this will be just one more pharmacy trip type of thing.

[soalbundy]

My feeling is that corona is here to stay along with influenza, we will just get used to it, vaccines will help no doubt but they won't be any more effective than the influenza vaccines every year. The fear is that you get influenza and covid at the same time, for older people like myself that could be a death sentence but on the other hand thousands of old people die of pneumonia every year, the old mans friend as its called.

[Caldera]

It neither surprises me nor have I put much hope into a vaccine. Optimizing testing (still too many false results, still too long of a wait in many cases) and treatment look a lot more promising to me.

[Bender Rodriguez]

possible indication that no vaccine will solve this ?

[chilli42]

This is a cronovirus.  So getting reinfected with a mutated strain is not unexpected. There is not going to be a cure.  It will be like the seasonal flu. Getting the flu vaccine may or may not prevent the flu and if it does not then you end up with a milder version.  That is plenty good enough for Covid.  It’s not that deadly anyway.   The press really needs to stop stoking the fear.

[car720]

7 minutes ago, chilli42 said:

It’s not that deadly anyway.

may I ask your age?

[tomazbodner]

We knew this from a woman in Japan at the time when that cruise liner docked there with many infected on it... There was a tour guide who got infected second time around then. So that's... 6 months ago? There were a handful more cases cited that were confirmed to be second infections. How can this be news 6 months later?

[RocketDog]

41 minutes ago, chilli42 said:

This is a cronovirus.  So getting reinfected with a mutated strain is not unexpected. There is not going to be a cure.  It will be like the seasonal flu. Getting the flu vaccine may or may not prevent the flu and if it does not then you end up with a milder version.  That is plenty good enough for Covid.  It’s not that deadly anyway.   The press really needs to stop stoking the fear.

Well, for people who are being massively over-cautious the constant press coverage, even if valid may be detrimental. For certain groups of people it is very deadly. 

 

Then there are the people who decided very early that the virus was a hoax, not really contagious, not really dangerous, etc. For these types maybe deep coverage is the only way to reach them and cause them to reconsider their previously uninformed stance. 

 

Hard to say about these things. 

One person's stoking fear is another person's staying informed. How should coverage be metered and who decides how much is too much? 

[natway09]

I doubt that any reinfectd person will die of the virus unless they have serious other underlying

problems 

[MikeN]

53 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

We knew this from a woman in Japan at the time when that cruise liner docked there with many infected on it... There was a tour guide who got infected second time around then. So that's... 6 months ago? There were a handful more cases cited that were confirmed to be second infections. How can this be news 6 months later?

Because in those earlier reported cases doctors were not 100% certain if they were reinfected or if they had not been completely cured, perhaps the virus had gone below detectable levels at the time but later flared up again. In the recent Hong Kong case the doctors are confident it is a new infection because the tests that declared him cured were more thorough and accurate than in the earlier cases. Possibly that is true for these latest cases too.

[MikeN]

6 minutes ago, natway09 said:

I doubt that any reinfectd person will die of the virus unless they have serious other underlying

problems 

It is well known now that COVID 19 can leave you with serious long term health problems, so you would be more vulnerable if reinfected.

[MRToMRT]

I have to say what shocks me about this is not that immunity does not last but that someone caught it twice.

 

Only 6% of the UK population have been able to catch it once! And according to our UK press no one is following the rules here.

 

 

[vermin on arrival]

2 hours ago, MikeN said:

It is well known now that COVID 19 can leave you with serious long term health problems, so you would be more vulnerable if reinfected.

No, probably not , as recent studies show that there is long term immunity from antibodies and t-cell and b-cell memory in patients who have asymptomatic, mild and serious cases. The reinfection by a mutated strain will most likely be non-serious. If people are not immune compromised, the reinfected will not have a major problem and the initial infection will actually have been a good thing for them as it will improve the immune response the second time around if they did not have a serious case the 1st time.

[Eric Loh]

So herd immunity is just wishful thinking. 

[vermin on arrival]

4 hours ago, tomazbodner said:

We knew this from a woman in Japan at the time when that cruise liner docked there with many infected on it... There was a tour guide who got infected second time around then. So that's... 6 months ago? There were a handful more cases cited that were confirmed to be second infections. How can this be news 6 months later?

That was most likely due to the sensitivity of the test picking up the fragments of the prior infection that were still in her system. The PCR tests amplifies the amount of virus in the person to detect it and can detect dead/non-infectious virus in a person's system.

[vermin on arrival]

8 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

I have to say what shocks me about this is not that immunity does not last but that someone caught it twice.

 

Only 6% of the UK population have been able to catch it once! And according to our UK press no one is following the rules here.

 

 

Antibody tests are not a reliable indicator of how many people have actually been infected as research has shown that around 30% of people have t-cell immunity and develop no antibodies even though they have been infected and successfully fought off a mild or asymptomatic case of the disease. Antibody testing and t-cell and b-cell memory are all needed to be sorted out to actually find out how many people have been infected in society. In states which had larger epidemics, the number already exposed has actually been huge This doctor in Sweden believes that 50% of Sweden has been exposed to the disease.

 

https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/08/04/how-bad-is-covid-really-a-swedish-doctors-perspective/

[vermin on arrival]

5 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

So herd immunity is just wishful thinking. 

No it's not as recent studies on immunity find that there is long term immunity from infection.

 

From a different thread:

Actually there have been a few studies lately (this August)that show immunity will likely last for years, a vaccine will likely work, if developed, and that even people who have no antibodies and mild or asymptomatic cases will likely have long term immunity based on T-Cell and B-cell memory. Please watch the entirety of this video; I watched it last night it was very informative and encouraging. We have been grossly misinformed by overly cautious statements by health care officials who are leading people to believe that this virus doesn't act like any other viruses of it's ilk.

 

First study discussed was from the University of Washington based on an outbreak on a fishing vessel in which 104 people out of 122 were infected (1 with a serious case-slightly less than 1% serious). Three on the vessel had antibodies and none were infected or developed symptoms on the trip. 101 of the 104 infected developed antibodies within 50 days of their infection (most much quicker than that).

 

Second study out of Stockholm discussed T-Cell memory. It showed that people with no antibodies and who even had mild or asymptomatic cases, developed specific T-Cell markers for Sars-Cov 2 and had robust t-cell memory and believe that people with additional exposure to the disease will likely not have a severe case; also means a vaccine will likely be effective in the future. Although not discussed in the video the Swedish medical authorities have stated that based on T-cell studies in Stockholm, they believe 30% have these specific t-cells and from this study believe that this form of immunity will likely last for years similar to the original SARS disease.

 

Third Study from the University of Washington studied people with mild symptoms and the development of antibodies and b-cell and t-cell memory. It showed that exposure to the virus resulted in rapid t-cell replication and that memory b-cells expressed antibodies to the virus.

 

All 3 studies showed the same thing, that regardless of the severity of the disease that there was likely to be long lived immunity to the disease. People either get antibodies or t and b-cell memory specific to the virus. Herd immunity is likely achievable and that vaccines, if developed, are likely to be effective. People with good t-cell response will likely not get a severe case now or in the future and should have long term immunity of some kind.

 

Even if no vaccine ends up being developed some kind of herd immunity should eventually take place even if the disease is endemic.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Z6wdu1eI0

[Tippaporn]

Why is it that the individual's ability to ward off illness and the body's innate ability to heal itself receives zero mention and attention?  It's a rhetorical question for me.

[Eric Loh]

13 minutes ago, vermin on arrival said:

No it's not as recent studies on immunity find that there is long term immunity from infection.

 

From a different thread:

Actually there have been a few studies lately (this August)that show immunity will likely last for years, a vaccine will likely work, if developed, and that even people who have no antibodies and mild or asymptomatic cases will likely have long term immunity based on T-Cell and B-cell memory. Please watch the entirety of this video; I watched it last night it was very informative and encouraging. We have been grossly misinformed by overly cautious statements by health care officials who are leading people to believe that this virus doesn't act like any other viruses of it's ilk.

 

First study discussed was from the University of Washington based on an outbreak on a fishing vessel in which 104 people out of 122 were infected (1 with a serious case-slightly less than 1% serious). Three on the vessel had antibodies and none were infected or developed symptoms on the trip. 101 of the 104 infected developed antibodies within 50 days of their infection (most much quicker than that).

 

Second study out of Stockholm discussed T-Cell memory. It showed that people with no antibodies and who even had mild or asymptomatic cases, developed specific T-Cell markers for Sars-Cov 2 and had robust t-cell memory and believe that people with additional exposure to the disease will likely not have a severe case; also means a vaccine will likely be effective in the future. Although not discussed in the video the Swedish medical authorities have stated that based on T-cell studies in Stockholm, they believe 30% have these specific t-cells and from this study believe that this form of immunity will likely last for years similar to the original SARS disease.

 

Third Study from the University of Washington studied people with mild symptoms and the development of antibodies and b-cell and t-cell memory. It showed that exposure to the virus resulted in rapid t-cell replication and that memory b-cells expressed antibodies to the virus.

 

All 3 studies showed the same thing, that regardless of the severity of the disease that there was likely to be long lived immunity to the disease. People either get antibodies or t and b-cell memory specific to the virus. Herd immunity is likely achievable and that vaccines, if developed, are likely to be effective. People with good t-cell response will likely not get a severe case now or in the future and should have long term immunity of some kind.

 

Even if no vaccine ends up being developed some kind of herd immunity should eventually take place even if the disease is endemic.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Z6wdu1eI0

Still lots of studies required to evaluate how the antibody respond over a period of time and whether the virus can mutate and disarm the antibody immunity. 
https://theconversation.com/immunity-to-covid-19-may-not-last-this-threatens-a-vaccine-and-herd-immunity-142556

[vermin on arrival]

21 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Still lots of studies required to evaluate how the antibody respond over a period of time and whether the virus can mutate and disarm the antibody immunity. 
https://theconversation.com/immunity-to-covid-19-may-not-last-this-threatens-a-vaccine-and-herd-immunity-142556

Yes, the science is muddied. For every study, on one side there is one on the other on every topic. Masks are good, Masks do nothing or may be bad. Immunity long, or immunity short. It's on its way out and death rates/icu cases down, or beware the killer mutation and cases are climbing omg no. There will be no meaningful second wave, beware of umpteen waves. Lock-downs vital, lockdowns bad. Open borders and travel with quarantines and test or shut all borders until it ends we cannot have one case. Have I missed one?

 

It is much more likely that this disease will function as similar ones of its ilk. The only problem was that since it was somewhat a new virus, the first wave hit hard. Most likely mutations will not disarm the immunity as there has already been cross coronavirus immunity shown, and new mutations will most likely not result in a serious case, which is the primary concern, but will just be more contagious and less deadly as viruses want to have live hosts to replicate in.

 

In addition, the media tends to over-emphasize the less encouraging and more frightening studies as it gets more hits, but thanks for that article. I really recommend watching the video. It's an interesting one. Have a good one. ; )

Edited August 26, 2020 by vermin on arrival

[DrTuner]

There's also the case of Amazonian tribes: When the missionaries entered the remote areas, they brought with themselves diseases with high R0 and many were decimated, as they had no immunity to a new pathogen. Eventually some did develop immunity and now they won't croak just because there's a flu. It seems to be the same mechanism at work, naive populations get a heavy first impact, after which it just gets less deadly as humans develop resistance. We are now seeing that happening in places where it hit first and hard.

Edited August 26, 2020 by DrTuner

[vermin on arrival]

24 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

There's also the case of Amazonian tribes: When the missionaries entered the remote areas, they brought with themselves diseases with high R0 and many were decimated, as they had no immunity to a new pathogen. Eventually some did develop immunity and now they won't croak just because there's a flu. It seems to be the same mechanism at work, naive populations get a heavy first impact, after which it just gets less deadly as humans develop resistance. We are now seeing that happening in places where it hit first and hard.

Same with the Black death. It wiped out huge portions of Europe (40-50%) and afterwards the people left had immunity and were able to get on with their lives. It wouldn't go on forever until it killed everyone and kept on killing and killing until there was a vaccine; herd immunity took place and it was centuries before there were future major outbreaks although pockets did develop. This one is clearly not even close to being as bad as the two aforementioned possibilities although the immune compromised should watch out.

[Meat Pie 47]

10 hours ago, soalbundy said:

My feeling is that corona is here to stay along with influenza, we will just get used to it, vaccines will help no doubt but they won't be any more effective than the influenza vaccines every year. The fear is that you get influenza and covid at the same time, for older people like myself that could be a death sentence but on the other hand thousands of old people die of pneumonia every year, the old mans friend as its called.

Well i am not a anti vaccer and I am sure I will take a vaccine for covid-19 when available

I get my flu shot every year for many years and never had the flu. So it does help for sure

[Scott]

Do NOT use social media, including YouTube as a source.   This is the rule:

 

18) Social Media content is not to be used as  source material unless it is from a recognized or approved news media source,  the source of any such material (Twitter, Facebook, YouTube  etc.) should always be shown

 

Continue and you will receive a suspension.  

 

[vermin on arrival]

6 hours ago, Scott said:

Do NOT use social media, including YouTube as a source.   This is the rule:

 

18) Social Media content is not to be used as  source material unless it is from a recognized or approved news media source,  the source of any such material (Twitter, Facebook, YouTube  etc.) should always be shown

 

Continue and you will receive a suspension.  

 

Ooopsie. Sorry : )

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

the meaning of this is simple - THE END OF HUMANITY !!

[meechai]

13 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Why is it that the individual's ability to ward off illness and the body's innate ability to heal itself receives zero mention and attention?  It's a rhetorical question for me.

No profits in that ????

 

[Tippaporn]

1 hour ago, meechai said:

14 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Why is it that the individual's ability to ward off illness and the body's innate ability to heal itself receives zero mention and attention?  It's a rhetorical question for me.

No profits in that ????

 

There are obvious reasons and then there are not so obvious reasons.  In my humble opinion it will be a long time before correct answers to the question are offered.  The correct answers would be a game changer of epic proportions.