คลองแขวงกลั่น

[Maestro]

Google Maps has คลองแขวงกลั่น as Khlong Kwaeng Klan. Am I right in thinking that it should be Khlong Khwaeng Klan. I thought I would ask here before editing it on the map.

 

[Pattaya46]

I will not choose the right transliteration spelling,

but:

[FritsSikkink]

Where do you get the "H" from?

 

[scammed]

2 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Where do you get the "H" from?

 

english speaking folks like to throw in an 'h' here and there for good measure, same with the word 'the'

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Where do you get the "H" from?

 

 

From the Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_General_System_of_Transcription

 

http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2542/D/037/11.PDF

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

I will not choose the right transliteration spelling,

but:

 

Thank you for this image. It seems to be the sign at the railway station. Perhaps it is from this sign that Google Maps took KHLONG KWAENG KLAN, although I thought that they only read the road signs but there may well be a road sign somewhere with this same transcription.

[Maestro]

However, Google Maps does have 

• Khwaeng Klan Bon ( a canal)
• Ban Khwaeng Klan School
• Ban Khwaeng Klan Health Center

 

Since the  State Railway of Thailand used Kwaeng on the sign for the station, I won't suggest to Google Maps to change it to Khwaeng.

 

[carlyai]

I think you will see these sign inconsistencies around. Have a look at how Pattaya is written in different signs.

[Wongkitlo]

On 10/12/2020 at 3:19 AM, Maestro said:

 

From the Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_General_System_of_Transcription

 

http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2542/D/037/11.PDF

They should really update this. I don't think any Thais really pronounce ก as K. I wonder if whoever did  this could really speak or read English properly. 

[johng]

Yes a total mess   for example Na-Jomtien   spelt 4 different ways  on "official" road signs

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KeeTua]

2 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

They should really update this. I don't think any Thais really pronounce ก as K.

Most farangs, even those that have lived here for many years, pronounce the common word เกาะ (island) incorrectly because they get used to seeing the transliteration 'koh' which is not even close to the correct pronunciation. I'm not sure how I'd transliterate it to get closer to the correct pronunciation but I'd at least start off with a 'G' for the first letter.

[RichCor]

Quote

Most farangs, even those that have lived here for many years, pronounce the common word เกาะ (island) incorrectly because they get used to seeing the transliteration 'koh' which is not even close to the correct pronunciation.

 

...now with an annoying video guide example:

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

3 hours ago, johng said:

Yes a total mess   for example Na-Jomtien   spelt 4 different ways  on "official" road signs

And none follows the "official" RTGS rules:

spelling that is almost unknown: Chom Thian, as well known as: Phatthaya

Very rarely you find one of these.

The dominance of English language has led RTGS ad absurd-um in many cases.

"j" for "ch", "aw" for "a", "oo" for "u", "or" for "o" -> for the evergreen joke of "my girlfriend porn".

At the sign of our local school they use "j" as well as "ch" for identical Thai syllables.

etc.etc.

 

[KhunBENQ]

4 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

I wonder if whoever did  this could really speak or read English properly. 

Don't know. But it was created in the 19th(?) century by a German linguist (some revisions done). It's based on latin languages with "proper" vowels e.g.

Neither serving the English with their "special" kind of vowels (vowel shift) nor attempting to create a transliteration that would allow you to pronounce correctly.

The target was to have very simple rules to transcribe Thai script to latin script.

No way to create simple latin script for correct pronounciation.

 

If you want to change: do a complete language reform like the Vietnamese. Have you seen how their "latin" script for the seven(!) tones looks like?

But be warned: even field marshal Phibunsongkhram (the fuhrer ) in the 1940/50s failed with this attempt.

[Wongkitlo]

16 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Don't know. But it was created in the 19th(?) century by a German linguist (some revisions done). It's based on latin languages with "proper" vowels e.g.

Neither serving the English with their "special" kind of vowels (vowel shift) nor attempting to create a transliteration that would allow you to pronounce correctly.

The target was to have very simple rules to transcribe Thai script to latin script.

No way to create simple latin script for correct pronounciation.

 

If you want to change: do a complete language reform like the Vietnamese. Have you seen how their "latin" script for the seven(!) tones looks like?

But be warned: even field marshal Phibunsongkhram (the fuhrer ) in the 1940/50s failed with this attempt.

I am impressed with Stu Jay Ray's work. He has traced the Thai consonants from Sanskrit and  has organized the Thai consonants as a map of the mouth. It is the first time I have understood why there are so many of the same gaw gai consonants..

 

[KhunBENQ]

5 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I am impressed with Stu Jay Ray's work.

That looks like serious stuff...

 

[Maestro]

7 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

They should really update this. I don't think any Thais really pronounce ก as K. I wonder if whoever did  this could really speak or read English properly. 

 

The Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS) is not intended as a pronunciation guide, not for Thais, not for English speakers, not for speakers of any other language.

 

It is important always to note the difference between a pronunciation guide and a transcription system.

[JHicks]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

11 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

They should really update this. I don't think any Thais really pronounce ก as K. I wonder if whoever did  this could really speak or read English properly. 

 

The Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS) is not intended as a pronunciation guide, not for Thais, not for English speakers, not for speakers of any other language.

 

It is important always to note the difference between a pronunciation guide and a transcription system.

 

I'd describe it as more of a spectrum. At one extreme you have pure transliteration systems that only care about representing the original characters, and not at all about the pronunciation. RTGS is not like that. If you take ด as an example, it uses d in initial position and t in final position. The only reason for doing that is to reflect the pronunciation, so RTGS is not right at the transliteration extreme of the spectrum.

 

ก is not really a g. It's not the k in Kate either, but the k in Kate would be RTGS kh. The phonetic difference between kh and ก is that ก is unaspirated. The h in kh is there to represent aspiration, so it makes sense to take it off and use k by itself. It's the same for ต / ท (t / th) and ป / ผ (p / ph), so this gives you a fairly consistent system.

 

We wouldn't think of using d for ต because the existence of ด makes it obvious that ต isn't really a d. Similarly, we wouldn't think of using b for ป because the existence of บ makes it obvious that ป is not really a b. It's a lot harder to notice that ก is not really a g, because Thai doesn't have a true g to compare it to.

 

The IPA letter for ก is k.

 

Overall I'd say that k is technically accurate and more logical, but much more likely to be misunderstood and pronounced as kh. G would be less accurate but also less likely to be misunderstood, so you can still make a case for it.

[kokesaat]

Transcription guide/pronunciation guide, IMO Thailand doesn't have one.   At least not one that's adhered to throughout the country.  I lived in Taiwan for 3 years after studying Chinese for a year.  Wade Giles was the standard there......everywhere.  My Chinese training prepared me for Pinyin as is the standard in the mainland.  I'd reckon that I could pronounce nearly any Chinese word accurately enough, Pinyin or Wade Giles, less the tones.

 

Thailand is a completely different animal.  When I finally buckled down and began to learn to read Thai, I purposely avoided the English translation on signs as it seemed most of the time, the English was not close to the Thai pronunciation.  If you're going to go through the torture of learning the RTGS system (which disregards tones and vowel lengths), you may as well go through the torture of learning to read Thai script.  

 

A side story.......before I learned to read Thai, I took a taxi on a short visit to Bangkok.  I asked the driver to take me to Rama Rd.  All the road signs say "Rama Rd".......but the driver didn't know what I was saying.  When I later discovered that the name of the road is actually Phra Ram พระราม it was a different world.   Ubon/Udon, similar in spelling but pronounced much differently.

 

 

[Wongkitlo]

11 hours ago, JHicks said:

 

I'd describe it as more of a spectrum. At one extreme you have pure transliteration systems that only care about representing the original characters, and not at all about the pronunciation. RTGS is not like that. If you take ด as an example, it uses d in initial position and t in final position. The only reason for doing that is to reflect the pronunciation, so RTGS is not right at the transliteration extreme of the spectrum.

 

ก is not really a g. It's not the k in Kate either, but the k in Kate would be RTGS kh. The phonetic difference between kh and ก is that ก is unaspirated. The h in kh is there to represent aspiration, so it makes sense to take it off and use k by itself. It's the same for ต / ท (t / th) and ป / ผ (p / ph), so this gives you a fairly consistent system.

 

We wouldn't think of using d for ต because the existence of ด makes it obvious that ต isn't really a d. Similarly, we wouldn't think of using b for ป because the existence of บ makes it obvious that ป is not really a b. It's a lot harder to notice that ก is not really a g, because Thai doesn't have a true g to compare it to.

 

The IPA letter for ก is k.

 

Overall I'd say that k is technically accurate and more logical, but much more likely to be misunderstood and pronounced as kh. G would be less accurate but also less likely to be misunderstood, so you can still make a case for it.

can understand what you are saying and am sure you are right. I just think it is crazy using a system which people don't understand. I used to catch the van to Central Pattaya road and say Pattaya Klang as the sign says but the drivers don't understand. When I learnt to read I would say Pattaya Glang with a guttural g and a nasal ng and they understood. Same as the listing in the topic. I would bet if you told a taxi driver  Khlong Khwaeng Klan there's a good chance hewouldnt understand. If you said Klong Khwaeng Glan with the plain K in Klong, aspirated KH for Khwaeng and guttural G in Glan  you would have a better chance.