Frozen Pensions

[billzant]

On behalf of British pensioners in Thailand, can the Consulate make representations to the British government to end frozen pensions by allowing uprating for all pensioners including those living in Thailand? Some pensioners with frozen pensions are given help by the governments in the countries they reside but Thailand is not likely to do this, so whilst the cost of living does not increase greatly through inflation (compared with some countries) UK pensioners living in Thailand still suffer with frozen pensions. I further understand that there has been a recent increase in UK pensioners, once living in Thailand, returning to live in the UK, for each of those returning pensioners the cost to  the British government is far more than increased costs  from uprating.

[andy8017]

Looking at the very low reaction to this post ,I must assume there are many ex-civil Servants out here that have lived on the tax payer all there so called "working" lives and are still doing so  on fat Government Pensions ?

 

[Lacessit]

IMO pensioners from any country in Thailand are doing much better than the many people here and overseas that have lost their incomes due to COVID-19, so perhaps one should keep quiet about the subject.

[DaveCW]

It does not seem morally fair to have taken contributions from now pensioners all their working lives, and now that they are living outside of the UK have lost the right to uprating. If it were an insurance companies or banks doing something like this, there would be widespread claims of miss-selling. The UK Government have openly confirmed that this is simply down to cost, nothing more. But, as others have said the overall cost (to UK Government) of someone living overseas as opposed to living in the UK is a lot lower when factoring in the fact that they will not be using NHS, care services etc etc.

 

As for folk losing jobs in the current climate, whilst this is indeed sad and unfortunate, it is very far from the point and nothing to do with putting this obvious wrong, right. What about those who may have retired here 20-30 years ago, their pension has never increased in that time. Do you have any sympathy for them, clearly not.

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, DaveCW said:

 

 

As for folk losing jobs in the current climate, whilst this is indeed sad and unfortunate, it is very far from the point and nothing to do with putting this obvious wrong, right. What about those who may have retired here 20-30 years ago, their pension has never increased in that time. Do you have any sympathy for them, clearly not.

I'm Australian, the government indexes our pensions. Having said that, Centrelink does have other forms of mongrel for those living overseas. Such as losing about 20% of the single pension if one marries a foreign national.

People who retired here 20 or 30 years ago, assuming pensions were frozen then, IMO failed to plan properly. If it's a matter of shifting goalposts, yes, they have my sympathy.

[fishtank]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

IMO pensioners from any country in Thailand are doing much better than the many people here and overseas that have lost their incomes due to COVID-19, so perhaps one should keep quiet about the subject.

Why?

[billd766]

55 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I'm Australian, the government indexes our pensions. Having said that, Centrelink does have other forms of mongrel for those living overseas. Such as losing about 20% of the single pension if one marries a foreign national.

People who retired here 20 or 30 years ago, assuming pensions were frozen then, IMO failed to plan properly. If it's a matter of shifting goalposts, yes, they have my sympathy.

 

I get fed up with seeing this question coming up time and time again. If the worlds financial "experts" can't plan more than a month or two ahead using all the information available what chance do you think most of us have of getting it right?

 

Did you see Covid coming and the disaster that has turned out?

 

I imagine that you are planning your retirement based on age 30 with full employment until you retire? Now you may be furloughed and perhaps you may have lost your job, so what happens to your retirement plan now?

 

I planned properly in 2002. Who in 2002 could see as far as the 2008 crash, or the 2016 Brexit referendum, Covid, or the strength of the Thai baht nowadays?

 

Can you, or anybody accurately predict for example the forex rate between the GBP and the THB in one years time from today? All you can do is to do the best that you can with the information that you have at the time of your planning and hope that it isn't too far out year on year, and that there will be no financial or serious medical problems worldwide in the next 30 or 40 years. 

 

What will happen to your retirement plan if there is a serious war between the USA and China, or perhaps an all out war in the Arab Gulf and the price of oil triples?

[evadgib]

Successive British Ambassadors, DHM's and/or first secretaries have made abundantly clear that they're not in the slightest bit interested in this anomaly & in most cases their reaction when asked has been somewhere between complete indifference & 'serves 'em right!'

 

(The latter wasn't exactly obvious but it is exactly what one of the above meant...)

 

HTH

 

[david555]

5 hours ago, andy8017 said:

Looking at the very low reaction to this post ,I must assume there are many ex-civil Servants out here that have lived on the tax payer all there so called "working" lives and are still doing so  on fat Government Pensions ?

 

Not really …, but i think   many other country's members on TVF and do not freeze their nationals pensions ….at least my country does not , and on 10 years it made a reasonable upgrade / compensation for rising living costs  …..

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I get fed up with seeing this question coming up time and time again. If the worlds financial "experts" can't plan more than a month or two ahead using all the information available what chance do you think most of us have of getting it right?

 

Did you see Covid coming and the disaster that has turned out?

 

I imagine that you are planning your retirement based on age 30 with full employment until you retire? Now you may be furloughed and perhaps you may have lost your job, so what happens to your retirement plan now?

 

I planned properly in 2002. Who in 2002 could see as far as the 2008 crash, or the 2016 Brexit referendum, Covid, or the strength of the Thai baht nowadays?

 

Can you, or anybody accurately predict for example the forex rate between the GBP and the THB in one years time from today? All you can do is to do the best that you can with the information that you have at the time of your planning and hope that it isn't too far out year on year, and that there will be no financial or serious medical problems worldwide in the next 30 or 40 years. 

 

What will happen to your retirement plan if there is a serious war between the USA and China, or perhaps an all out war in the Arab Gulf and the price of oil triples?

I think you are confusing me with a much younger person. I've been retired for 12 years.

No-one can plan for the black swan events you have mentioned. Having said that, IMO depending on a government pension alone when retiring to Thailand is extremely foolish. Yes, I get a government pension, but it is a part pension. I have capital back in Australia which is earning income as well. Even if it stopped paying interest entirely, it will last beyond my death.

I also have the ability to adjust my current rate of expenditure downwards, others don't have that luxury.

I spent six months researching various countries before settling on Thailand as my retirement destination. Permit me to doubt a majority of people take that long.

 

[Lacessit]

7 hours ago, evadgib said:

Successive British Ambassadors, DHM's and/or first secretaries have made abundantly clear that they're not in the slightest bit interested in this anomaly & in most cases their reaction when asked has been somewhere between complete indifference & 'serves 'em right!'

 

(The latter wasn't exactly obvious but it is exactly what one of the above meant...)

 

HTH

 

I think it was BMT that informed me the British did not rule the world by being nice.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I spent six months researching various countries before settling on Thailand as my retirement destination. Permit me to doubt a majority of people take that long.

I came here on a 2 week holiday from a nasty divorce ....... ended up staying 11 years (2 year gap in the middle).

No thought or planning from me,

...... and the divorce put paid to my financial planning, reducing my 36Kgbp/year pension at today's rate significantly.

 

Back in the UK, they still don't know I've left, it's not their business.

[billd766]

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I think you are confusing me with a much younger person. I've been retired for 12 years.

No-one can plan for the black swan events you have mentioned. Having said that, IMO depending on a government pension alone when retiring to Thailand is extremely foolish. Yes, I get a government pension, but it is a part pension. I have capital back in Australia which is earning income as well. Even if it stopped paying interest entirely, it will last beyond my death.

I also have the ability to adjust my current rate of expenditure downwards, others don't have that luxury.

I spent six months researching various countries before settling on Thailand as my retirement destination. Permit me to doubt a majority of people take that long.

 

I wasn't pointing a finger at you but at a few other posters over the years.

I spent over 5 years working in Thailand and met by current wife here, so I knew that I would retire here.

 

I get a state pension and 2 other pensions from the UK and was doing very well until the forex rate caught me out. Now we are doing OK but could do with a better forex rate.

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I came here on a 2 week holiday from a nasty divorce ....... ended up staying 11 years (2 year gap in the middle).

No thought or planning from me,

...... and the divorce put paid to my financial planning, reducing my 36Kgbp/year pension at today's rate significantly.

 

Back in the UK, they still don't know I've left, it's not their business.

Are you saying your pension is not frozen, because the government thinks you are still in the UK? I don't know how that works, don't think I want to.

I must admit I did not plan on having a GF here; however, it's worked out well.

[jayboy]

18 hours ago, evadgib said:

Successive British Ambassadors, DHM's and/or first secretaries have made abundantly clear that they're not in the slightest bit interested in this anomaly & in most cases their reaction when asked has been somewhere between complete indifference & 'serves 'em right!'

 

(The latter wasn't exactly obvious but it is exactly what one of the above meant...)

 

HTH

 

 

That is not my understanding.If the subject is raised with them Embassy staff correctly point out that the matter is nothing to do with them.I am sure they feel nothing but sympathy.

 

The hard political truth, reinforced by events over the last 10 months, is that there will never unfortunately be any inflation based uplift.

 

The realtiy is - and this is my view - any retired person who is mainly reliant on his UK state pension probably should not be in Thailand at all.

 

 

[DaveCW]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:46 PM, Lacessit said:

I think you are confusing me with a much younger person. I've been retired for 12 years.

No-one can plan for the black swan events you have mentioned. Having said that, IMO depending on a government pension alone when retiring to Thailand is extremely foolish. Yes, I get a government pension, but it is a part pension. I have capital back in Australia which is earning income as well. Even if it stopped paying interest entirely, it will last beyond my death.

I also have the ability to adjust my current rate of expenditure downwards, others don't have that luxury.

I spent six months researching various countries before settling on Thailand as my retirement destination. Permit me to doubt a majority of people take that long.

 

I think many are missing the point here - Yes I agree one has to plan - I have a occupational pension - and will (hopefully) someday have a state pension as well as investments (well I will have when I get back into the market). So the state pension being the bonus - The OBVIOUS point here is the fact that this "non-uprating" rule actually exists, and many are basically being seen off.  Now one can be smug about their own personal circumstances and their fantastic planning abilities, but again, thats not the point here. As mentioned, folk have paid tax all their working lives. Indeed many on this forum may have paid very high levels of tax and now have lost some of the benefit of that, whilst seeing others who have (shall we say) a lesser work history continue to get the benefit of state pension up-rating, (as well as all the other benefits - Pension Credit, NHS etc). Its a matter of fairness in my opinion.

[theoldgit]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:38 PM, andy8017 said:

Looking at the very low reaction to this post ,I must assume there are many ex-civil Servants out here that have lived on the tax payer all there so called "working" lives and are still doing so  on fat Government Pensions ?

 

 

I think there are very few responses to this question because I suspect that most people are aware that it is outside of the remit of Consular staff to make representations to the British government to end frozen pensions, and of course the subject has been done to death elsewhere.
I imagine that there are a number of retired Civil Servants on this forum, most of who were doing pretty mundane jobs and supporting their fellow taxpayers rather than living off them, I doubt that many are on, what you describe as, "fat Government Pensions", apart from myself.

[OJAS]

On 10/27/2020 at 9:53 AM, theoldgit said:

it is outside of the remit of Consular staff to make representations to the British government to end frozen pensions

 

This particular statement IMHO illustrates perfectly the frustrations which many of us experience in our dealings with the collective HMG machine. There is  no-one in HMG who is prepared to fight our corner in the same way as in the case of various vested groups back in the UK. Things have, I think, been excacerbated by the concept of "joined-up government", which the likes of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and John Prescott were enthusiatically espousing 10-20 years ago, having now been effectively ditched by their successors, with each component part of HMG (in particular the Embassy, IPC and HMPO in our case) now seemingly operating under strict instructions to focus exclusively on the responsibilities of its own particular silo, with blinkers firmly fixed so as to avoid the possibility of their focus being diverted into areas which do not fall within their purview.

[blackcab]

A post has been removed.

[shackleton]

I can recall the times this has been mentioned through the years on Thai Visa

plus the surveys and if I recall years ago there was a  petition where you put your name on to the British Government requesting the frozen pensions were lifted for retirees in Thailand 

Flogging a dead horse seems to be the answer as its not going to happen

[DaveCW]

As the UK Government seem happy to display the fact that they have no honor, nor respect for UK pensioners on the international stage. It's welcoming to note at least the Australian and Canadian Governments are happy to remind them of the fact.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/british-mps-rally-support-from-canada-and-australia-to-end-disgrace-and-shame-of-frozen-expat-pensions/ar-BB1bY6IP?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

[billzant]

The UK government struck a deal over Europe so no reciprocal agreements excuse does not now apply. The UK government are just taking advantage of old people abroad who have no powers as DaveCW says no honur no respect.

[billzant]

New APPG report - what little hope we have it is through these tokens:-

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ffrozenbritishpensions.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F12%2F2020-APPG-report.pdf%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2I9SDpSELl0naasPhnGWzL7Tb8-KOpFJ0QW6vxHTL40cTJe_9DjUlVGaM&h=AT3IN6OSqgNV4lQiSJ2WJ_fqy-E8vNBLIGHI9_1XfFUhhQC_NKcH6PYqzZ7WiM7BftaKvpx8T7icvuU7zqZD4OEmpPk4HRWVlHCBYMosPSUyVPejRbHz801ZMkGpU1tIAQ&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT04uV5A7LLb0sps0H2MVBBbZmhwnvyd8MPmSZYmIjZ25f_r5In0XsYgyszMtKsJ9jgyxcJjd3kUrtebsRHdps15PfnHzjfqybF_gdgMLbXhhVm3USjOpQBwAlc8IHg0CWZ1

[billzant]

Shorter link - https://frozenbritishpensions.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2020-APPG-report.pdf

[DaveCW]

@billzant Many thanks for the link - A good read and report. It is obvious to all with a modicum of sense that there is no justification for this discriminatory, and dishonourable policy. It would have been good if the authors and researchers had asked the FCDO to spread the survey, I'm sure they may have got more evidence and from a wider spectrum of those effected by this policy, that said the examples illustrated, are probably universal.

 

It is also odd that a Government in the UK cannot fund the uprating, but can spend billions on furlough schemes, and tax breaks for big business etc etc.

 

As a veteran myself, I have sent your link to various contacts I have within the veterans charitable community, as I'm sure they are unaware as to the degree of hardship and suffering that going on in regard to former ex service folk.

[bkk6060]

The UK has the worst state pension in the developed world- in 2016 it was only worth 29% of average income. It is striking how much less that is than other countries: the EU average is 70.5% meaning that UK pensions receive more than two times less than comparable countries.

 

 

I am sure glad I did not live and retire in the UK.

Terrible pensions anyone ever ask what the heck they have done with all the money?

A total embarrassment..

[MartinL]

On 12/16/2020 at 5:46 PM, DaveCW said:

As the UK Government seem happy to display the fact that they have no honor, nor respect for UK pensioners on the international stage. It's welcoming to note at least the Australian and Canadian Governments are happy to remind them of the fact.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/british-mps-rally-support-from-canada-and-australia-to-end-disgrace-and-shame-of-frozen-expat-pensions/ar-BB1bY6IP?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

 

From this report, there are 510,00 UK pensioners on a frozen pension. Of these, 150,000 are in Canada, 230,000 in Australia. That leaves 130,000 in 'other countries'. Of that 130,000, 63,000 are in NZ which seems to be behaving very well towards those receiving both NZ and UK frozen pensions, in that it tops-up pensions where necessary. There might be still more 'frozen pensioners' in NZ who don't also receive a NZ pension.

 

My fear is that UK government might grant annual uprating in these countries in an effort to appease their governments. That'd still leave 67,000, including those of us in Thailand, still 'out in the cold' with no foreign government bringing pressure to bear as Canada and Oz are doing. 

 

That would just compound the injustice of the UK government policy. 

 

Now that UK is seeking Free Trade Agreements of its own around the world, perhaps some countries will include the annual uprating of pensions in any agreement. Unlikely to apply to Thailand, though.

 

But isn't it shameful that we should have to rely on foreign governments to seek to achieve, on behalf of foreigners, something that the UK government refuses to implement ???? ????  

 

[luckyluke]

13 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Terrible pensions anyone ever ask what the heck they have done with all the money?

It seems that the different U.K. governments had/has other priorities than a decent pension for their elderly/veterans.

This is a pure intern U.K. matter.

[Rimmer]

An off topic rant has been removed

[p414]

On 9/8/2020 at 6:39 PM, billzant said:

On behalf of British pensioners in Thailand, can the Consulate make representations to the British government to end frozen pensions by allowing uprating for all pensioners including those living in Thailand? Some pensioners with frozen pensions are given help by the governments in the countries they reside but Thailand is not likely to do this, so whilst the cost of living does not increase greatly through inflation (compared with some countries) UK pensioners living in Thailand still suffer with frozen pensions. I further understand that there has been a recent increase in UK pensioners, once living in Thailand, returning to live in the UK, for each of those returning pensioners the cost to  the British government is far more than increased costs  from uprating.

we took this to the court of human rights many years ago....

[europe ]  the result...'They decided that the pension we all paid for ,for more than 40 years in my case is ...'A GOVERNMENT BENEFIT]'      ..As such I guess that means the government can even stop any payment..