Abolish all Tourist Visas and Requirements Until 2030

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

Problem is how does this compare with legitimate jobs. Right now people have to have significant income and pay significant taxes to be able to stay in the country. How would they feel in case above was done? Thailand may wish to attract very highly paid people in smaller numbers and fleece... erm, tax them, rather than many people with very low added value. Look, one bloke in 1 day at a golf club spends more than a 30k/month "digital nomad" in 6 months.

There is no "one or the other" logic in this.  The golf-club guy won't be living, eathing, partying, etc near the 30K folks.  Thailand should continue to bring in as many "high rollers" as possible - but not foolishly throw-out the much greater total-income available from those who are not in that category.

 

There is no housing shortage - were tons of empty codos and boarded-up sois of closed-businesses, due to immigration "crackdowns" pre-covid.  Many lower-cost restaurants, etc with Thai-staff who would like the 30K guys - low-overhead being a primary reason Thailand was popular in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, tomazbodner said:

I surely agree with that, but even for people who stay in their home countries, these are rapidly running out of cash as money these people paid in is already used up. That's why you hear about the pension reforms all over the place, with most popular option being increasing retirement age... as that just delays the problem fix to the next government...

Increasing the retirement-age is breaking the contract with those who paid-in.  The "what remains of my life," when I finally qualify to get-back the money taken from me by force, is non-negotiable.  Govts which have assets should sell them to make us whole. 

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, Why Me said:

There're visas exactly for these kinds of folks. Smart visa if you don't want to incorporate here, non-b visa if you do and Elite somewhere in the middle. Perfectly legal and you and your funds are most welcome.

No - those only reach maybe 0.5% of the potential market.  And if you work for an overseas company, or own one, none of those apply.

 

16 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Long-stay wannabe bums wouldn't qualify for or couldn't afford these visas. Which is the whole point. Thailand has zero need for foreigners shacked up in a hole in a wall in Samut Prakan eating out of 7/11 freezers.

There is a difference between "bums" and self-supporting foreigners, who kept thosands of businesses afloat, which collapsed when Immigration 'cracked down' on Tourists - de-employing tens of thousands of Thais by so doing.

 

16 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Jeez, you aren't here to compete with the Thai poor. Foreigners are expected to do better or why on earth should Thais let them in? Methinks the 800k lumpsum or 65k/mth mins for retirement are perfectly fair. They indicate an ample safety net plus spending power.

The Thai poor earn 8K Baht/mo or less.  I suggested 30K/mo - a dream-income, to the vast majority of Thais. 

 

An income of 65K/mo is enough to live comfortably in most of the USA and much of Europe.  Most Americans on Social-Security live on half of that or less - but have a lower quality-of-life there, than they could in Thailand.

 

Thailand has the Selling-Point of being more affordable.  They should aim for the share of the market they can serve best - and DID serve - keeping many Thais employed - until just a few years ago.  High-Rollers and the 65K/mo folks in-between should be welcome too, of course - but there is no sense limiting to a small-fraction of the potential-market.

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Exactly. The OP's an ass. The fastest growing tourist demographics in both numbers and spending are China, Asean and India.

No one suggested those with money those countries should be excluded.   The point is that making it More Difficult for Westerners to stay - driven by Immigration Corruption - has been BAD for Thais and Thailand.
 

7 minutes ago, Why Me said:

It's just annoying that you get these Westerners shacked up in some village in outer Isaan with ex-Playskool Ploy imagining themselves superior to her clan and therefore deserving of both gratitude and a long-stay visa.

 

It is really annyong that you get these self-righteous (expliteves) who think everyone who doesn't have their level of wealth, or lives "shacked-up" in Issan, is married to a an ex bar-girl. 

 

If they are supporting a Thai family, why do you have a problem with it?  Would it be better the Thai does NOT have their support, because poorer Thais "don't deserve it," or something?

[JackThompson]

36 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Great idea...then make Thailand again the hub of boiler rooms, money laundering, paedophelia and drug trafficking....has to be some rules/restrictions in place.

They already let in masses of penniless-poor with L-Visas for the "boiler rooms."  We are talking about people with their own money to spend. 

 

Not sure why you would think folks with MORE money would not be involved in drug-trafficking, etc.

 

31 minutes ago, ravip said:

They tend to Have Money to spend, is why.

 

Tell us from where THEY got THAT money.

In the most disgusting manner - or not?  Tel us please

I had a business in my passport-country (yes, even paid taxes there), which immigration said "did not count" to support my Thai wife.  Many work for overseas businesses.

 

The folks with dirty-money already get their visas by paying off immigration through their agent-partners - so those "bad guys" already get the VIP treatment - "30-seconds for a picture" extensions, and no waiting in the queue.  They don't even have to leave their own money in a Thai bank - the agent "handles" that, too.

Edited September 7, 2020 by JackThompson

[johnray]

The problem is that no one is coming at all not how long they stay.

 

No one in their right mind would ditch their family, quit their job and go for a year long holiday.  Most people have a week two break.  Maximum three weeks.

 

If it is a year then they are looking for study or business.

Edited September 7, 2020 by johnray

[ICELANDMAN]

Your proposal is absolutely the best thing for a Western country to do, but as we know it will be impossible because it goes beyond understanding the population classification and we are on the last step, the lowest. So abolishing the whole bureaucratic system is simply impossible because at least part of the population is the middle caste that is the bureaucrats who have no interest in losing their jobs if you remove the Visa system. And the government needs the middle class to survive.

[FlyingThai]

6 hours ago, Pravda said:

This is why western economies should stop doling out state pensions for anyone living in Thailand for more than 6 months. Why should western taxpayers support old men sponsoring Isaan families? I fully support pension freeze like Britain is doing and wish Canada did the same thing. 

 

I don't give a flying f about Thailand economy. 

Not sure where you're from but in my country (as well as in Canada) the pension payments aren't being paid by the taxpayer but depend on ones previous contributions into the pension fund over a lifetime. That's why everyone gets a different amount of pension payments. In most cases it's a revolving generational system, not a personal fund meaning the workers of today pay for the current pensioners and so on. In any case it's not tax money going to retirees abroad.

 

On top of that a countries social security system actually profits A LOT by older pensioners living abroad because the system doesn't have to provide them with additional assistance such as health care and other senior entitlement programs. Those are really expensive and don't apply to residents abroad.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, johnray said:

No one in their right mind would ditch their family, quit their job and go for a year long holiday.  Most people have a week two.  Maximum three weeks.

An increasing number of people do not need to go to a "brick and mortar" location to do their job.  This recently jumped higher, due to covid - and many of those jobs are staying remote.  Many of those folks would like to live somewhere with lower-overhead while doing those jobs.

 

Their family could certainly come with them - are international private schools here at affordable rates - much better than many home-country school-options for the Western middle-class.

 

10 minutes ago, ICELANDMAN said:

. So abolishing the whole bureaucratic system is simply impossible because at least part of the population is the middle caste that is the bureaucrats who have no interest in losing their jobs if you remove the Visa system. And the government needs the middle class to survive.

I agree best not to remove the visa-system / immigration entirely - just offer sane visa/extension options to get a wider market-share spending their incomes in Thailand.

[Enoon]

No need to declare "open-visa".

 

First SEAN to open up with even fractionally easier entrance than pre-COVID will vacuum up the tourists.

 

Others will scramble to follow likewise, desperately tying to salvage something for themselves.

 

Only a question of who's going to crack first.

 

 

[ICELANDMAN]

6 hours ago, donnacha said:

Yeah. I do ????

I'm not sure why some members are so horrified by what would essentially be a continuation of the situation that existed for half-a-century before the junta seized power.

The difference now is that they actually NEED that foreign currency, mostly injected directly into the poorest parts of the economy, more than they need it in 1970, or 1980, or 1990, or 2000, or 2010.

This country has no real welfare system. Or, rather, WE effectively became their welfare system, and provided the demand that generated jobs for a million low-skilled workers.

The feeble attempts to distribute assistance during the first few months of the pandemic ended up being a lottery that helped very few. Having repeatedly crushed democracy every time that elected government showed any inclination to do anything for the people, the elites are not about to turn around and provide anything more than theatrical assistance to the masses.

Thailand is a rich country, but that wealth will never be shared. The elites have enjoyed low/no taxes for years, mainly because there is no real welfare system, and that has only been possible because millions of tourists kept coming and generating those ground-level jobs.

The junta may be too stupid to realize it but, even though no one in their family or circle of friends works in a restaurant or hotel, their continued survival relies on the masses being able to eat. It may turn out that the Thai people actually do have a limit to what they will meekly accept.

Covid will be with us for a while. Nothing really can open up until 2021, but it could conceivably take even longer than that. Two years without tourism is going to destroy a lot of lives, a lot of relationships. Desperation changes people. It changes countries.

The elites should pray that tourism can return sooner rather than later. And, when the doors can open, they should do everything in their power to win as many tourists as they can, for as long as they can.

 

With this answer it would seem that you are worried about the survival of the elite, if the people are fine so we have nothing to say here we are just tourists

 

[FlyingThai]

13 minutes ago, Enoon said:

No need to declare "open-visa".

 

First SEAN to open up with even fractionally easier entrance than pre-COVID will vacuum up the tourists.

 

Others will scramble to follow likewise, desperately tying to salvage something for themselves.

 

Only a question of who's going to crack first.

 

 

This is based on the notion that countries actually want tourists. Right now they don't. And how many "tourists" are really enticed by the possibility of being able to stay up to a year? Most folks have a job to go back to after 2-3 weeks.

 

Let's get away from the ridiculous interpretation that those staying for years in Thailand are "tourists". They aren't! If you stay somewhere for an extended period of time you're a foreign resident and as such should procure proper papers.

 

What Thailand should do is provide a reasonable immigration program such as MM2H in Malaysia. And another visa category for these digital nomads that are typing away on their computers all over Thailand because these aren't tourists either and work illegally in the country. Their activity should be subject to taxation and if that's not a desired outcome then sorry, Thailand isn't the right place. At least in a sense you could say that by paying for the overpriced Elite Visa you already pre-pay some sort of tax so they should leave you alone.

[Why Me]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

The point is that making it More Difficult for Westerners to stay - driven by Immigration Corruption - has been BAD for Thais and Thailand.

No it hasn't. It's been great. It's kept out those without the finances to afford a proper visa. These people, by definition, contribute little to the economy and often were up to no good. The less of this sort the better for Thailand and people like me who don't appreciate being tainted by the same brush.

 

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

If they are supporting a Thai family, why do you have a problem with it?  Would it be better the Thai does NOT have their support, because poorer Thais "don't deserve it," or something?

I have zero problem with someone on a marriage visa supporting their Thai family. But no, living on 10k b. a month with your Thai bride doesn't qualify you for a long-stay visa. And rightly so because Thailand (or any country for that matter) has no need for foreigners to add to their subsistence level demographic. If you insist on being an indigent married couple, take her back to your home country. At least as citizen you'll have access to all the support systems.

 

Check out any non-shirthole country, east or west, for their retirement or marriage or long-stay tourist programs. The requirements are always multiples of the min cost of living. Heck, 400k b. lumpsum for a marriage visa here is generous.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Why Me

[JackThompson]

12 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Jeez, are you stupid or just ill-informed? Expats here working for overseas companies (1000s of them, mainly from Japan/Korea) have perfectly legal visas and work permits to apply for. And, if I may add, typically with a very handsome pay packet.

How does a person w/o Thai family, not retirement-age, obtain a permitted-stay based on a foreign-sourced income?  Even if with Thai family, I couldn't get it - with an embassy-letter AND proven foreign-xfers, because it wasn't from a 'state pension'.

 

If you mean those whose companies have subsidiaries here - and they work for those Thai subsidiaries - that is something else entirely.  We are discussing ways to INCREASE the foreign-sourced spending into Thailand.

 

12 minutes ago, Why Me said:

What the fork are you saying? That the loss of 40 mil tourists per year spending several $100s per day as has happened now might be offset by bums and self-supporting foreigners?

No one said anything about "bums" - just YOUR (and others) straw-man - an insult to many.  People with the 30K/mo income I suggested, are not "bums." 

 

Pre-covid, the "crackdown" on Tourists shuttered entire sois of businesses, and emptied thousands of condos.  I benefitted, because condo-rental rates dropped by half - but the Thais who lost their jobs did not.

 

Allowing those with moderate incomes to have legally permitted-stays in Thailand would HELP offset the damage done by both Covid, and the idiotic "crackdowns" that harmed many Thais/businesses, pre-covid.

 

12 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Look, if you can't afford the minimal finances for a proper visa in order to base yourself here, be it for work, marriage or retirement, then you don't belong. Of course, you can scramble for loopholes to hang in here but arguing that I am a richer poor guy than your own poor guy so let me stay is silly. Thailand has no obligation to anyone but its own citizens. 

As usual, the "You Can't" comes into it.  I have had multiples of the min-income to qualify for an extension of stay every time I have been denied on made-up bull - because corrupt-immigration wanted a thick brown envelope - did not care a whit if I "really qualified" under the rules.   But in this thread, we are discussing those who COULD come here, if the rules were changed.

 

This topic is precisely about what is most helpful to Thais.  If Thailand-Immigration cared about "its own citizens," it would not block the Vast Majority of Foreign-Spending which could be provided by those who don't "qualify" under their existing stay-classes. 

 

Most of those would not have Thai family, so would need to have 6x+ a Thai-salary AND be over 50, to qualify, as-is.  That eliminates the vast majority of potential foreign-spending.

[JackThompson]

21 minutes ago, Why Me said:

No it hasn't. It's been great. It's kept out those without the finances to afford a proper visa.

It's been terrible for all the Thais I know who lost their incomes.  Do they matter?  This is about them.  Anyone who paid off immigration via agents got to stay, in any case - so it solved nothing but to make good people put money in immigration's pockets, instead of Thai businesses and families.

 

Quote

These people, by definition, contribute little to the economy and often were up to no good. The less of this sort the better for Thailand and people like me who don't appreciate being tainted by the same brush.

They were "up to no good"?  Really?  Evidence?  The "bad guys" can get easy-extensions via Immigration's agent-partners.

 

So, the financial-hardships of Thais caused by the "crackdowns" is ok, as long as you don't get "tarred with the same brush" as those who are self-supporting, but with a little less income than you?

 

Quote

I have zero problem with someone on a marriage visa supporting their Thai family. But no, living on 10k b. a month with your Thai bride doesn't qualify you for a long-stay visa. And rightly so because Thailand (or any country for that matter) has no need for foreigners to add to their subsistence level demographic. If you insist on being an indigent married couple, take her back to your home country. At least as citizen you'll have access to all the support systems.

I suggested 30K/mo for those not married to a Thai - just having that income to spend here. 

 

Anyone not supporting a wife doesn't stay married long (in any country), so that problem takes care of itself, w/o immigration's involvement.  No recent "Kor Ror 2" (proves you are still married), and no marriage-based extension.

 

There is no 'welfare' support system for him here.  Ask the Thai-wife if she wants to move to his country for these 'benefits'.  What that really comes down to, is break up the family, because "Dad" doesn't meet your standards - as if she should not be the one to be the judge of that. 

 

Quote

Check out any non-shirthole country, east or west, for their retirement or marriage or long-stay tourist programs. The requirements are always multiples of the min cost of living. Heck, 400k b. lumpsum for a marriage visa here is generous.

We are discussing how to maximize foreign-spending into Thailand for the benefit of the Thai people.  I suggested 30K/mo - which is over 3x a lower-income Thai's salary - far more than many in the sticks, who used to earn more providing services for people with that income-range. 

 

But, if we are making comparisons, the PI is much easier for Tourists (can stay years on an initial entry).  In Cambodia, Vietnam - not nearly as difficult as here, in many/most cases.   Malaysia is more difficult, but a smaller portion of their citizens rely on foreigners' spent income. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by JackThompson

[Why Me]

40 minutes ago, FlyingThai said:

What Thailand should do is provide a reasonable immigration program such as MM2H in Malaysia.

Elite, which is doing a roaring trade. Thailand's more desirable than Malaysia.

 

41 minutes ago, FlyingThai said:

And another visa category for these digital nomads that are typing away on their computers all over

Smart visa. Or, if you are doing well enough a non-B.

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, Why Me said:

Smart visa. Or, if you are doing well enough a non-B.

Both only available if you work for a Thai-based company.

Edited September 7, 2020 by JackThompson

[geisha]

That will never be accepted , and would not be a good idea. But, the government now has time to re think the visa/ expat/ retirement system . Prepare for better days and streamline all the ridiculous rules . Other countries have easy visa systems online. I’m sure everything could be done online these days. Get the experts in,  and educated people to take care of managing the ecology side of tourism. Dreams, I know. Those countries that lag behind will loose out badly. 

[ubonjoe]

This topic has now run it course since it starting to turn into a bickering session again.

Topic now