EU summit to say Brexit progress "still not sufficient"

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

This quote definitely deserves a place in the hall of fame of Brexiteer comments, just between “we will hold all the cards” and “the easiest deal in history”. 

You carry on decorating your wall to your own taste.

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

We didn't sign Mays deal. Johnson signed HIS oven ready deal. His great deal. His fantastic deal.

You and I both know that this was May's deal. Johnson sprinkled a bit of icing on top and ran with it because the disgraceful Remainer Parliament made it impossible for him to leave with No Deal which deliberately gave the EU the advantage in negotiations.

 

If Johnson caves in between now and December then he deserves all the vitriol he will get. But his hands were tied this time last year.

[Surelynot]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You and I both know that this was May's deal. Johnson sprinkled a bit of icing on top and ran with it because the disgraceful Remainer Parliament made it impossible for him to leave with No Deal which deliberately gave the EU the advantage in negotiations.

 

If Johnson caves in between now and December then he deserves all the vitriol he will get. But his hands were tied this time last year.

It was nothing like May's deal....she refused point blank to ever allow any form of border down the Irish Sea....Johnson just drew the DUP under the bus and signed up to just that....hence he is now trying to renege on the treaty HE SIGNED.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Surelynot

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

It was nothing like May's deal....she refused point blank to ever allow any form of border down the Irish Sea....Johnson just drew the DUP under the bus and signed up to just that....hence he is now trying to renege on the treaty HE SIGNED.

Disagree. Actually this 'deal' is very similar to May's, in most respects, except for the Northern Irish references and a few other parts. That the EU would threaten to use this as leverage was probably expected, hence the IMB. Both WAs were bad IMO and if Boris was serious about getting Brexit done he should have reduced it down to just protect UK and EU people and insisted that trade talks should start after that. This whole mess is ongoing because May allowed the EU to dictate the sequencing of the whole package (no trade talks until the WA and PD signed), which did not need to be the case and was not required legally.   

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Disagree. Actually this 'deal' is very similar to May's, in most respects, except for the Northern Irish references and a few other parts. That the EU would threaten to use this as leverage was probably expected, hence the IMB. Both WAs were bad IMO and if Boris was serious about getting Brexit done he should have reduced it down to just protect UK and EU people and insisted that trade talks should start after that. This whole mess is ongoing because May allowed the EU to dictate the sequencing of the whole package (no trade talks until the WA and PD signed), which did not need to be the case and was not required legally.   

Exactly, the EU said no trade deal until the WA was signed. Then after the WA was signed they made a load of outlandish demands for a trade deal that were simply impossible to agree to. Then threatened to use an extreme interpretation of the WA to cut off food supplies from the rest of the UK to NI.

 

Classic EU trickery, bait and switch. Can't trust them as far as you could throw them. Only May was dumb enough (or more likely traitorous enough) to go along with it. She has an awful lot to answer for, along with that Remainer Parliament. Disgraceful treachery.

 

Johnson has one last chance. Leave on No Deal at the end of December. Break free from this corrupt, disgraceful, underhand organization once and for all. Let's see if he has the gonads.

[OneMoreFarang]

11 hours ago, nauseus said:

It doesn't matter, we voted for this Impossible Dream.

Then there is just one option: Keep dreaming. Never look at reality.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 May allowed the EU to dictate the sequencing of the whole package (no trade talks until the WA and PD signed), which did not need to be the case and was not required legally.   

Agreed. Like you, I think that this has had a major impact on negotiations.

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Then after the WA was signed they made a load of outlandish demands for a trade deal that were simply impossible to agree to.

There are outlandish demands from both sides.  It's a negotiation. It's highly unlikely the UK will agree to the EU keeping existing fishing rights. Likewise, the EU will almost certainly reject the UK demand for unfettered access to the single market. If a deal is to be had, compromises will have to be made by both sides.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

Then threatened to use an extreme interpretation of the WA to cut off food supplies from the rest of the UK to NI.

No they didn't. The EU required the UK to confirm details of its food safety regulations before its name can be added a list of approved third countries for the import of food into the EU. It is a formality and normal procedure, and applies to all third countries not just the UK. Just another example of Johnson talking nonsense.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

Classic EU trickery, bait and switch. Can't trust them as far as you could throw them.

No evidence to support this claim.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Only May was dumb enough (or more likely traitorous enough) to go along with it. She has an awful lot to answer for, along with that Remainer Parliament. Disgraceful treachery.

I wouldn't call either May or Parliament traitorous. However, imo there can be little doubt that successive Tory governments have been comprehensively outmanoeuvred by the EU throughout the negotiations.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

Johnson has one last chance. Leave on No Deal at the end of December.

Certainly an option. Whether it's the best one is another matter. You say 'Yes', I say 'No'. Time will tell, who's right.

 

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Break free from this corrupt, disgraceful, underhand organization once and for all. Let's see if he has the gonads.

Rhetoric without substance.

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, RayC said:

Rhetoric without substance.

Sure, but good luck to change  the opinion of someone who is pertinently convinced that his opinion ( it may been support by a few others ) is the only right one.

[puipuitom]

18 hours ago, NeoDinosaw said:

WRONG - he is 5th rate at best !

  20 hours ago, Surelynot said:

No...I don't believe for one minute he has the ***** to stick to his own deadline....bluff and bluster...not a clue.... He is nothing more than a third rate journalist.

and a continuous lying one...

 

But.. the British elected him in a landslide, unprecedented glorious winning outcome, so.... Maybe put question marks behing the unelected brains of BJ = Dominicq Cummings ?

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You and I both know that this was May's deal. Johnson sprinkled a bit of icing on top and ran with it because the disgraceful Remainer Parliament made it impossible for him to leave with No Deal which deliberately gave the EU the advantage in negotiations.

 

If Johnson caves in between now and December then he deserves all the vitriol he will get. But his hands were tied this time last year.

When was the general election?

When was the WA signed?

 

Johnsons deal. His great deal. His fantastic deal that you clapped like trained seals when it was signed.

Now you claim its not his deal?

Problem with rewriting history is you have to wait until everyone who was around at the time is dead.

You are trying it after only 8 months. 

[puipuitom]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

we can finally escape the greasy tentacles of the corrupt protectionist racket at the end of the year. 

This type of people not deserve a place in my Union of Nations. So,

Edited October 15, 2020 by puipuitom

[dunroaming]

21 hours ago, Surelynot said:

That's it then...we walk away tomorrow.....well done BJ.

Yes of course, Johnson said that this summit was crunch time.  If they couldn't agree a trade deal by tomorrow then Britain would leave with no deal!  So you would expect that to be the case, right?  But Johnson has once again backtracked and still wants to keep the talks going, indicating that a deal is still possible.  The EU are, as always holding their ground.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, puipuitom said:

  20 hours ago, Surelynot said:

No...I don't believe for one minute he has the ***** to stick to his own deadline....bluff and bluster...not a clue.... He is nothing more than a third rate journalist.

and a continuous lying one...

 

But.. the British elected him in a landslide, unprecedented glorious winning outcome, so.... Maybe put question marks behing the unelected brains of BJ = Dominicq Cummings ?

In the general election it was very much about making sure that the inadequate Corbyn didn't get in as much as voting in Johnson. That is why so many Labour supporters voted Conservative.  Similar situation in the USA now,  People will vote to get rid of Trump rather than voting for Biden.

[puipuitom]

11 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

In the general election it was very much about making sure that the inadequate Corbyn didn't get in as much as voting in Johnson. That is why so many Labour supporters voted Conservative.  Similar situation in the USA now,  People will vote to get rid of Trump rather than voting for Biden.

Thanks to the British ( and US) voting system: the winner gets it all. No use to vote on a party, who risks NOT to get the majority in the Barony ( sorry: constituency). No use to vote for party nr 3 or even 4, as wasted anyhow.

Second advantage: every party know: next time I will need THEM, instead as now, treating them as the mortal enemy. Disadvantage, see Spain and Belgium, when parties see their own interest far above the national interest: re-upon-re-election or.. 550 days to form a new government.

[7by7]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Personally I would have preferred No Deal last year before we signed May's awful withdrawal agreement, but hopefully Boris won't bottle it and we can finally escape the greasy tentacles of the corrupt protectionist racket at the end of the year. 

 May's awful withdrawal agreement?

 

It was Boris'! May's agreement never got through Parliament.

 

Although it is true that Boris' agreement is almost identical to May's. Apart from his selling out of Northern Ireland by bringing back the customs border down the Irish sea which May had rejected, calling it something no British Prime Minister could even contemplate!

 

Of course, he's shown how trustworthy he is by reneging on that, now.

[7by7]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You and I both know that this was May's deal. Johnson sprinkled a bit of icing on top and ran with it because the disgraceful Remainer Parliament made it impossible for him to leave with No Deal which deliberately gave the EU the advantage in negotiations.

 

If Johnson caves in between now and December then he deserves all the vitriol he will get. But his hands were tied this time last year.

The "disgraceful Remainer Parliament" voted against May's deal three times!

 

If it were as awful as you say; why was that? Was May a Brexiteer?

 

Boris ran a general election campaign on 'getting Brexit done' via his 'oven ready deal.' He won that election with a majority of 80 seats. His WA was approved by Parliament with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020.

 

Yet, as I've said, Boris' deal is identical to May's in all but one part. So from your remarks you must believe that Boris with his 80 seat majority are also disgraceful Remainers!

Edited October 15, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[7by7]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Disagree. Actually this 'deal' is very similar to May's, in most respects, except for the Northern Irish references and a few other parts.

Agreed. Boris' agreement is identical to May's apart from selling out Northern Ireland.

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

That the EU would threaten to use this as leverage was probably expected, hence the IMB

So what threats has the EU made? Talk of an EU blockade of Northern Ireland came from a tweet by David Frost. I have seen no such from any EU source; even the Daily Express accepts that: and even say it would be legally impossible anyway! Brexit breakthrough as legal loophole 'stops EU imposing Northern Ireland blockade

Quote

Dr Hayward continued: “The EU has not threatened such a blockade and it could not carry it out anyway.

“It is the UK authorities who are implementing the Protocol — the UK is responsible for conducting the checks and controls on goods entering and leaving Northern Ireland.”

 

But if this possibility was even remotely anticipated, Boris had no business signing the WA in the first place; let alone doing so with such personal triumphalism! 

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Both WAs were bad IMO and if Boris was serious about getting Brexit done he should have reduced it down to just protect UK and EU people and insisted that trade talks should start after that.

Then why didn't he start all over again instead of presenting May's agreement plus the sell out of Northern Ireland as his own oven ready deal?

 

He could have, indeed should have, had his own deal ready and waiting before he even took over from May. Oh, hang on; he said he had one; his oven ready one!

 

Whilst there were discussions before hand, trade talks did start in earnest after we left. 

 

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

This whole mess is ongoing because May allowed the EU to dictate the sequencing of the whole package (no trade talks until the WA and PD signed), which did not need to be the case and was not required legally.  

Johnson had the power to change that, if it's true. So why didn't he? The EU had already agreed to extend Article 50 twice during May's Premiership and agreed to a third at Boris' request, despite his 'dead in a ditch' promise. He could have easily obtained another extension.

 

Of course, having fought and won an election on the, it now seems false, promise of getting Brexit done with his oven ready deal; he'd have been on very shaky ground with his party had he done so.

 

From all his actions since he returned to Parliament; the one thing which Boris puts above all else is his being Prime Minister.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

When was the general election?

When was the WA signed?

 

Johnsons deal. His great deal. His fantastic deal that you clapped like trained seals when it was signed.

Now you claim its not his deal?

Problem with rewriting history is you have to wait until everyone who was around at the time is dead.

You are trying it after only 8 months. 

I wasn't clapping about the WA and I can't remember who was. Do tell. 

[2530Ubon]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

We didn't sign Mays deal. Johnson signed HIS oven ready deal. His great deal. His fantastic deal.

Quite fitting that Boris' birthplace was america (New York) - he sounds just like another overweight american tosser with bad hair currently running for re-election.

[puipuitom]

Just 2 1/2 months to go and then: rules + regulations coming from a 'Third country" into the EU are in force:

a) veterinary rules about food import so no meat, fish, dairy like Scottish salmon, cheddar, allowed to take with you to EU from a visit to UK in your lugguage https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/1637308519/douane-schotse-zalm-mag-straks-niet-meer-mee-in-bagage

b) alcoholic drinks, sigarets etc : think of EU rules

c) Parcels by post with value above € 22 = custom clearance + import duty + VAT to be paid

d) bought something above € 430,- with you =  same: custom clearance + import duty + VAT to be paid

e) alle electric appliances, sports + toys articles MUST have CE approval

f) big chance for checks for branded products seen counterfeight items

 

How many EU tourists will still choose UK as destination ?

 

Or: Free to The Great Irish Famine  iles.eric.ed.gov › fulltext

Soon a Celt will be as rare in Ireland as a Red Indian on the streets of Manhattan. ...

 

Soon an EU tourist in the UK will be as rare as ....

Edited October 15, 2020 by puipuitom

[nauseus]

23 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Agreed. Boris' agreement is identical to May's apart from selling out Northern Ireland.

 

So what threats has the EU made? Talk of an EU blockade of Northern Ireland came from a tweet by David Frost. I have seen no such from any EU source; even the Daily Express accepts that: and even say it would be legally impossible anyway! Brexit breakthrough as legal loophole 'stops EU imposing Northern Ireland blockade

 

But if this possibility was even remotely anticipated, Boris had no business signing the WA in the first place; let alone doing so with such personal triumphalism! But if this possibility was even remotely anticipated, Boris had no business signing the WA in the first place; let alone doing so with such personal triumphalism! 

 

Then why didn't he start all over again instead of presenting May's agreement plus the sell out of Northern Ireland as his own oven ready deal?

 

He could have, indeed should have, had his own deal ready and waiting before he even took over from May. Oh, hang on; he said he had one; his oven ready one!

 

Whilst there were discussions before hand, trade talks did start in earnest after we left. 

 

Johnson had the power to change that, if it's true. So why didn't he? The EU had already agreed to extend Article 50 twice during May's Premiership and agreed to a third at Boris' request, despite his 'dead in a ditch' promise. He could have easily obtained another extension.

 

Of course, having fought and won an election on the, it now seems false, promise of getting Brexit done with his oven ready deal; he'd have been on very shaky ground with his party had he done so.

 

From all his actions since he returned to Parliament; the one thing which Boris puts above all else is his being Prime Minister.

Frost is the chief negotiator. Who else can we believe? He said he was 'told in negotiations that there was no guarantee the EU would list Britain as a "third country" for food exports, thereby making it illegal for Northern Ireland to import from the rest of Britain'.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/09/14/eu-s-barnier-and-uk-s-frost-take-brexit-frustrations-onto-twitter

 

I agree that Boris should not have signed the WA but to start all over again more than three years after the referendum? Another three years? I think that would not be acceptable to most of the UK electorate, either way, although possibly acceptable to the EU - they love extensions and stuff like that. 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by nauseus

[nauseus]

Just now, nauseus said:

brexit

 

5 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Just 2 1/2 months to go and then: rules + regulations coming from a 'Third country" into the EU are in force:

a) veterinary rules about food import so no meat, fish, dairy like Scottish salmon, cheddar, allowed to take with you to EU from a visit to UK in your lugguage https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/1637308519/douane-schotse-zalm-mag-straks-niet-meer-mee-in-bagage

b) alcoholic drinks, sigarets etc : think of EU rules

c) Parcels by post with value above € 22 = custom clearance + import duty + VAT to be paid

d) bought something above € 430,- with you =  same: custom clearance + import duty + VAT to be paid

e) alle electric appliances, sports + toys articles MUST have CE approval

f) big chance for checks for branded products seen counterfeight items

 

How many EU tourists will still choose UK as destination ?

rules rules rules

[Rookiescot]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I wasn't clapping about the WA and I can't remember who was. Do tell. 

????????????????

 

 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

rules rules rules

Good job we are getting rid of all that EU red tape.

[puipuitom]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I wasn't clapping about the WA and I can't remember who was. Do tell. 

To fresh up your memory:

https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-21/europeanunionwithdrawalagreement.html

 

Bye-the-way: the British also proved what an in UK parliament ratified treaty is worth: not even the ink to sign it.

( Internal Market Bill )

 

[puipuitom]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

rules rules rules

Nothing more intelligent to reply ?

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

????????????????

 

 

A different event if I remember rightly.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

To fresh up your memory:

https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-21/europeanunionwithdrawalagreement.html

 

Bye-the-way: the British also proved what an in UK parliament ratified treaty is worth: not even the ink to sign it.

( Internal Market Bill )

 

Er, we were talking about applause.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

Nothing more intelligent to reply ?

It was a brief comment. Not a reply. But for some, working that out probably requires a modicum of comprehension.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Frost is the chief negotiator. Who else can we believe? He claimed to have been told in negotiations that there was no guarantee the EU would list Britain as a "third country" for food exports, thereby making it illegal for Northern Ireland to import from the rest of Britain.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/09/14/eu-s-barnier-and-uk-s-frost-take-brexit-frustrations-onto-twitter

If you want people to believe that the EU have been making threats about blockading Northern Ireland you would be more convincing if you produced some evidence of those threats other than a tweet from David Frost!

 

As the Express article says; "the UK is responsible for conducting the checks and controls on goods entering and leaving Northern Ireland." So the EU couldn't blockade Northern Ireland even if they wanted to.

 

But all this is a little out of date. From 23/9/20: UK satisfied EU won’t block food exports after Brexit

Quote

The U.K. is no longer concerned that the EU could block food exports if trade talks fail, saying Wednesday night it has obtained reassurances from Brussels.

 

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I agree that Boris should not have signed the WA but to start all over again more than three years after the referendum? Another three years? I think that would not be acceptable to most of the UK electorate, either way, although possibly acceptable to the EU - they love extensions and stuff like that. 

 

May had agreed a WA with the EU. What took so long was that WA being continually rejected by Parliament. Boris with his 80 seat majority would not have had that problem.

 

Even had they not had their own WA in the background during their plot to oust May, surely if Boris and Cummings are as smart as Brexiteers say they could have prepared their own WA after Boris became PM rather than using May's old one? Even though Boris did proclaim it as his! In fact, Boris asked for, and was granted, an Article 50 extension so he could put the final touches to 'his' WA and get it through Parliament. 

 

But yes, as I said, having agreed to three previous extensions I'm sure the EU would have agreed to another.

 

The electorate? It's not them Boris has to worry about; he'll be long gone by December 2014; his party will make sure of that.