Builders contract, build in your name, Tessaban concerns

[kuma]

Good day all:

 

Like to canvass the community about a home building issue.

 

Consisely:

 

Bought land in wifes name, registered usufruct on same day at land office. Used local Lawyer, all in order.

 

Legally married, together over a decade but just formailzed marriage via certification in my Amphur. Was post land buy and Usufruct registration. Usufruct in Provincial database lists us married.

 

Found builder and signed contract to build a house. I had them put it in my name, originally they put wifes name down. At that point they were a bit hesitant...I said use my nane, all paperwork is in order, I assumed I can sign contract to build....I am paying and have Usufruct in place.

 

In Thailand over 15 years now, on both work and "retirement" visas. Currently on retirement visa.

 

Question please. Anyone have familiarity witu such a set up, and were you able to proceed with registration at the Tessaban?

 

We live near the village Head, and have had good relations with him and Tessaban/neighbours since first day, no dramas.

 

We found a builder and signed contracrt, plans done, team on site and ready to go, and then I am told about a contract issue.....

The Head said today he could approve the application to build immediately, if contract was in wifes name - but if it is in my name there is a process that could take up to 12 months and may not finally be approved.

 

Is anyone familiar with this contract issue ?

 

Cheers for reading such a long post, lol

 

[Peterw42]

Wouldn't it be two different things, one is an application to build a house subject to building codes, zoning etc, the other is a commercial contract between you and a builder. Why would the application have anything to do with who is paying who to build the structure.

What does your original lawyer say ?

 

I presume you want the contract in your name so the structure is yours, (I have never really understood what that achieves unless its a portable house) but as its an asset acquired during marriage, wouldn't that make it 50% hers anyway ? 

Is there a possibility of doing the contract in your wifes name then she transfers ownership after its built.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Peterw42

[kamalabob2]

I have a permit to build in my name. I've had three different yellow books. My current yellow book shows my adopted adult daughter as "master of the house" and I am listed as "border'. My previous yellow book had my wife as master. A first yellow book had a relative listed since it was a different city at his house where I "lived".  The permit to build is predicated by the house plans being professional. I have the PEA in my name. I have the PWA in my name. I have internet and previously land line telephone in my name. None of this was a challenge in anyway in Satuk, Buriram. No bribes ever. No delay on the permit to build. My name on the contract with a home builder. My name on the approved house plans as owner.  See attached house plan listin gowner of home in Satuk, Buriram Thailand. Foreigners can own a home in Thailand. Home owner insurance in my name. Insurance company pays into my bank account on claims. 

https://www.buriramhome.com/buriram-architect-house-floor-plans/

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, kamalabob2 said:

I have a permit to build in my name. I've had three different yellow books. My current yellow book shows my adopted adult daughter as "master of the house" and I am listed as "border'. My previous yellow book had my wife as master. A first yellow book had a relative listed since it was a different city at his house where I "lived".  The permit to build is predicated by the house plans being professional. I have the PEA in my name. I have the PWA in my name. I have internet and previously land line telephone in my name. None of this was a challenge in anyway in Satuk, Buriram. No bribes ever. No delay on the permit to build. My name on the contract with a home builder. My name on the approved house plans as owner.  See attached house plan listin gowner of home in Satuk, Buriram Thailand. Foreigners can own a home in Thailand. Home owner insurance in my name. Insurance company pays into my bank account on claims. 

https://www.buriramhome.com/buriram-architect-house-floor-plans/

 

It does sound like the OP is being scammed.

Interested to know why you mention yellow book as they are nothing to do with ownership of land or structure, you can get a yellow book for a property you are renting . and wouldn't Thais be listed in the blue book for the property

 

[Matzzon]

As you speak it will not work. This is something you need to take up with the land and transport department. They are the only ones that can split up land and house between you and your wife. Has nothing to do with what stands on the building contract. As long as you have no paper that the building is yours you can not sign for building, as well as you will not get a name on something that do not already exist.

[kuma]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

 

It does sound like the OP is being scammed.

Interested to know why you mention yellow book as they are nothing to do with ownership of land or structure, you can get a yellow book for a property you are renting . and wouldn't Thais be listed in the blue book for the property

 

Peter/Bob 

Thanks for the replies. The architect plans are in my name. The motivation to do it as registered in my name is to ease any future paperwork if we plan to sell and a foreigner is interested....get all the drama covered now. Not a mobile home so no intent to ever move it...mind you it will sit one metre off the ground so it is feasible.

I have a yellow book for a condo I own. I guess an advantage of building in my name is I could ger a yellow book here...good again in terms of easing future resale to a foreigner, mind you Peters comment SDounds like I could get a yellow book just by having a usufruct. To me its approaching an academic / respect issue (respect too intense a word, but no alternative springs to mind).  I feel by law I can certainly have the contract to build in my name, ao at a loss as to why this is an issue? And village Head is a nieghbour as I mentioned and we seemed to get on well, ahuch makes it more puzzling, hebce checking to see what other experiences are out there.

Appreciate all the input.

Cheers

 

[kuma]

18 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

As you speak it will not work. This is something you need to take up with the land and transport department. They are the only ones that can split up land and house between you and your wife. Has nothing to do with what stands on the building contract. As long as you have no paper that the building is yours you can not sign for building, as well as you will not get a name on something that do not already exist.

Mattzon, thanks for the input. Sounds like a catch 22 in that...which for sure I have encountered here. Thing is I have a registered usufruct, which does efgectively split land ownership and usage, and grants me the right to do on the property as I please for the period of my natural life...so this issue seens fundamental to that and if this xant be done, then what value does the usufruct hold and why bother doing it...that is sort of what puzzles me.

Thanks for the input

[NanLaew]

The OP should seek a Thai lawyers legal opinion.

 

Then, get a second Thai lawyers legal opinion.

Edited October 24, 2020 by NanLaew
sp

[Matzzon]

22 minutes ago, kuma said:

Mattzon, thanks for the input. Sounds like a catch 22 in that...which for sure I have encountered here. Thing is I have a registered usufruct, which does efgectively split land ownership and usage, and grants me the right to do on the property as I please for the period of my natural life...so this issue seens fundamental to that and if this xant be done, then what value does the usufruct hold and why bother doing it...that is sort of what puzzles me.

Thanks for the input

Yes, It´s will surely do. The good thing is that you have a usufruct that will give you the right to live in the place as long as you live or wish. That will also make it easier for you  to split the house and the land in two deeds at a later stage. However, some offices will agree to that and some will not. It will also depend on the piece of land, but please do not ask me how they will look at that. Have no clue.- ???? 

[kuma]

32 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The OP should seek a Thai lawyers legal opinion.

 

Then, get a second Thai lawyers legal opinion.

Cheers, indeed I have a lawyer and will engage him Monday for his counsel...trying to better understand the whole landscape, as I am not sure if engaging a lawyer to help would be deemed good business, or an affront. I want to move along at an easy pace, but builders are starting so need a conclusion relatively soon. To me it seems the law is gray on fhis, like so much, and it is individual preference that takes precedence by jurisdiction. Need to find the fine line between being seen as pushy, or being a push over. 

Cheers for the input

[kuma]

26 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Yes, It´s will surely do. The good thing is that you have a usufruct that will give you the right to live in the place as long as you live or wish. That will also make it easier for you  to split the house and the land in two deeds at a later stage. However, some offices will agree to that and some will not. It will also depend on the piece of land, but please do not ask me how they will look at that. Have no clue.- ???? 

My thoughts exactly, the usufruct should make this a turn key event. To be honest, totally blindsided by this...it was the last step I could think of being complex. This amphur has very few foreigners and perhaps none have ever tried this process, hence the reluctance. As mentioned above, will confer with a lawyer Monday. Hope to not have to use him,  but maybe that is the intent ... Fee generation?

Happy Saturday

[bradiston]

I have a house built with my name on the building permit and my signature on the construction agreement. But my daughter owns the land it's built on. We also have a usufruct agreement. But out in the sticks, in Trad province, the only thing that interests them is the ownership of the land. You can argue til the cows come home that you are the house owner. They just don't want to know. Almost impossible to get a yellow book. Immigration demanding to talk to my daughter, and fining her for not registering me on TM30. In my experience, the hassle is never ending.

[Peter Denis]

18 minutes ago, bradiston said:

I have a house built with my name on the building permit and my signature on the construction agreement. But my daughter owns the land it's built on. We also have a usufruct agreement. But out in the sticks, in Trad province, the only thing that interests them is the ownership of the land. You can argue til the cows come home that you are the house owner. They just don't want to know. Almost impossible to get a yellow book. Immigration demanding to talk to my daughter, and fining her for not registering me on TM30. In my experience, the hassle is never ending.

Wow, so they fined your daughter for not having notified the IO that you - a foreigner - was staying at the premisses.  But you are the house owner!  It is you - as house owner - that has to notify the local IO that you are staying at your own house.  Your daughter has nothing to do with this.  The house-book clarifies the issue who is owner of the house, and that's the person expected to notify IO that a foreigner is staying there.

Looks like Trad IO is totally out of bounds on this issue.

Note: Did you try registering the premisses on the IO TM-30 website?

[baansgr]

Can the Village head explain point by point the process that will take 12 months and why it may not get approval? Of course your lawyer will know what to do. Seems like village mentality look after and protect our own at the expense of the Foreigner. 

[KKr]

17 hours ago, Matzzon said:

As you speak it will not work. This is something you need to take up with the land and transport department. They are the only ones that can split up land and house between you and your wife. Has nothing to do with what stands on the building contract. As long as you have no paper that the building is yours you can not sign for building, as well as you will not get a name on something that do not already exist.

Do you mean the Usufruct regulations do not apply ? 
to me it sounds like the village “head” is overstepping his authority.

[KKr]

1 minute ago, KKr said:

Do you mean the Usufruct regulations do not apply ? 
to me it sounds like the village “head” is overstepping his authority.

<<Cannot edit apparently on mobile now >>
so correction here;

 

usufruct if I remember correctly allows for use of house, and house needs to be maintained, what may cause indeed legal question about ownership. 
Superficies means basically you can do as you please, and take house off at end of contract. 

 

any Lawyer on TV who can clarify ???

[BritManToo]

19 hours ago, kuma said:

We live near the village Head, and have had good relations with him and Tessaban/neighbours since first day, no dramas.

Would expect the problem to be your wife telling the village head to insist it's in her name.

Just stop the build and see if the problem suddenly goes away.

[LukKrueng]

Again this misconception of house ownership. When you buy a plot of land, your name (must be Thai citizen) is listed on the chanot as owner. When you build a house on that plot, no chanot (title deed) is being issued for the house, so whoever owns the land owns everything on it (non movable structures).

AFAIK the only exception is when you buy a house in a project where they issue 2 chanots, one for the land and 1 fire the house. As someone mentioned above - it makes no sense to register a non movable structure separately from the plot of land, as you can't sell 1 without the other. 

 

As for the contract with the builder - as someone mentioned earlier it has nothing to do with the permit

Edited October 25, 2020 by LukKrueng

[kuma]

6 hours ago, bradiston said:

I have a house built with my name on the building permit and my signature on the construction agreement. But my daughter owns the land it's built on. We also have a usufruct agreement. But out in the sticks, in Trad province, the only thing that interests them is the ownership of the land. You can argue til the cows come home that you are the house owner. They just don't want to know. Almost impossible to get a yellow book. Immigration demanding to talk to my daughter, and fining her for not registering me on TM30. In my experience, the hassle is never ending.

Yo Brad

Thanks for the input, sorry for the hassles you are having. It is indeed at times a never ending struggle for some seemingly simple things here - thou I have to say at home it seems to be similar now. It seems globally we all are being told we do not have the rights and freedoms we perhaps took too much for granted the past 30-40 years - but thats another topic..

Get a legal opinion this week, see whats next then - to your point, might be $ spent for no reason, as final outcome will remain the same, lol.

Enjoy the day.

[spornb]

Have built three houses here so far

 

Have Usufruct

 

Never done contract for the whole, always split it

 

1)  land clearance/fencing

 

2)Foundations and base level concrete

 

3)Walls and second floor

 

4)Roof

 

5) Electric and water

 

I have always signed the agreement, ( and drawn it up ) only pay enough to cover work completed, pay every two weeks ;  builder signs for money on each payment, enables switch contractor easily, usually have undefined bonus clause for final stage, also have penalty clause in  the event of major delay

 

11 yrs here and married to Thai so far so good

[kuma]

6 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Wow, so they fined your daughter for not having notified the IO that you - a foreigner - was staying at the premisses.  But you are the house owner!  It is you - as house owner - that has to notify the local IO that you are staying at your own house.  Your daughter has nothing to do with this.  The house-book clarifies the issue who is owner of the house, and that's the person expected to notify IO that a foreigner is staying there.

Looks like Trad IO is totally out of bounds on this issue.

Note: Did you try registering the premisses on the IO TM-30 website?

Yes that sure does seem like an even greater hassle. Sorry to hear that. Hope you can get that sorted. Here I currently rent and they did report me. But prior to I had been registered at my condo and they told me I never had to report, even if I left the country, because I was registered at the condo I owned. So they sure seem to be taking a tough line there. Good luck.

[kuma]

5 hours ago, baansgr said:

Can the Village head explain point by point the process that will take 12 months and why it may not get approval? Of course your lawyer will know what to do. Seems like village mentality look after and protect our own at the expense of the Foreigner. 

This is the part that puzzles me and I want to follow up on. My wife is not from this Village, this Province, this Region so not a lot of bond there, and we have been together for over ten years and having a great time doing everything so that angle is not of great concern to me...if I am that blind to something like that going on after so much time then I guess I would deserve it lol.

Given that we have started the build (yesterday) the timing of all this is quite frustrating...months on this so far and this pops up on the day the construction team arrives and I have paid the first instalment. That sort of thing is grating....but yes it was their arrival that prompted the call from the Tessaban.

Anyway, trying to keep it in perspective, a hassle, but the place we have is perfect for us and hopefully I can find a way to make this as painless as possible.

Cheers

[kuma]

5 hours ago, KKr said:

Do you mean the Usufruct regulations do not apply ? 
to me it sounds like the village “head” is overstepping his authority.

This, so want to understand better then go to next steps.

Cheers

[kuma]

5 hours ago, KKr said:

<<Cannot edit apparently on mobile now >>
so correction here;

 

usufruct if I remember correctly allows for use of house, and house needs to be maintained, what may cause indeed legal question about ownership. 
Superficies means basically you can do as you please, and take house off at end of contract. 

 

any Lawyer on TV who can clarify ???

KKr thx, good point. We did talk about Superficies vs Usufruct before, and I do not recall the differences - but maybe this is why some had suggested Superficies being better than a Usufruct. Hope to learn more this week.

Cheers

[kuma]

17 minutes ago, spornb said:

Have built three houses here so far

 

Have Usufruct

 

Never done contract for the whole, always split it

 

1)  land clearance/fencing

 

2)Foundations and base level concrete

 

3)Walls and second floor

 

4)Roof

 

5) Electric and water

 

I have always signed the agreement, ( and drawn it up ) only pay enough to cover work completed, pay every two weeks ;  builder signs for money on each payment, enables switch contractor easily, usually have undefined bonus clause for final stage, also have penalty clause in  the event of major delay

 

11 yrs here and married to Thai so far so good

Spomb

Good job, that was a way I thought of going at one point, but I do not have the experience to be sure every contractor does to spec and that there was no issues on handoffs between teams so I went for the turnkey build. Hope you enjoyed it.

Interesting that you could sign every contract, that is what I envisioned here but so far no, see what happens next.

Thanks for the input.

[rumak]

22 hours ago, Matzzon said:

Yes, It´s will surely do. The good thing is that you have a usufruct that will give you the right to live in the place as long as you live or wish. That will also make it easier for you  to split the house and the land in two deeds at a later stage. However, some offices will agree to that and some will not. It will also depend on the piece of land, but please do not ask me how they will look at that. Have no clue.- ???? 

 

All answers so far seem from experienced and sensible people ( i never said that before ! ).

I also have experiences,  having dealt with land ownership/ usurfruct issues , as well as electric offices , water offices, tessabahns.    

The one thing I have learnt is that they always have different "answers"  and "this is the law"  type replies.   Certainly i would not waste money on a lawyer,  as their "opinion"  would not IMO be worth anything.    

I have always had a usufruct on the properties I'm on ,  but for me saw no benefit in having the house in my name.  Easiest way to go was always to have Thai family member as builder , blue book in their name .  I have a yellow book at one address.    As i  was the one dealing with tessabahns and land offices and utilities I learned to follow their wants,  but if a problem would seek out the head man(at whichever office) who more often than not helped me when others  said  "mai dai".

Trying to be as careful as possible is always a good idea........... but never a guarantee for success.

Here the question is with the poo yai bahn ?   Usually amphur or tessabahn is the higher authority,

BUT...... there are always face issues involved when going above someone

Edited October 25, 2020 by rumak

[rumak]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:03 PM, kuma said:

The Head said today he could approve the application to build immediately, if contract was in wifes name - but if it is in my name there is a process that could take up to 12 months and may not finally be approved.

this is confusing to me.   which "Head" ?    The tessabahn is the one that approves the house plans and grants you a permission to build.  No ?     

I never started building until i had the permission to build approved, signed,  and my copy

[khunPer]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:03 AM, kuma said:

Question please. Anyone have familiarity witu such a set up, and were you able to proceed with registration at the Tessaban?

You can/should make a superficies agreement, which allows you to be owner of a building on the land – however, you still don't own the land under the building. but the usufruct might secure that part – you can read more about superficies HERE:

 

Having the land and building separated with a new-build house, doesn't give you any registration in a land office. Your proof of ownership is, apart from a superficies agreement:

 

1. All architect drawings in your name.

2. Building permission in your name; a superficies will be needed for that – that might be why, your building constructor is skeptical about just putting your name in a contract – or a similar kind of contract/permission from the land owner. The architect applying for building permission, should be able to do the paperwork (did it excellent in my case)

3. Any construction contracts in your name (only).

4. All (major) payments for construction preferably as bank transfers from your personal bank account, or if paid cash then with a receipt in your name.

5. Keep all documentation/papers, they are your (only) proof of ownership.

6. Eventually be registered as "house master" when the Blue House Book is issued by tessa ban, it's not a proof of ownership, but might help as supplement, as it's proof of who can approve names to be added in the House Book.

 

You can legally own a house in Thailand, but not the land under the house. If ever re-sold, the land office should be able to register land and building in separate names.

 

The Yellow House Book for aliens/foreigners is just a proof of address, got nothing to do with a house, but handy for obtaining a piunk ID-card for foreigners, and easy proof of address.

????

 

 

[khunPer]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:03 AM, kuma said:

The Head said today he could approve the application to build immediately, if contract was in wifes name - but if it is in my name there is a process that could take up to 12 months and may not finally be approved.

 

Is anyone familiar with this contract issue ?

"Head" who, head-of-village?

 

Head-of-village should not approve or issue building permission, that's a job for the tessa ban office.

 

Sometimes, but not everywhere, the process can be little faster with a VIP-fee in an envelope (it did in my case, 10 days instead of up to eight weeks for a modest fee). Talk to your architect, he should be experienced in dealing with building permissions, and if he is local, he should know exactly how it works there...????

[kuma]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

this is confusing to me.   which "Head" ?    The tessabahn is the one that approves the house plans and grants you a permission to build.  No ?     

I never started building until i had the permission to build approved, signed,  and my copy

Rumak

Great input, thanks.

First, to clear up the Head, it is the Tessaban Nayok who is talking, and is also our neighbour. He has been very neighbourly to date and his team helpful (he has a large estate type place, with many people employed). The Tessaban has been very good as well, everyone we have chatted with, so yes I wish to not make a big deal.of this, but alao dont feel like being plowed over if indeed I can do it in my name. My thinking is edging towards not pushing it, as indeed rules here do vary in application all over the country. I do not want to interfere with our neighbourly relations as well, if it can be avoided....but do prefer to do what is my right. 

Appreciate all the unput and agree thia has been a very good thread with lots of useful input.

Cheers