UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[nauseus]

41 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Those were not the rules in the last referendum. Anyone who had been resident in Scotland for 6 months prior to the vote had the right to.

It did not matter if they were immigrants from England or anywhere else.

For consistency I think the rules for the next one should be the same as the last. Including the question asked on the ballot paper.

Maybe minimum voting age of 7 would help too?

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So in what way do you think the rules should be changed for the next referendum?

For a start the wording of 'should Scotland be independant' is a loaded question. The question should Scotland leave the UK would be a fairer and less biased, but you know all this anyway, but there is not a cat in hells chance of you agreeing to something that doesn't give the SNP a unfair advantage. 

A Scot living and working in England has no say in the future of his country even though he and his family might return to his homeland at some later date to retire or continue his work there. He doesn't want to return to find everybody with blue faces with a white cross on the orders of 'her that must be obeyed.'

[evadgib]

4 hours ago, rott said:

A referendum in Scotland and the same in Northern Ireland. 

Everyone has had two except the ???????????????????????????? who haven't had any; an act that must surely be deliberate.

Edited October 16, 2020 by evadgib

[7by7]

19 hours ago, rott said:

And where do you come by this information that there are "many" RC Unionists.? 

"Some" I would agree with, as there are some Protestants who favour a 32 county Republic.

The Forgotten Minority; Catholic Unionists in Northern Ireland

Quote

According to a 2014 opinion poll, 22.8% of Northern Ireland Catholics described themselves as “British”. The poll also revealed that 20.6% of Roman Catholic’s wanted Northern Ireland to remain an integral part of the UK. That is almost over one fifth of NI’s Catholic population

I'd call that 'many' rather than 'some.' What percentage would you call 'many?'

 

To be fair, it does seem that percentage may be dropping: As a Catholic unionist, I think that the DUP is the real reason moderate Catholics are turning against the Union.

 

Yes, there are Protestant nationalists; I've never denied that!

 

19 hours ago, rott said:

Your definition of Loyalist is not a broadly accepted one, if in fact there is a broadly accepted one. 

There is a lot of evidence to support it. Remember Ian Paisley celebrating Prince Charles marrying Lady Diana; calling her something like "A good Protestant woman!" (maybe not those exact words; but he did make a point of her Protestantism.)

 

So what is your definition ?

[RayC]

45 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

A Scot living and working in England has no say in the future of his country even though he and his family might return to his homeland at some later date to retire or continue his work there. He doesn't want to return to find everybody with blue faces with a white cross on the orders of 'her that must be obeyed.'

At the risk of hi-jacking this discussion. 1.2 million Brits living in the EU (5.5 million worldwide) were denied their right to vote in 2016. No matter though.

[7by7]

15 hours ago, kingdong said:

20 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Please explain why an independent Scotland joining the EU means the population will be force fed curried goat.

Who mentioned " force fed "? Can,t counter the point raised so you try to put words in someone's mouth,pathetic.

 So what did you mean by saying to @Rookiescot  "hope you like curried goat. Because it won't be too long before it replaces haggis as your national dish?"

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

At the risk of hi-jacking this discussion. 1.2 million Brits living in the EU (5.5 million worldwide) were denied their right to vote in 2016. No matter though.

I think that it does matter but who knows how all those 5.5 million would have voted? 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, transam said:

Where does it say "Force fed"...?

 

So what do you think he meant by his  curried goat instead of haggis remark?

[Rookiescot]

51 minutes ago, vogie said:

For a start the wording of 'should Scotland be independant' is a loaded question. The question should Scotland leave the UK would be a fairer and less biased, but you know all this anyway, but there is not a cat in hells chance of you agreeing to something that doesn't give the SNP a unfair advantage. 

A Scot living and working in England has no say in the future of his country even though he and his family might return to his homeland at some later date to retire or continue his work there. He doesn't want to return to find everybody with blue faces with a white cross on the orders of 'her that must be obeyed.'

Why is it a loaded question?

Right OK lets change the rules shall we?

Only Scots born there and currently living there should be eligible to vote. No immigrants (English or otherwise can vote). That was the rule in the Brexit referendum remember? Immigrants were not allowed a vote in that.

Lets change the question to "Should Scotland leave the UK with its extreme right wing English nationalist Conservative government of incompetent buffoons". Yes or No.

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why is it a loaded question?

Right OK lets change the rules shall we?

Only Scots born there and currently living there should be eligible to vote. No immigrants (English or otherwise can vote). That was the rule in the Brexit referendum remember? Immigrants were not allowed a vote in that.

Lets change the question to "Should Scotland leave the UK with its extreme right wing English nationalist Conservative government of incompetent buffoons". Yes or No.

No need for hysterics.

[7by7]

4 hours ago, rott said:

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

As far as I am aware there has been no decisions of that nature by either devolved nation since Westminster decided to change the status of the UK, so maybe you can provide some support for that assertion.

A referendum in Scotland and the same in Northern Ireland

Both of which occurred before the EU referendum. 1998 for Northern Ireland, 2014 for Scotland.

 

In those referendums they both voted to remain in a UK which was a member of the EU.

 

In the EU referendum both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU.

 

The circumstances are therefore substantially different to those in 1998 and 2014.

 

Why are you so against giving the Scottish people, and Northern Irish come to that, the chance to decide for themselves whether or not they want to remain in the post Brexit UK?

 

 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

No need for hysterics.

Hey you want to change the rules. So lets change them.

Wait you dont agree with my changes but everyone is supposed to agree with yours?

Its almost like you are trying to dictate to the Scots what they are allowed to do.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, 7by7 said:

Both of which occurred before the EU referendum. 1998 for Northern Ireland, 2014 for Scotland.

 

In those referendums they both voted to remain in a UK which was a member of the EU.

 

In the EU referendum both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU.

 

The circumstances are therefore substantially different to those in 1998 and 2014.

 

Why are you so against giving the Scottish people, and Northern Irish come to that, the chance to decide for themselves whether or not they want to remain in the post Brexit UK?

 

 

 

 

Do yourself a favour and ignore him mate. He is an Ulster Unionist. There is no debating with them. I have met thousands of them in my time and its a waste of energy. They clutch the union flag like its the Ark of the Covenant or something and their belief is unshakeable. 

[7by7]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Yet the Scots were happy enough to vote to leave the UK which would have entailed leaving the EU, would it not?

 Yes, it would.

 

But they would then, I understand, apply for membership. As most of the criteria for that are already met by Scotland, the process shouldn't be as drawn out as a country applying from scratch which doesn't meet any of those criteria; Turkey for example.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Hey you want to change the rules. So lets change them.

Wait you dont agree with my changes but everyone is supposed to agree with yours?

Its almost like you are trying to dictate to the Scots what they are allowed to do.

The unionists voted to remain in the UK, you are showing very little concern for them, it is not all about you.........or is it?

You had it all your own way in 2014, you will not have it all your own way in 2058.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

The unionists voted to remain in the UK, you are showing very little concern for them, it is not all about you.........or is it?

You had it all your own way in 2014, you will not have it all your own way in 2058.

Again you seem to be dictating what the Scots are allowed with your arbitrary 2058 deadline for another referendum. 

Its not all about you Vogie. 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

But that is not strictly true now is it, a Scot can be working and living in England, or anywhere else for that matter and he is not allowed to vote on the future of his country. Whereas an alien just moved into Scotland is allowed to vote on something that they probably know very little about.

 Not if the same rules as 2014 are followed!

 

Then in order to vote you had to be legally resident in Scotland and a British, EU or Commonwealth citizen.

 

Note legally resident; this would disqualify any non Brit just moved to Scotland; even EU nationals.

[kingdong]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

The decision was.. the negotiations are not.  The Brits still think they have some power. In this case they are the ones that have to accept the rules if they want to access the EU. 

 

I can understand the UK point on fishing. But if they want to access the one market they must agree to accept the EU rules or not get access. Would be unfair if lets say the Brits would subsidies something that the EU can't. Then you get unfair competition.  So I can't see the EU budging on that one.

up to them,it wasn,t accepting trade laws that led to the U.K. voting to leave,it was the interference in our laws and social engineering that led to that.

[robblok]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Honestly Rob it seems like you have an intense dislike for the British, or more specifically the English.

 

I'm not sure whether an English guy offended you in a bar and you bear a grudge, or maybe you just have some distant Scottish ancestry which predisposes you to dislike us? ???? But your desire for the UK to break up is odd since it has nothing to do with you. You don't seem so passionate about Catalonian independence for example. And yet here you are every day cheering on the Scots to leave the UK. Odd.

Are Scots not Brits too.. so there goes your anti Brit remark. I am anti Brexit so i would not mind the UK breaking apart because of this decision. Your pro Brexit so you see things differently.

 

I can't say that I have more a problem with Brits then other nationalities. The only remark i always make about Brits is that they seem to have a hard time not drinking. (But that could be because my sample size) My past experiences with Brits was actually quite good on camping's and such. But they were total alcoholics. Even carried a girl away that drank so much that she tried to pee standing and fell over not to wake up (ended up in a hospital for a delirium). 

 

Then you read all the protests when there is an alcohol ban many of whom are Brits. Hence my only remark about Brits and alcohol. But other then that can't think of a negative thing about them. There are idiot Dutch and idiot Brits depends on who you meet.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Again you seem to be dictating what the Scots are allowed with your arbitrary 2058 deadline for another referendum. 

Its not all about you Vogie. 

As long as the Scots/SNP are in the United Kingdom (which will not change any time soon), those also in the UK will have a say on what is relevant to our union.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

up to them,it wasn,t accepting trade laws that led to the U.K. voting to leave,it was the interference in our laws and social engineering that led to that.

That was just your own political idiots that made you believe it all came from the EU. They were incompetent and it was easy to blame the EU. Whatever went wrong they blamed the EU instead of taking some own responsibility. 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, kingdong said:

up to them,it wasn,t accepting trade laws that led to the U.K. voting to leave,it was the interference in our laws and social engineering that led to that.

Social engineering?

What does that mean?

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

As long as the Scots/SNP are in the United Kingdom (which will not change any time soon), those also in the UK will have a say on what is relevant to our union.

Did the rest of the EU get a vote on Brexit?

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

That did not answer my question in any way. Thankyou.

rather optimistic of you to expect anything else dare i say old boy.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Did the rest of the EU get a vote on Brexit?

Good argument. Best actually. 

[kingdong]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Social engineering?

What does that mean?

you,ve led a shelterd life perhaps?

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

As long as the Scots/SNP are in the United Kingdom (which will not change any time soon), those also in the UK will have a say on what is relevant to our union.

Tell that to @evadgib!  Seems he wants an English only referendum!

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

5 hours ago, rott said:

A referendum in Scotland and the same in Northern Ireland. 

Everyone has had two except the ???????????????????????????? who haven't had any; an act that must surely be deliberate

 

I see that while I was typing, he liked your post! Which seems somewhat self contradictory! But then, not the first time.

Edited October 16, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Did the rest of the EU get a vote on Brexit?

They are not a country like the UK, we are unique, 4 countries within a country.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, kingdong said:

you,ve led a shelterd life perhaps?

Social Engineering. 

noun: social engineering

1.

the use of centralized planning in an attempt to manage social change and regulate the future development and behavior of a society.

"the country's unique blend of open economics, authoritarian politics, and social engineering"

2.

(in the context of information security) the use of deception to manipulate individuals into divulging confidential or personal information that may be used for fraudulent purposes.

"people with an online account should watch for phishing attacks and other forms of social engineering"

 

Would ethnic cleansing be an example of Social Engineering?

[RayC]

47 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I think that it does matter but who knows how all those 5.5 million would have voted? 

I'd suggest that it's pretty long odds-on that the overwhelming majority of the 1.2 million in the EU would have voted remain. As for the others, less clear.