Education Visa Renewal Problem.

[TomBrown]

Hi,

I currently hold a Multi-Entry Education Visa which expires on the 5th of May 2007. I entered Thailand (where I currently am) in March and therefore have a 3 month stay until June 2007.

Today I attempted to gain a one year extension on my current visa (before it runs out on 5th May) at the Thai Immagration in Bangkok with the following, but was refused;

* Completed TM7 form (Downloaded from the Internet, but notice is different pretty much in layout only to the ones at the Immagration office and the examples there).

* Passport sized photos

* Original Passport

* Signed supporting letter on headed paper from the private education establishment (not a school or university)

* Photocopy of Name / Date page

* Visa stamped page

* Departure card / page

* Original Multi entry Education Visa page

* And of course the 1,900 Baht fee.

Eventually after speaking with a very unhelpful person at the 'correct' desk, I was told that I needed to have a Work Permit and an Education Certificate in addition to my current paperwork. This was news to me and also to the place where I am learning. The lady at the desk said that I have to go to the UK Embessy which I will do this afternoon, but suspect that I will not get any further. By the way, the place where I am learning have suggested that I can do some work for them, but at present this has not been properly confirmed. Oh, the learning is MuayThai, which is what my current visa (gained in the UK) is for.

1. So, am I wrong in thinking I can get an one year Education visa Extension to my current one year Ed visa?

2. Would I be better to let the currect visa expire and go to a neadby country (any suggestions?) to apply for a new one year Education Visa? My flight ticket back to the UK is set for Jan 2008.

3.1. My girlfriend has recently given birth to our first child, would I be better leaving the Education visa and applying for something that suits supporting my child?

3.2 If I finish with the Education visa, will this affect my situation for a work permit? I read on one of the discussions that an employer prefers a person with an Education visa as they don't need to employ four Thais to every farang?

Thanks,

Tom.

[TomBrown]

Hi,

I currently hold a Multi-Entry Education Visa which expires on the 5th of May 2007. I entered Thailand (where I currently am) in March and therefore have a 3 month stay until June 2007.

Today I attempted to gain a one year extension on my current visa (before it runs out on 5th May) at the Thai Immagration in Bangkok with the following, but was refused;

* Completed TM7 form (Downloaded from the Internet, but notice is different pretty much in layout only to the ones at the Immagration office and the examples there).

* Passport sized photos

* Original Passport

* Signed supporting letter on headed paper from the private education establishment (not a school or university)

* Photocopy of Name / Date page

* Visa stamped page

* Departure card / page

* Original Multi entry Education Visa page

* And of course the 1,900 Baht fee.

Eventually after speaking with a very unhelpful person at the 'correct' desk, I was told that I needed to have a Work Permit and an Education Certificate in addition to my current paperwork. This was news to me and also to the place where I am learning. The lady at the desk said that I have to go to the UK Embessy which I will do this afternoon, but suspect that I will not get any further. By the way, the place where I am learning have suggested that I can do some work for them, but at present this has not been properly confirmed. Oh, the learning is MuayThai, which is what my current visa (gained in the UK) is for.

1. So, am I wrong in thinking I can get an one year Education visa Extension to my current one year Ed visa?

2. Would I be better to let the currect visa expire and go to a neadby country (any suggestions?) to apply for a new one year Education Visa? My flight ticket back to the UK is set for Jan 2008.

3.1. My girlfriend has recently given birth to our first child, would I be better leaving the Education visa and applying for something that suits supporting my child?

3.2 If I finish with the Education visa, will this affect my situation for a work permit? I read on one of the discussions that an employer prefers a person with an Education visa as they don't need to employ four Thais to every farang?

Thanks,

Tom.

The details of the document that the Thai Immigration gave me today are;

---------------------

7.20 Required documentation for a applying visa extension in the case of working for a public charity organization, private foreign organization, foundation, association, foreign Chamber of Commerce, or Thailand Federation of industries:

1. Application form T.M.7 with one 4x6 cm. Photograph and 1,900 Baht Visa Fee. ( I Have this completed already)

2. Copy of the applicant's passport ( I have this completed already)

3. Confirmation letter and request from that organization (I think this is the letter you done for me?)

4. List of the alien employees working in that organization.

5. Confirmation letter and request issued by the chief of the government agency concerned.

---------------------

I did argue the point that I was not working, so why should I have to get this additional stuff. Apparently it has to be done regardless of working or not. Well that is what they claimed anyway, and they're not moving from it unfortunately.

Is this really the case now?

Thanks,

Tom.

[Maestro]

I was told that I needed to have a Work Permit and an Education Certificate in addition to my current paperwork. This was news to me and also to the place where I am learning.

7.20 Required documentation for a applying visa extension in the case of working

Tom, from the information you were given by Immigration it appears that you applied for an extension for the reason of working, yet in your post you refer to your place of learning, not your place of work.

For an extension for working, you need the documents mentioned by Immigration. For learning, you obviously do not need a work permit.

The educational certificate is needed only by teachers, I believe, and perhaps also by other professionals with a high-level job title.

Regarding the requirement for a certain number of Thai employees for every foreign employee, I believe it makes no difference what category of non-immigrant visa you have, except that with a retirement visa (non-OA) or an extension for retirement the Labour Department may not grant a work permit.

--------------

Maestro

[TomBrown]

I was told that I needed to have a Work Permit and an Education Certificate in addition to my current paperwork. This was news to me and also to the place where I am learning.

7.20 Required documentation for a applying visa extension in the case of working

Tom, from the information you were given by Immigration it appears that you applied for an extension for the reason of working, yet in your post you refer to your place of learning, not your place of work.

For an extension for working, you need the documents mentioned by Immigration. For learning, you obviously do not need a work permit.

The educational certificate is needed only by teachers, I believe, and perhaps also by other professionals with a high-level job title.

Regarding the requirement for a certain number of Thai employees for every foreign employee, I believe it makes no difference what category of non-immigrant visa you have, except that with a retirement visa (non-OA) or an extension for retirement the Labour Department may not grant a work permit.

--------------

Maestro

Thanks Maestro,

That's right; I am only learning, am not a teacher, am not working for the company, and have told them all that several times, but yet they were insistent that I still needed to have the listed details 'regardless of what learning I was doing' was what the lady said. I've gone back to the company who are providing the learning, but I suspect that I am getting the run around from Immigration. Will see what the company says. Possibly I should get in touch with Sunbelt and see what they can do.

Thanks again,

Tom.

[Maestro]

The details of the document that the Thai Immigration gave me today are;

---------------------

7.20 Required documentation for a applying visa extension in the case of working for a public charity organization, private foreign organization, foundation, association, foreign Chamber of Commerce, or Thailand Federation of industries:

I see that Immigration gave you the requirements for working in a charity organisation as per clause 7.20 of the Police Order 606/2549.

Perhaps your Immigration office understands numbers better than words. Tell them that you are applying under clause 7.8 of the aforementioned Police order:

--------------

Maestro

[TomBrown]

The details of the document that the Thai Immigration gave me today are;

---------------------

7.20 Required documentation for a applying visa extension in the case of working for a public charity organization, private foreign organization, foundation, association, foreign Chamber of Commerce, or Thailand Federation of industries:

I see that Immigration gave you the requirements for working in a charity organisation as per clause 7.20 of the Police Order 606/2549.

Perhaps your Immigration office understands numbers better than words. Tell them that you are applying under clause 7.8 of the aforementioned Police order:

--------------

Maestro

Thanks for the attached details Maestro.

I'll take that along to the Bangkok Immigration tomorrow.

I do have one question though because I am currently on a 1 year Ed visa which ends in a few days time. Would this clause 7.8 be applicable as it states '... but shall not be more than 1 year at a time'?

Thanks,

Tom.

[Maestro]

I am currently on a 1 year Ed visa which ends in a few days time. Would this clause 7.8 be applicable as it states '... but shall not be more than 1 year at a time'?

Yes, it is applicable to you. “At a time” means that if you showed evidence that you registered for study for 17 months, for example, you would be given an extension of maximum 12 months.

Now that your first extension is coming to an end and if you are still enrolled for study, you can apply for a new extension with the confirmation from the school.

--------------

Maestro

[p_brownstone]

By the way, the place where I am learning have suggested that I can do some work for them, but at present this has not been properly confirmed.

Just wondering why you thought it necessary to include that comment in your original Post; which then leads me to wonder if you - perhaps inadvertently - said something similar at the Immigration Office.

That could easily explain their insistence that you obtain a Work Permit.

Patrick

[TomBrown]

By the way, the place where I am learning have suggested that I can do some work for them, but at present this has not been properly confirmed.

Just wondering why you thought it necessary to include that comment in your original Post; which then leads me to wonder if you - perhaps inadvertently - said something similar at the Immigration Office.

That could easily explain their insistence that you obtain a Work Permit.

Patrick

Hi,

The reason I mentioned it was that before my first post I had been bouncing back and fore between the Thai Immigration and Brit Embassy, following the request that I just do education and no working. Although the education place did say that I could work, so it was an option. Though at no point did I mention it to Immigration or anyone, it was purely an education visa only.

Anyway, with all this trouble, I went to Sunbelt Asia who said that all I'd get was a 1 month extension, so I went over the border and came back with 3 months remaining on my current visa. As such, the Immigration / Visa extension as not been resolved and as today is the last day on my 1 year Ed visa, I'd suspect that I now won't be able to extend it. Oh also, yesterday the officer at the border stamped my 1 year visa page as 'Used', not sure if this makes my situation worse now or not.

Thanks,

Tom.

[Maestro]

Tom, as the validity of your visa has now expired the “USED” stamp on it is normal procedure and does not affect your situation in any way.

Having entered Thailand yesterday, 4 May, for the last time on your multiple-entry non-Ed visa you should now have an entry stamp in your passport that reads “admitted until 01 AUG 2007”. Check if this is so.

With three to four weeks remaining of your current permission to stay, ie about 3 July, go to the immigration office and apply for your extension of stay for the reason of study. If your documents are in order, you should then get an extension for the period of your enrolment at the school, maximum one year counting from 3 May. Look at the bottom of page one of the application form and be sure to write “study” in the field “Reason for application”

--

Maestro

[Firefan]

Well, I believe that the problem could be that this school is not a government approved/accredited school (by the ministry of education) and therefore extensions IN Thailand will probably not be possible. The original visa was probably obtained at OPs home country/outside Thailand where the non-o visa is often issued with more lax requirements; visiting friends/studying the culture/study muay thai Etc. without proving any government approved institution involved. CHeers!

[TomBrown]

Hi,

This is a continuation / update since my posts back in May, with a little bit more advice needed if available.

The advice so far has been great and many thanks for that.

I was trying to gain an extension on my Ed-visa, but Immigration in Bangkok were insisting on me providing additional documentation for a work permit, even though it was not working. After showing them that I was applying under clause 7.8 for study only, they were still insistent on me having the additional work permit documentation. In the end I did a visa run to get 3 months additional stay under my Ed visa, with an exit stamp of 01 August. Back in Thailand, 4 weeks before my visa expired (beginning of July) I visited the Immigration in Bangkok again with my Supporting Letter, and a copy of the clause 7.8. However, as my visa had now been stamped "USED", the immigration officer refused to allow me to extend the visa, stating that that visa had expired, there could be nothing done with it and the only possible way to gain a new Ed-visa would be to go to another country, she suggested Singapore. After reading some details in the forum of trips to Singapore, mid-July I decided to go with my documentation for a new Ed-Visa. If only it were that simple. I got to the Royal Thai Embassy in Orchard Road, submitted my application for 'study' with the supporting letter and returned the following day to be met with a refusal unless I got the company to fax through a company certificate. Well after a couple of phone calls to the company in Thailand, they faxed a copy of the certificate to Singapore, but when I got back there they claimed that it wasn't the correct documentation. So, in the end I had to settle for a 2 month tourist visa with the claim from Singapore that I could get the Ed-visa from within Thailand Immigration in Bangkok. Of course it was Bkk Immigration who said to go to Singapore. Well that's pretty the update on what happened. I should say that the staff in Singapore seemed to be helpful enough, despite being quite hard faced after getting the requested documentation.

So now I have been advised by the supporting company to go to Kuala Lumpur with my supporting letter, fax copy of the company certificate (that was sent to Singapore) and get a new Ed-visa there. I wonder how this will fare out as the Embassy officer in Singapore stated that after the 2 month tourist visa, she didn't think I'd get anything else, not sure why though (they were closing at that point so didn't get an answer). Maybe she was referring to just tourist visa.

I'll be applying for a multi-Ed visa, but from what I have read it's likely to only be a single entry one, if even that. If I didn't get the Ed-visa, what would I get, 30 day tourist or a 7 day jobby?

As this has been such a waste of resources (both time and money), I've been thinking about other possible options for my stay here. One being that I have a Thai son and will be looking into what options is open to me from that side of things, though probably not until I try to renew this visa which expires v.soon, unless otherwise advised?

Another thing I've been thinking about is using my own media company back home to gain a media visa which would help me a bit in other work I have been thinking about for a while now.

Anyone's thoughts on how best to move forward would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom.

[simon43]

I think it's much more difficult to get a media visa ...

If you have a Thai son, I believe that you should be able to get a 90 O visa on the grounds of visiting him. But I'm no expert and I'm sure Greg at SunbeltAsia can give better advice.

Simon

[TomBrown]

Thought I'd add a bit of info from my visa trip to Singapore, I'll try to make it short;

Booked the flight to Singapore via AirAsia.com, was painless enough. Cost about 6,000 baht leaving early morning.

Airport;

Arrived at the airport in terminal 2, headed towards the main exit/entrance of the terminal, Tourist Information Centre is straight ahead. From their you'll get the city map and other brochures etc and they'll even help you to book a hotel. I opted not to get a hotel booked but rather find my own hotel, thinking I'd have to pay more via the Tourist Info Centre, big mistake I'll not make again as I had to go to about 10 hotels before I found one that wasn't fully booked or so bad I'd not let a dog sleep in it.

MRTS Trains;

Came out of Tourist Information and took a right, went upstairs to the mini train that'll take you to terminal 1 for free. From there, I followed the signs to the 'trains' (take a right after Burger King) and head down stairs. It's only after you are down stairs that you'll see the signs for MRTS, before then it’s labelled as Trains. At the MRTS (Mass Rapid Transit System) station I got a very handy pocket sized map and bought my ticket from the machine just behind the stairs I just came down. The tickets are credit card sized proxy cards, with the maximum fare being about S$3.50 (it was about S$2.00 into the centre). It was a single ticket I bought, so I was able to put the card back into a machine at the destination station and get back S$1.00, which is effectively the deposit on the card.

Hotel;

I stayed at the Hotel 81 Bencoolen, which was a decent hotel at a cost of S$119 a night, 5 minutes walk from a MRTS station and a 7-Eleven and food court place just across the street. The hotel prices were up a little as there was a conference on, hence my trip round several other hotels before this one. There was one issue with this hotel, the fridge was broken in my room and had been removed awaiting a replacement, after finding that out I latter tried to get some money back because of this issue and the guy at the reception desk said 'who said the room came with a fridge?' to which I said you did actually, but he still wouldn't give some money back for the inconvenience of no in room fridge. He had a bit of a cheek really, but other than that the hotel seemed good.

Thai Embassy;

Got to the Orchard Street MRTS station, outside took a left and walked along a little bit then crossed the road to the opposite side where the Thai Embassy is. Silly me forgot to take a pen, thinking that the place might have as many pens as Thai Immigration in Bangkok (albeit secured to desks by mini chains), but no, so I had to embarrassingly borrow someone else's who was kind enough to loan me it (usually I'm very well prepared).

If you need an ATM, outside the embassy, cross the road and 1 minute walk on your left.

If you need internet, outside the embassy, take a right and walk a few minutes till you get to the shopping mall, internet at the back of the ground floor.

Telephone call boxes are all around and there's a near by 7-Eleven across the road from the Embassy you can buy phone cards from.

Thai Phone Sim;

Before I came to Singapore (this being my first time) I was wondering if I could use my Thai phone Sim (1-2-Call), well it appeared I could but only for incoming text and voice calls, nothing outgoing.

The first day the phone automatically connected to Starhub, the second day a network called SGP-M1-3GSM. I received calls via both networks and latter discovered that my credit was being used up also during these incoming calls. Well at least I could receive calls, unfortunately had to use the call boxes outside to make calls.

Shopping;

Taxi drivers seemed to be pleasant and helpful enough and can be flagged down anywhere.

Didn't really have much time to see much of the attractions, but did visit a couple of big shopping malls and Sim Lim Square where all the IT shops are. Just like Pan Tip Plaza in Bangkok (web address; www.simlimsquare.com.sg)

Some example prices from shops in Sim Lim Square (as at July 2007);

Intel P4 - 3.0 GHz - 925 - D Core +800fsb +4MB = S$169

Kingston 2GB SD Card Elite Pro High Speed 50x = S$33

Samsung 120GB SATA 2.5" HDD 5400RPM with SATA Enclosure = S$199

To be honest, I wasn't really that impressed with some of the prices for IT / electrical stuff in Singapore, but there are definitely deals there if you know where to look.

I think I've probably said more than enough for now, and maybe something I've said here will be of use to future visitors.

Regards,

Tom.