Abolish all Tourist Visas and Requirements Until 2030

[donnacha]

Post-Covid (and that may not be for a long time yet), it would be good to see an intelligent sense of competition for the tourist dollar start to take hold in Thailand, Vietnam, The Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, and Indonesia.

To varying extents, all of those economies will struggle over the next decade or so. Given the unavoidable barriers to tourism already presented by higher airfares, struggling Western economies, and a general dampening of the desire to travel long distances, it is ridiculous for any tourism-dependent country to keep onerous rules, time limitations, and visa fees in place if they actually want to get their foreign income back up as close as possible to what it was before.

Our spending was always higher, and reached deeper into those economies than the governments were willing to admit. The Thai government counted hotel receipts and gift shop purchases, while completely ignoring the flow of money supporting families all over the country, but most crucially in the poorest districts.

By that measure, the Chinese coaches were always going to seem like a better deal, but the off-book money brought in by Western visitors was a far more vital pillar, propping up the sections of society that the Bangkok elites have never liked to think about. Even pre-Covid, the junta had been happily chipping away at that pillar but, now, their continued existence - their ability to remain unhung - may depend on not having those parts of Thai society collapse and spark upheaval throughout the rest. 

For the next decade, all ASEAN countries should eliminate all visa requirements for the citizens of developed countries. They should stamp visitors in for a year, and hope they stay spending money in the country for as long as possible. As long as you have not been blacklisted, you should be able to simply buy a one-way ticket, hop on the plane, and figure out your hotel once you arrive.

You should not have to waste a minute of your stay in an immigration office. All you should have to worry about is making sure you leave by the end of your 365 days.

They should end their obsession with largely imaginary 5-star visitors and accept that their actual business, for half a century, has been mass tourism. Lots of foreigners, some scruffy, but all bringing foreign currency into the country that would otherwise not be there.

This may sound crazy and is, of course, wishful thinking. It does, however, make sense. Whatever a country loses in visa and extension fees, it will gain in simple spending, with massively more visitors encouraged to come on a whim. The cognitive overhead of all the red tape and rules that have grown up around visiting these countries was already putting people off. That didn't matter so much during the boom years of travel. Millions upon millions on visitors kept coming no matter what they did.

Now, that has all changed. It is probably gone forever. Time to adapt or die.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by donnacha

[ezzra]

Ok, Thai will die before they will relinquish controls on who's is or going in their kingdom,by the same token no other country in the world allow free entry into their land and territories, so wishful thinking, but will not happen, ever...

[flyingtlger]

"Abolish all Tourist Visas and Requirements Until 2030"

Really?........Yeah Right!

 

 

[rott]

As soon as I see the word "should" I think why do they bother. Who do they think is interested in their opinion. 

[donnacha]

As I said, I know this is wishful thinking, but it would absolutely make sense when you consider the unavoidable barriers that will now be depressing visitor numbers.
 

3 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Ok, Thai will die before they will relinquish controls on who's is or going in their kingdom

Well, it could end up being a matter of life or death for the government. Even before Covid, there was widespread disdain for the mismanagement and evident greed of the generals, but it takes a lot before regular Thais will take a stand against the elites.

Now we are facing something something unprecedented. No matter how bad things got in the past, vast flows of foreign money kept washing into the country, some of reaching the parts of the nation that have long been abandoned by the elites.

What happens when you simply remove that familiar, always dependable flow?

If there has not yet seemed to be much of an effect, if the impact seems mostly contained to the tourist areas, it may simply be that the knock-on effects for the entire economy have not yet become clear. Without a doubt, however, a bad time is coming. It is possible that, in around six months time, the threat of Covid is going to seem far less risky than the loss of that income.
 

[donnacha]

5 minutes ago, rott said:

As soon as I see the word "should" I think why do they bother. Who do they think is interested in their opinion. 

Well, you responded, didn't you? ????

[tonray]

30 minutes ago, donnacha said:

For the next decade, all ASEAN countries should eliminate all visa requirements for the citizens of developed countries.

Just because your a citizen of a developed country does not mean you are a developed citizen. Why not just start the "Empty your Prisons: Thailand Extended Stay Program" ?

[donnacha]

12 minutes ago, ezzra said:

by the same token no other country in the world allow free entry into their land and territories

Just to be clear, I'm not saying completely free entry. Obviously, you have a blacklist. Obviously, I'm talking about the countries currently granted the visa waiver.

I'm also saying a one year entry, mostly because I reckon a lot of people will only be willing to risk traveling if they can stay for more than just a month or two. A year is not such a long time and, as I say, over the next decade or so, visitor dollars are going to be hard to win.

Pre-covid most visitors to Japan, Russia, the USA, Brazil, the EU, Australia, Jamaica etc could stay for 3 months without a visa, some countries such as Hong Kong and Mexico allowed you to stay for 180 days.

It is not a wild strength to suggest that 365 days would be the booster needed by the tourist industries of poorer, tourism-dependent Asian countries. It is a hail Mary pass that might just pump enough hard currency into their economies to prevent the deep, lasting damage of social upheaval.

 

[tomazbodner]

Do you really think Thai Elite gives a rat's donkey about you? How does your spending compete with billions and trillions of baht being moved around daily? It is really simple for upcountry folks - when money dries up, they'll move abroad, like Filipinas do. Don't for a nanosecond think that you matter. And no, your wet dream is not how it works here, or pretty much anywhere. When economy takes a downturn, foreigners will be blamed and entry restrictions will become stricter instead.

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, tonray said:

Just because your a citizen of a developed country does not mean you are a developed citizen. Why not just start the "Empty your Prisons: Thailand Extended Stay Program" ?

No idea what that means or what relevance it has to this discussion.

If what you mean is that every country has some psychos and nut-jobs, yes, of course. Those people could always enter Thailand without a visa, those are generally the people who end up on blacklists. You appear to be pointing at a problem that is inherent to ALL mass tourism.
 

[utalkin2me]

If Thailand did that more undesirable, cheap tourists would come. They would cause more problems and are probably more trouble than they are worth. 

[donnacha]

20 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Do you really think Thai Elite gives a rat's donkey about you?

Nope. Not at all.

 

20 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

Don't for a nanosecond think that you matter

Hmmm, yeah, pretty sure that is not what my post was saying. But thank you.

 

20 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

And no, your wet dream is not how it works here, or pretty much anywhere.

Okay, so, we'll just describe the massive opening up of the world to global tourism over the past half century as some sort of masturbatory delusion on my part.

 

20 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

When economy takes a downturn, foreigners will be blamed and entry restrictions will become stricter instead.

Well, now, hang on! If we're not allowed to speculate on my wet dream, how come you now get to indulge your victim-complex nightmare?

I think it is already be pretty clear to everyone in Thailand that the economic problems stem from a lack of foreigners, not from too many of them.

Look, almost all economic growth is driven by enlightened self-interest. We know how ignorant the Thai elites are but, even so, before the junta seized power, we watched successive Thai governments open up to global tourism and grow the economies. It NEVER had anything to do with liking us. It is called business and it has worked out pretty well for the elites. All the tightening restrictions around Western tourism and nationalistic nonsense from the junta came at a time when they had more tourism than they know what to do with. They could afford to be ass**l*s.

What I'm saying is that thing things have changed for them. Dramatically. And, despite this awful Covid period, it could end up at least having some silver linings.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by donnacha

[tomazbodner]

Very logical thinking. Something that is in very short supply in many countries for various reasons.

[donnacha]

11 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

If Thailand did that more undesirable, cheap tourists would come. They would cause more problems and are probably more trouble than they are worth. 

We can agree that making it too easy and cheap results in some pretty undesirable visitors. I remember being horrified in the 90s when the lower cost of air travel from the UK to Thailand, and the increasing costs of vacationing in Spain resulted in a sudden influx of football yobs to Pattaya. There was definitely a culture clash with the existing visitors, and some areas became a lot more violent and menacing.

Now, however, the airfare to Thailand is going to be much higher than before. People will generally have less money than before. Other factors such as possible quarantines, both when you arrive and when you return, will make long distance travel less attractive to most casual tourists.

So, with those new, unavoidable burdens in mind, the ASEAN countries should re-consider the additional burdens they voluntarily placed upon their own tourism industries during the recent boom years. 
 

Edited September 7, 2020 by donnacha

[Matzzon]

Dream on! It will be much easier for everyone to see that they meet requirements and have a valid visa or extension if they wish to stay in Thailand. Like same as before the Covid-19.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Matzzon

[mtls2005]

ASEAN countries already have mutual visa-free travel amongst members, ranging from 14 - 30 days.

 

ASEAN countries seem to offer visa-free, or evisa, or visa on arrival to many countries.

 

Thailand offers visa exemption for 64 countries, and visa on arrival for another 19.

 

What am I missing here?

 

I mean, other than returning to the (previous) status quo post-COVID?

 

Stamping in people from "developed" countries for a year raises all sorts of issues. No country would ever adopt such a policy.

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

45 minutes ago, donnacha said:

As I said, I know this is wishful thinking, but it would absolutely make sense when you consider the unavoidable barriers that will now be depressing visitor numbers.
 

Well, it could end up being a matter of life or death for the government. Even before Covid, there was widespread disdain for the mismanagement and evident greed of the generals, but it takes a lot before regular Thais will take a stand against the elites.

Now we are facing something something unprecedented. No matter how bad things got in the past, vast flows of foreign money kept washing into the country, some of reaching the parts of the nation that have long been abandoned by the elites.

What happens when you simply remove that familiar, always dependable flow?

If there has not yet seemed to be much of an effect, if the impact seems mostly contained to the tourist areas, it may simply be that the knock-on effects for the entire economy have not yet become clear. Without a doubt, however, a bad time is coming. It is possible that, in around six months time, the threat of Covid is going to seem far less risky than the loss of that income.
 

What a joke.

[tomazbodner]

30 minutes ago, donnacha said:

Now, however, the airfare to Thailand is going to be much higher than before. People will generally have less money than before.

First part I disagree. I think the remaining airlines will fight for every passenger with vastly discounted tickets. Even now, when planes are flying around half empty (or empty), price of tickets didn't go up, but remains more or less the same as what it was, sometimes even lower. They've found other stuff to do - lower frequency, switch plane models, move cargo around, etc. Tickets are unlikely to increase in prices much when demand picks up again due to stiff competition.

 

Now second part, which I absolutely agree with - is why all these Thai plans of opening the border and millions will come... is just not going to work. Most people around the World are in debt of one kind or another. It's credit card debt, student loan debt, house/condo loan debt, car loan debt... and then many lost a job or got a salary cut, or if business owner, lost or had severely affected income... Few people and companies have the reserves to pass this without severe scratches.

 

And when you think of these people, with debts mounting and future uncertain, would they really want to splash on a vacation at the other end of the World, quarantine or not, with 12+ hours of flying and mingling with thousands of people at the airports, risking infecting themselves on the way, and being left with possibly excruciatingly expensive treatment in another country? Probably not.

 

The only people that would go through hell to get to Thailand, in my view, would be those that have partners or family here. Thailand could just something about these and park away the tourism for a while. And once things calm down and people have a courage to get into aluminum tube with wings again, it should focus on quality tourism in limited numbers instead. For a few reasons, but mostly 2 - to have a sustainable model rather than destroying pristine environment for greed; and to lower country's dependence on tourism as a whole, since COVID is far from the last global interruption that we'll face in our lifetime.

Edited September 7, 2020 by tomazbodner

[Airalee]

Excellent post.  
 

You make a very salient point when referring to foreign money being injected into the economy.  The most recent focus on domestic tourism is little more than taking money out of one pocket and putting it in another.  Of course, it helps, but from what I saw on my recent 3 week visit to Krabi is that there just aren’t enough Thais to keep the tourism industry (hotels, restaurants, bars, tour guides, gift shops etc) afloat.  The Dusit D2 hotel where I stayed was probably the most popular among the few that were open but even then, I believe that they were operating on a negative cash flow.

 

I also believe that in addition to foreign tourism, they should also rethink their stance towards foreign expat retirees as I believe we contribute more to the economy (and in different areas) than many (even here on Thaivisa) would care to admit.  

[donnacha]

8 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Thailand offers visa exemption for 64 countries, and visa on arrival for another 19.

 

What am I missing here?

The visa restrictions in place since 2015 were based on a significantly different reality.

Yes, under the existing restrictions, post-Covid I will be able to enter Thailand without a visa. I will be able to stay for 30 days. Then, if I waste an afternoon traveling to an immigration office, I will be able to pay $60 to stay for an additional 30 days. Then I will have to leave.

When the return airfare (to Europe) was around €600, and when traveling was risk free, and when you weren't facing a 14-day quarantine on arrival in Thailand or upon your return, it all worked out roughly worth it.

Now we are looking at far higher airfares. We don't yet know how much higher, but possibly very high because the economics of air travel has been gutted. Currently, there is a requirement to quarantine at high cost for 14-days upon arrival in Thailand. There is a real risk of catching Covid on the plane, which may or may not cause damage, we don't really know. Then there is also the chance of getting stuck in quarantine upon your return to Europe if Thailand suddenly becomes listed.

All that for two months? Frankly, not worth it.

Don't forget, before this nationalist junta seized power, you could get a six-month tourist visa for around $50 and no need to show your tickets or any other supporting documentation. You could then extend it to a total of 9 months. Then you could generally fly to a neighboring country and apply for another one.

Thailand's success and popularity as a tourist destination was build upon the fact that it was easy to come here. Whatever reservations they had about some of the farangs coming in, those democratically elected governments wanted the money and they understood the long game.

I'm saying that, right now, the junta urgently need to somehow develop that sensibility, that grasp of cause and effect.

 

[Bender Rodriguez]

Logic does not work in this place

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, tomazbodner said:

I think the remaining airlines will fight for every passenger with vastly discounted tickets. Even now, when planes are flying around half empty (or empty), price of tickets didn't go up, but remains more or less the same as what it was, sometimes even lower. They've found other stuff to do - lower frequency, switch plane models, move cargo around, etc. Tickets are unlikely to increase in prices much when demand picks up again due to stiff competition.

I hope that I turn out to be wrong. I am basing this presumption on what people working in the industry have been predicting.

At the moment, even scanning prices six months or a year ahead, they seem uniformly high.

The previous prices were ridiculously low, particularly when you examined your receipts and saw how much was going in various taxes. In most cases, the amount the airline got flying me from Europe to Thailand was less than I would pay for a long rail journey in my country.

That was only possible because the airlines had finely calibrated their schedules and seat availability to maximize their use of each plane. Sure, some planes would have empty seats but, on average, they were remarkably successful.

That was thanks to finely honed algorithms based on a nice, long experience of how things were before. Many people are guessing that, post-Covid, many of the pricing tricks used to ensure those last few seats get filled will no longer be possible. When planning a journey involves so many variables and new risks, fewer people will be as tempted by last-minute bargains.

It is possible the new model may be to accept that less people will fly, and that 100% seat occupancy will be harder to achieve, so they will simply charge more.

Again, I sincerely hope this turns out to be wrong.
 

[Oldie]

Thailand has to avoid that it gets a home for foreign people without money. Such people would be a burden. And so it has visas already that allow a longer stay but where also the financial situation of the foreigners is checked regularly. 

[Rmac442]

A bit like 'the boat people' arriving in the UK .. no visa, no passport, what's the problem .. luxury coach awaits you sir to take you to your four star hotel !!

"You're here for how long sir?" .."indefinitely" .."ok"

 

[Pravda]

This is why western economies should stop doling out state pensions for anyone living in Thailand for more than 6 months. Why should western taxpayers support old men sponsoring Isaan families? I fully support pension freeze like Britain is doing and wish Canada did the same thing. 

 

I don't give a flying f about Thailand economy. 

[donnacha]

20 minutes ago, Oldie said:

Thailand has to avoid that it gets a home for foreign people without money. Such people would be a burden. And so it has visas already that allow a longer stay but where also the financial situation of the foreigners is checked regularly. 

Despite coming here for three decades, I never experienced this Thailand that requires no money.

Sure, I have appreciated being able to live here quite cheaply, but I always had to pay for my groceries, pay my rent, pay my bills in bars and restaurants. When I wanted to travel, I had to pay for my transport. During particularly expensive months, I had to buy socks.

I hear about all these terrible Westerners escaping from hospitals without paying their bills, but I have never understood how it happens. Whenever I have needed medical or dental help, I have always been asked to pay upon leaving. The pharmacies, too, prefer to receive payment.

There appears to be an odd, almost self-hating snobbery among some Westerners here that presumes that, for example, backpackers are somehow existing on air and stay in hostels are free. Some of the farangs you might presume spend the least often pour the most into the Thai exchequer simply by buying alcohol here.

Every foreigner you see here is bringing at least some foreign currency into the Thailand, and that is the game. They are creating employment. Their use of a particular restaurant is adding to the small amount of profit that keeps it in business.

Thailand used to be awake to this. Now, while Thailand slumbers, I see other countries such as the Bahamas, Croatia, Bermuda, and Georgia rushing foward with plans for year-long "remote worker" visas, because they have smart people in charge who, in a crisis situation, see the need for extraordinary TEMPORARY measures to prop up their economies until mainstream tourism recovers.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by donnacha

[Nout]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying completely free entry. Obviously, you have a blacklist. Obviously, I'm talking about the countries currently granted the visa waiver.

I'm also saying a one year entry, mostly because I reckon a lot of people will only be willing to risk traveling if they can stay for more than just a month or two. A year is not such a long time and, as I say, over the next decade or so, visitor dollars are going to be hard to win.

Pre-covid most visitors to Japan, Russia, the USA, Brazil, the EU, Australia, Jamaica etc could stay for 3 months without a visa, some countries such as Hong Kong and Mexico allowed you to stay for 180 days.

It is not a wild strength to suggest that 365 days would be the booster needed by the tourist industries of poorer, tourism-dependent Asian countries. It is a hail Mary pass that might just pump enough hard currency into their economies to prevent the deep, lasting damage of social upheaval.

 

You make sense

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, Pravda said:

This is why western economies should stop doling out state pensions for anyone living in Thailand for more than 6 months. Why should western taxpayers support old men sponsoring Isaan families?

Because they have spent their lives paying into the pot.

If they now wish to spend their money on Isaan families, good luck to them. Life is devastatingly short.
 

[ravip]

Abolish all Tourist Visas and Requirements Until 2030

 

Honestly, does anyone think that this is a good idea for any country to resort to, albeit the in flow of $$$.

 

[richard_smith237]

Op you have made valid points:

 

However, your idea of ‘visa Exempt entry’ of 1 years seems not to be aimed at Tourists, but at people wishing to live in Thailand.

 

Thailand needs to decide if it can handle people coming in to Thailand for longer who are probably going to be working illegally or who do not have sufficient means to meet the existing visa requirements. 

 

 

The current issues with incoming tourists primarily revolve around quarantine, insurance and Covid-19 tests (pre-flight and arrival). 

 

 

The following would make sense: 

- Visa Exempt for 90 days 

- Tourist Visa for 6 months

 

Another facet of staying here longer term is ‘insurance’ which has been a topic of discussion for a while.

However, insurance needs to be provided on a reasonable basis and not one whereby companies can extort people. 

- Those on Non-Immigrant Visas could pay into the Thai Social system (a fixe amount per year) and receive local treatment. 

- Those on Visa Exempt pay on arrival a fixed fee for their duration of stay which covers them for local treatment.

- Those on Tourist Visas pay a fee on Visa application which covers them for local treatment.

- Those who wish for private treatment pay for and show that (with minimum levels of inpatient cover).