Brexit negotiations restart in person as clock ticks down

[Hi from France]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So you support and advocate bullying then?

 

Thought so.

I think I already answered that (and directly to you), feel free to read this and tell me

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I think I already answered that (and directly to you), feel free to read this and tell me

 

 

 

Read and answer what?

[pacovl46]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Yes. The EU has never made any secret of the fact that it will be hurt too as a result of Brexit. It's just that the UK will be hurt far worse. It's a simple arithmetical question of size of their respective economies.

Exactly! 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

So you support and advocate bullying then?

 

Thought so.

It's just that we've seen claims from Brexiters that either Brexit will hurt the EU just as much as it hurts the UK and even more. Doesn't make much sense if the EU is in a position to be a bully.

 

 

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Read and answer what?

 

clic the link

[Hi from France]

40 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's just that we've seen claims from Brexiters that either Brexit will hurt the EU just as much as it hurts the UK and even more. Doesn't make much sense if the EU is in a position to be a bully.

 

relations between worlds powers are not the same as a school playground, do you get that ? 

 

Look at the maths this the EU / Britain : the ratio is one to six

 

X

X

X

X

X

X     X

 

 

Imagine you're playing football 2 against 12.. you have a goalie and one guy doing midfielder, defence and attack, against a normal team.

Which team will win ?

 

This is the situation brexiteers politicians have sold you as "take back control"

 

 

 

You are in quite the same situation against China and the USA, and they will be a bit more ruthless than the EU in dealing with the UK (or what's left of it). 

 

 

.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[placeholder]

26 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

 

relations between worlds powers are not the same as a school playground, do you get that ? 

 

Look at the maths this the EU / Britain : the ratio is one to six

 

X

X

X

X

X

X     X

 

 

Imagine you're playing football 2 against 12.. you have a goalie and one guy doing midfielder, defence and attack, against a normal team.

Which team will win ?

 

This is the situation brexiteers politicians have sold you as "take back control"

 

 

 

You are in quite the same situation against China and the USA, and they will be a bit more ruthless than the EU in dealing with the UK (or what's left of it). 

 

 

.

You should reread my post. You've understood it's sense exactly opposite to what it means.

Edited December 1, 2020 by placeholder

[Hi from France]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

You should reread my post. You've understood it's sense exactly opposite to what it means.

sure

 

now the demonstration is of interest for other readers as well

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Hi from France said:

sure

 

now the demonstration is of interest for other readers as well

I'm assuming you mean that you are sticking with your interpretation of what I wrote. 

Here once again is what I wrote

"It's just that we've seen claims from Brexiters that either Brexit will hurt the EU just as much as it hurts the UK and even more. Doesn't make much sense if the EU is in a position to be a bully."

 

It seems clear to me that what I'm saying is that Brexiters want it both ways. When they want to stress the UK's strength, they claim that Brexit will hurt the EU as much or as more than the UK.

When they want to stress justice, they claim that the EU is a bully. But for the EU to be a bully to the UK it has to be stronger. So there's a contradiction there.

[Hi from France]

i do not think this "bully" line of argumentation has any relevance: we are talking about relations between world powers "cold monsters", school playground vocabulary is irrelevant.

 

Quote

• . but anyway as you A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth

 

we can always talk about expectations of goodwill but between world powers there is no godwill, I'm sorry to be rude, but if a world power can beat another, sooner or later it will.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[melvinmelvin]

wuldna take much effort to turn the last cupla pages into a xmas play

 

[nauseus]

53 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

wuldna take much effort to turn the last cupla pages into a xmas play

 

 

Blighty and The Beast?

[billd766]

5 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

compared to the USA and China the EU is a very nice negociating partner, I know lots of posters here, like Loiner cannot understand that and see the EU as a kind of "nazi organization with tentacles" but it's very far from the truth.

The EU was created to promote peace after Europe was devastated by WW 2 and it is a "negociating machine" it's been striking trade and other cooperation deals all over the world for forty years (and the UK is loosing the benefit of these deals in a few weeks, we'll see what happens then).

two weeks ago, I  posted an inside view of the negociations 

 

quote from your post "The EU was created to promote peace after Europe was devastated by WW 2 and it is a "negociating machine" it's been striking trade and other cooperation deals all over the world for forty years (and the UK is loosing the benefit of these deals in a few weeks, we'll see what happens then)."

 

You really need to learn your history or do some research before you post.

 

Firstly the EU was not created just after WW2 but actually in 1993.

 

After the war NATO was formed to protect Europe and the other Nato countries (Google it) and not until 1950 and the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. 

 

In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

 

Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom join the European Union on 1 January 1973, raising the number of Member States to nine. Except that the EU itself still did not exist and the unon was still called the EEC or the Common Market.

 

The 1990s is also the decade of two treaties: the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union in 1993 and the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1999. The EU as it is now formally came into being with the signing of the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty.

 

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en

 

During all this time from the end of WW2 until the present day the defence of Europe is still in the hands of NATO as the EU still has no defence force of its own. Oddly enough even though the UK is leaving the EU this month, the UK still contributes to NATO and the defence of the EU, and is one of the few NATO contries to meet the 2% of their GDP towards the funding of NATO.

Edited December 1, 2020 by billd766
added extra text

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

So you support and advocate bullying then?

 

Thought so.

But you Brexiteers hold all the cards.

You said so before the referendum.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, kingdong said:

Not the big red bus regurgitated,

It was not I who brought the big red bus up!

 

Now, who was it? Oh yes:

On 11/30/2020 at 12:53 AM, kingdong said:

All going to the nhs? Oh give it a rest the wording on the big red  bus the symbol of democracy said COULD have been given to the nhs,you remainers do more twisting than chubby checker yes i did know what i voted for FREEDOM.

 Not the first time you've misquoted the bus and needed reminding of what Johnson actually said on the side of it.

 

21 hours ago, kingdong said:

read what it says" lets " not exactly a legally binding agreement

No; it was written on the side of a bus! But it was a commitment by Vote.Leave on what they would do with the money saved. Even though the actual amount was a lie!

 

21 hours ago, kingdong said:

anyway pales into insignificance when one considers the lies told by project fear.

Such as? But not projections of what might happen; actual lies.

 

Such as we'd still have unfettered access to the single market once we'd left the EU. Hang on, that was Gove and Vote.Leave!

 

 

[7by7]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

So who decides what is a level playing field? The EU,the UK or both? And what happens if neither can agree, as it is now?

 

Both.

 

I simply cannot comprehend Brexiteer antagonism to the level playing field. Surely they must realise that it's rules will apply to both sides?

 

Do they really want it to be possible for EU exporters to the UK to be heavily subsidised by their governments so they can undercut UK companies here in the UK and price them out of the market?

 

The same with the ECJ. All trade agreements need an arbitration body to rule on disputes. The ECJ already exists. Why create a new one? If we did; who would sit on it and who would pay for it?

 

 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Roman Law and the Idea of Europe - Kaius Tuori

 

Introduction (page 1, para 1, first sentence).

 

"This book explores the controversial role of ancient Rome and its legal heritage,
Roman law, in the making of the idea of a shared European legal tradition".

 

So where does it mention the EU and ECJ?

[david555]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/01/uk-likely-to-axe-finance-bill-clauses-if-brexit-trade-deal-made

 

UK likely to axe finance bill clauses if Brexit trade deal made

Content of legislation to be tabled next week depends on progress with EU in talks, sources say

 

Lisa O'Carroll, and Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Tue 1 Dec 2020 14.37 GMT

Last modified on Tue 1 Dec 2020 15.17 GMT

 

The UK is to table its long awaited finance bill next week but anticipated controversial clauses to override the Brexit withdrawal agreement are expected to be axed if a trade deal is struck beforehand.

 

The EU has warned that trade talks will be pulled immediately if the government goes ahead with a second batch of legislation granting itself unilateral powers to renege on part of the withdrawal agreement signed in January.

“If it violates the withdrawal agreement, it’s curtains, no deal,” said a senior Brussels source.

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

i do not think this "bully" line of argumentation has any relevance: we are talking about relations between world powers "cold monsters", school playground vocabulary is irrelevant.

 

 

How Should Europe Respond to Trump’s Bullying?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/opinion/europe-trump-bullying.html

I gather that English isn't your first language.

Trump's Visit Is a Reminder That Europe Is Being Bullied by America — And It Is Working

https://time.com/5598980/trump-europe-bullying/

Europe Has No Clue How to Handle an American Bully

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/05/02/europe-has-no-clue-how-to-handle-an-american-bully/

Why China bullies

https://www.economist.com/china/2020/06/18/why-china-bullies

[7by7]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

quote from your post "The EU was created to promote peace after Europe was devastated by WW 2 and it is a "negociating machine" it's been striking trade and other cooperation deals all over the world for forty years (and the UK is loosing the benefit of these deals in a few weeks, we'll see what happens then)."

 

You really need to learn your history or do some research before you post.

 

Firstly the EU was not created just after WW2 but actually in 1993.

 

After the war NATO was formed to protect Europe and the other Nato countries (Google it) and not until 1950 and the European Coal and Steel Community begins to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace. 

 

In 1957, the Treaty of Rome creates the European Economic Community (EEC), or ‘Common Market’.

 

Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom join the European Union on 1 January 1973, raising the number of Member States to nine. Except that the EU itself still did not exist and the unon was still called the EEC or the Common Market.

 

The 1990s is also the decade of two treaties: the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union in 1993 and the Treaty of Amsterdam in 1999. The EU as it is now formally came into being with the signing of the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty.

 

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en

 

During all this time from the end of WW2 until the present day the defence of Europe is still in the hands of NATO as the EU still has no defence force of its own. Oddly enough even though the UK is leaving the EU this month, the UK still contributes to NATO and the defence of the EU, and is one of the few NATO contries to meet the 2% of their GDP towards the funding of NATO.

 

"You really need to learn your history or do some research before you post." Bit pedantic of you, billd766.

 

As your link and post both say, the EU evolved out of the EEC, which evolved out of the European Coal and Steel Community. Which, as you and your link say, was formed in 1950 and began to to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

 

"The EU still has no defence force of its own." There's a few misinformed Brexiteers here who still refuse to accept that fact.

 

"Oddly enough even though the UK is leaving the EU this month, the UK still contributes to NATO and the defence of the EU." Why is that odd?

 

Not every NATO member is also an EU member and vice versa. The EU and NATO have 27 and 30 member states, respectively; of which 21 are members of both. The 6 EU members not in NATO are Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden. 

 

NATO is not just there for the defence of the EU! 

 

What is NATO; a political and military alliance.

 

NATO. Relations with the European Union

 

 

 

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, david555 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/01/uk-likely-to-axe-finance-bill-clauses-if-brexit-trade-deal-made

 

UK likely to axe finance bill clauses if Brexit trade deal made

Content of legislation to be tabled next week depends on progress with EU in talks, sources say

 

Lisa O'Carroll, and Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Tue 1 Dec 2020 14.37 GMT

Last modified on Tue 1 Dec 2020 15.17 GMT

 

The UK is to table its long awaited finance bill next week but anticipated controversial clauses to override the Brexit withdrawal agreement are expected to be axed if a trade deal is struck beforehand.

 

The EU has warned that trade talks will be pulled immediately if the government goes ahead with a second batch of legislation granting itself unilateral powers to renege on part of the withdrawal agreement signed in January.

“If it violates the withdrawal agreement, it’s curtains, no deal,” said a senior Brussels source.

 

Boffey Boffey Boffey  Oi Oi Oi

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

"You really need to learn your history or do some research before you post." Bit pedantic of you, billd766.

 

As your link and post both say, the EU evolved out of the EEC, which evolved out of the European Coal and Steel Community. Which, as you and your link say, was formed in 1950 and began to to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

 

"The EU still has no defence force of its own." There's a few misinformed Brexiteers here who still refuse to accept that fact.

 

"Oddly enough even though the UK is leaving the EU this month, the UK still contributes to NATO and the defence of the EU." Why is that odd?

 

Not every NATO member is also an EU member and vice versa. The EU and NATO have 27 and 30 member states, respectively; of which 21 are members of both. The 6 EU members not in NATO are Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden. 

 

NATO is not just there for the defence of the EU! 

 

What is NATO; a political and military alliance.

 

NATO. Relations with the European Union

 

 

 

 

Pedantic! ????

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

It was not I who brought the big red bus up!

 

Now, who was it? Oh yes:

 Not the first time you've misquoted the bus and needed reminding of what Johnson actually said on the side of it.

 

No; it was written on the side of a bus! But it was a commitment by Vote.Leave on what they would do with the money saved. Even though the actual amount was a lie!

 

Such as? But not projections of what might happen; actual lies.

 

Such as we'd still have unfettered access to the single market once we'd left the EU. Hang on, that was Gove and Vote.Leave!

 

 

Nit picking and clutching at straws,the proofs in the pudding,we,re leaving.

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

"You really need to learn your history or do some research before you post." Bit pedantic of you, billd766.

 

As your link and post both say, the EU evolved out of the EEC, which evolved out of the European Coal and Steel Community. Which, as you and your link say, was formed in 1950 and began to to unite European countries economically and politically in order to secure lasting peace.

thank you 

 

it's always astonishing how deficient basic culture about Europe in the brexiteer's UK is

 

. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hi from France

[7by7]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

Nit picking and clutching at straws,the proofs in the pudding,we,re leaving.

 

No, we are not leaving; we left at midnight on the 31st January 2020. Did you not notice?

 

We left because too many people fell for Vote.Leave's lies. That you have to now call pointing that out 'nit picking' and 'clutching at straws' is purely because otherwise you'd have to admit how foolish you were to fall for them!

 

We now have to make the best trade deal with the EU we can. 

[kingdong]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 

No, we are not leaving; we left at midnight on the 31st January 2020. Did you not notice?

 

We left because too many people fell for Vote.Leave's lies. That you have to now call pointing that out 'nit picking' and 'clutching at straws' is purely because otherwise you'd have to admit how foolish you were to fall for them!

 

We now have to make the best trade deal with the EU we can. 

Well the big red bus served its purpose and is now redundant,we could always knock that out to a brexit party in one of the eu states,that,d be a start

[billd766]

14 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Pedantic! ????

I merely pointed out to Hi from France was not correct in what he wrote and that several parts of his post were not correct.

 

Now 49 has jumped in and calls me pedantic. 55555

 

I have merely scanned his post (he is on my ignore list).

 

quote from his post "The EU still has no defence force of its own." There's a few misinformed Brexiteers here who still refuse to accept that fact."

 

So where is the proof of the EU defence force, links etc.

 

Without proof he has no arguement which is why he is on my ignore list and I used your post to reply to him?

 

My apologies,

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I merely pointed out to Hi from France was not correct in what he wrote and that several parts of his post were not correct.

You're fine really, you are contributing seriously and you're welcome correcting my mistakes ????

 

From remote Thailand, did your position on Brexit change since 2016? Do you think the UK is getting now what was promised then?

[7by7]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

I merely pointed out to Hi from France was not correct in what he wrote and that several parts of his post were not correct.

 

Now 49 has jumped in and calls me pedantic. 55555

I called you pedantic because I believed you were being so; for the reasons I gave.

 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

quote from his post "The EU still has no defence force of its own." There's a few misinformed Brexiteers here who still refuse to accept that fact."

 

So where is the proof of the EU defence force, links etc.

 

Apols, I wasn't clear; there is, of course, an EU defence force; the European Defence Agency. 

Quote

The European Defence Agency (EDA) is an intergovernmental agency of the Council of the European Union. Currently, 26 countries – all EU Member States except Denmark – participate in EDA.

 The UK was in the EDA prior to Brexit, and the October 2019 Political Declaration accompanying the Withdrawal Agreement expresses the intention of the UK and the EU to “support ambitious, close and lasting cooperation on external threats”. (Source) 

 

However, I made an assumption; which was wrong of me. I assumed that you meant an actual EU army independent of member state's governments and answerable to the Commission alone. That, of course, is an absurd notion; but one which certain Brexiteers here, including @nauseus on whom you rely to see my posts, still adhere to despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I have merely scanned his post (he is on my ignore list).......

Without proof he has no arguement which is why he is on my ignore list and I used your post to reply to him?

When I post opinions I try as often as I can to post links which support my opinion. But an opinion is not a fact.

 

When I post facts, I always provide links as proof of those facts; as I have above and in my previous to which you are responding.

 

I have never understood, and never will understand, the need some posters have to use the ignore list. Personally, if another poster challenges my opinions then I'd rather stay and fight my corner than run away and hide.

 

Could someone not on his ignore list please quote this so billd766 can see it?

[nauseus]

39 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

I called you pedantic because I believed you were being so; for the reasons I gave.

 

 

Apols, I wasn't clear; there is, of course, an EU defence force; the European Defence Agency. 

 The UK was in the EDA prior to Brexit, and the October 2019 Political Declaration accompanying the Withdrawal Agreement expresses the intention of the UK and the EU to “support ambitious, close and lasting cooperation on external threats”. (Source) 

 

However, I made an assumption; which was wrong of me. I assumed that you meant an actual EU army independent of member state's governments and answerable to the Commission alone. That, of course, is an absurd notion; but one which certain Brexiteers here, including @nauseus on whom you rely to see my posts, still adhere to despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

When I post opinions I try as often as I can to post links which support my opinion. But an opinion is not a fact.

 

When I post facts, I always provide links as proof of those facts; as I have above and in my previous to which you are responding.

 

I have never understood, and never will understand, the need some posters have to use the ignore list. Personally, if another poster challenges my opinions then I'd rather stay and fight my corner than run away and hide.

 

Could someone not on his ignore list please quote this so billd766 can see it?

 

It seems that you include my ID "nauseus" intentionally so that I will not only read this absurd rubbish, but also repost it, which I certainly won't be doing.

 

Choose another bait but make it tasty.