UK tells EU: back down by Sunday night or we'll walk

[onthedarkside]

A post with flame comments toward another member has been removed along with ensuing replies.

 

Keep it civil here folks. Discuss the topic, not each other, or you'll be taking a Brexit holiday.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Correct.

 

The problem being that nearly every Leave voter had/has a different opinion of what that would represent.

 

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

For the Remainers, the indications/plans were very clear, impossible to misinterpret :

 

" Nothing will change ".

 

This is simply not true. I can give you examples that will clearly show this.

 

Would you like to debate this and show your evidence. I assure you I can.

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

stated and still believe that the Leavers voters had different reason to vote Leave, there is no way one can proof the contrary.

No you stated that the leavers reasons were not clear the remain was. i gave you two examples and there are countless more of the PM David Cameron telling everyone what the vote meant. For leavers and remain. that is clear as anything, Not a perception. Stated fact.

 

3 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Once again, my posts are impartial, and I don't accept rudeness. I am 72+, old school, hate bad manners and discourtesy.

There was no intention to be rude. I call myself traditional so also old school.

I believe a difference in translation such as the word Tosh. It means rubbish for me and not offensive at all where i am from.

 

4 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Once again, my posts are impartial

How can your posts be impartial when you are giving your opinion. Such as remain sides plans were clear and leave wasn't.

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

If you not prepare to apologize for your rudeness, I will simply ignore you. I was educated with values and want to keep them.

Ignore me if you feel you need to. Again no rudeness intended and if its an apology you need, to feel better fine. I apologise.

 

So now will you apologise that you can't be impartial putting misinformation up. The facts are there all over the net. David Cameron and what he said voting in the referendum was all about. You say you are old school. Admitting that you are wrong, is a old school trait.

[sandyf]

On 12/15/2020 at 1:40 PM, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Brexit was delivered .

That was all that was promised .

Wrong, Brexit was only half delivered.

Issues that were not within the WA had a grace period on existing agreements. When that grace period expires and without further agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

There way well be a fallback on trade through the WTO, but of little use if transport cannot move.

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, Surelynot said:

I see even No 10 has given up on "Australian" terms

Another lie exposed.

Australia may use WTO but they have many agreements with the EU to back it up.

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Another lie exposed.

Australia may use WTO but they have many agreements with the EU to back it up.

Yes...read that the other day......but we now live in a post Trumpian (dystopian) world where Tories just say what they want.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-activists-trump-wellingborough-fake-news-b1774341.html

Edited December 16, 2020 by Surelynot

[luckyluke]

I appreciate your excuse, and accept them.

Now I will explain myself and hope you understand :

Leave voters wanted to leave the E.U., no doubt about that.

From what I read here on this forum, and other places.

Some Britons were not happy with the presence of E.U. workers, stealing their job, a reason to vote Leave.

Some had enough that so much money was going to the E.U. instead to be used for a better wellness of Britons, a reason to vote Leave.

Some Britons attached a great importance to sovereignty, they are convinced that a real sovereignty is not possible when being part of the E.U., a reason  to vote Leave.

Some hated simply to be what they considered  manipulated by the Brussels bureaucrats, a reason to vote Leave.

There may be other reasons.

While among the Remainers, there were for sure some with the same grieves, all were convinced of one thing : No change.

I hope this give a clearer view why I am convinced and expressed my opinion that Leavers had more than one reason to vote Leave.

So I don't see why this should be catalogued as misinformation.

 

 

[CorpusChristie]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Wrong, Brexit was only half delivered.

Issues that were not within the WA had a grace period on existing agreements. When that grace period expires and without further agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

There way well be a fallback on trade through the WTO, but of little use if transport cannot move.

 

   No, I am right, the UK completely left the E.U in January .

Yes, we know that we will get no food, medicine and fuel from Europe and many Brits will either starve or freeze to death or die in hospitals because we cannot import any anti biotics .

   Millions will probably die , but it will be worth it 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

I appreciate your excuse, and accept them.

Now I will explain myself and hope you understand :

Leave voters wanted to leave the E.U., no doubt about that.

From what I read here on this forum, and other places.

Some Britons were not happy with the presence of E.U. workers, stealing their job, a reason to vote Leave.

Some had enough that so much money was going to the E.U. instead to be used for a better wellness of Britons, a reason to vote Leave.

Some Britons attached a great importance to sovereignty, they are convinced that a real sovereignty is not possible when being part of the E.U., a reason  to vote Leave.

Some hated simply to be what they considered  manipulated by the Brussels bureaucrats, a reason to vote Leave.

There may be other reasons.

While among the Remainers, there were for sure some with the same grieves, all were convinced of one thing : No change.

I hope this give a clearer view why I am convinced and expressed my opinion that Leavers had more than one reason to vote Leave.

So I don't see why this should be catalogued as misinformation.

 

 

I have had many conversations with leave voters at our local pub over a beer or two.  We all live in the same place  and many of us are involved in local sporting organisations and charities.  There are many arguments for leaving the EU and for remaining as well.  The area generally has more remainers living here than leavers due to it being in the London commuter belt.

 

The discussions are often lively with most people being able to hold their ground well enough.  Whilst some will be affected more than others we are all pretty much in the same boat as to the fallout from Brexit itself.  After Brexit happened there was some muted celebrations from the leave voters here but it was countered by concern as to where we would end up.  Everyone I know expected a deal as promised by the various spokes people.

 

Over the last few weeks, talk of Brexit has dried up completely, partly because of Covid, but mainly because people are holding their breath and  hoping that the deal done will be workable.  Everyone agrees there will be a deal done, it's just how watered down it will turn out to be. 

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  And from the results show , in the poll  from December 2020 shows 54 % of people thought leaving the E.U was a bad idea , that was during the last election period when an overwhelming majority of people voted for Brexit , by way of election .

  The small poll says one thing , the General election says something different .

Which one to believe ?

A General election when the whole Country is asked or a poll when a few people are asked ?

You and the guys who applaud this post know that opinion polls and elections are not the same thing at all don't you?

 

A few years ago Trump was elected president of the USA while he had 2.5 millions votes less than Clinton, in britain you have a first pass the post system.

 

A poll is targeted on a special issue, it's not the same as a limited choice of candidates, not to mention smiling "man-of-the-people" Boris versus Corbyn.

 

 

So when you claim elections give you a better view of the opinion of citizens than a poll based on a precise issue it's false.

 

All you can claim is "last elections put extremist Brexiteers in power, fooled you, too late pal" ! 

 

That you can do ????

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

in britain you have a first pass the post system

 

   No we do not, we have proportional representation, just like the USA

[7by7]

17 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

21 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

in britain you have a first pass the post system

 

   No we do not, we have proportional representation, just like the USA

 

General Elections in the UK are decided by the first past the post system.

 

In each constituency the candidate with the most votes wins the seat; even if they've polled less than 50% of the vote.

 

In Parliament the party with the most seats forms the government; unless no one party has an overall majority in which case we get a coalition such as that in 2010.

 

The same for local elections in England and Wales with some exceptions such as the London Assembly.

 

Various forms of PR are used for other elections such as the Scottish Parliament, Northern Ireland Assembly and Welsh Assembly. See Voting systems in the UK.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   No we do not, we have proportional representation, just like the USA

What?!

[CorpusChristie]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What?!

 

  Fair enough, I got that wrong . 

Got my terms  muddled up 

[CorpusChristie]

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

first what allows you to use the "we"?

 

besides the obvious fact that a majority of the population is against brexit , 

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/?removed 

 

 

so who is your "we" ? obviously not the majority of the UK population (even less Northern Ireland or Scotland who ironically are more pro-EU than most EU countries)

 

 

 

 

 

now beside not wanting to leave the EU (too late now!) the second question now is "do we want to follow UE rules" ? As you say 

 

on this question, we have polls too

 

 

 

there, once the UK citizen are obliged to leave, it's a fifty-fifty "follow EU rules" or "not follow"

 

 

 

so, I leave it to you to use bayesian inference and calculate what actual percentage of the population is your "We don't want to follow them"...

 

 

in terms of pollution, carbon dioxide emission, workers right, protection of privacy etc.. EU rules can actually be considered pretty cool. Now, the UK could do faster and better on things like animal welfare (but then, forget about chlorinated chicken and a FTA with the USA)

 

 

 

A third question would be 

 

.. but are you going to follow them anyway. As the previous podcast shows, the UK has paid a huge price for the right to diverge.

 

 

 

 

The question of future years is "now it can, will the UK diverge or not" ? Given that the present deal will put a price tag on divergence, that remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Every hypothetical divergence would a/ be payed by the british worker/taxpayer and b/ won't even deliver a competitive advantage

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   You are trying use that graph to show the UK doesnt agree with leaving the E.U anymore. 

But that wasnt the question asked . 

The question asked was :

"In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?"

And the people who had no preference , those who didnt vote in the referendum , they would probably have thought that the vote to leave was wrong , because of all the commotion , stagnation and disagreement it has caused  .

  So, the results/Graph doesnt show that the UK thinks it was wrong to leave the EU , some neutral voters may have felt a Remain vote would have been preferably , just for the peace and quiet .

  So, people with no opinion on Brexit would have said the vote for Brexit was wrong because of the turmoil that vote caused . 

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Fair enough, I got that wrong . 

Got my terms  muddled up 

We all make mistakes but few admit it when they do, so hat of to you.

[CG1 Blue]

9 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Correct.

 

The problem being that nearly every Leave voter had/has a different opinion of what that would represent.

 

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

For the Remainers, the indications/plans were very clear, impossible to misinterpret :

 

" Nothing will change ".

 

As far as I understand the NHS has received more funding - more than our annual EU contribution. 

 

And as for your claim that if we remained "Nothing will change" - really?  So the EU will stay exactly as it is? No further reforms? No 'ever closer union'? I think not! 

[CG1 Blue]

5 hours ago, luckyluke said:

I appreciate your excuse, and accept them.

Now I will explain myself and hope you understand :

Leave voters wanted to leave the E.U., no doubt about that.

From what I read here on this forum, and other places.

Some Britons were not happy with the presence of E.U. workers, stealing their job, a reason to vote Leave.

Some had enough that so much money was going to the E.U. instead to be used for a better wellness of Britons, a reason to vote Leave.

Some Britons attached a great importance to sovereignty, they are convinced that a real sovereignty is not possible when being part of the E.U., a reason  to vote Leave.

Some hated simply to be what they considered  manipulated by the Brussels bureaucrats, a reason to vote Leave.

There may be other reasons.

While among the Remainers, there were for sure some with the same grieves, all were convinced of one thing : No change.

I hope this give a clearer view why I am convinced and expressed my opinion that Leavers had more than one reason to vote Leave.

So I don't see why this should be catalogued as misinformation.

 

 

Sorry, but this nonsense has to stop. There are also countless reasons why people voted remain! Some were valid, some were just ridiculous. I heard people saying they voted remain because they liked going on holiday in Spain, or they like French food! 

 

Why keep going on about different reasons for voting leave? Both sides' voters had different reasons, but both sides voted for one of two outcomes - Leave or Remain! 

[Loiner]

43 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sorry, but this nonsense has to stop. There are also countless reasons why people voted remain! Some were valid, some were just ridiculous. I heard people saying they voted remain because they liked going on holiday in Spain, or they like French food! 

 

Why keep going on about different reasons for voting leave? Both sides' voters had different reasons, but both sides voted for one of two outcomes - Leave or Remain! 

Sorry, but Remainer and Euro nonsense is not going to stop any time soon. They've been at it for over 5 years now and still not got over that they lost.  You can still see it in their posts even at this late stage.

 

"Brexiteers didn't understand...blah blaa were lied to...blah blah are all stupid... blah blah it was only advisory... blah blah it wasn't 50%... blah blah depriving our grandkids... blah blah don't care about EU immigrants... blah blah don't care about our exchange rate...blah blah we can forecast the economic future but you can't...blah blah it's only a few fish... blah blah it's all because of Boris... blah blah it's all because of the big red bus... blah blah we will become international pariahs... blah blah we're nothing without the EU superstate... blah blah we told you the sky will fall in... blah blah waycist fascist xenophobe bigots"

 

They will go on, and on, and on, regurgitating the same old nonsense ad infinitum. It's just the type of people they are.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Loiner

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Fair enough, I got that wrong . 

Got my terms  muddled up 

No surprise there.

Your words - "   No, I am right, the UK completely left the E.U in January ."

 

Obviously you believe the transition period was fake news, or "completely" muddled up.

[CorpusChristie]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

No surprise there.

Your words - "   No, I am right, the UK completely left the E.U in January ."

 

Obviously you believe the transition period was fake news, or "completely" muddled up.

 

  No, the E.U wouldnt negotiate any new terns until the UK left the E.U .

The transition period is the time between when the UK left the E.U and when the new agreements are agreed upon .

The UK left the EU, but remains a member of the single market and customs union , until new agreements are made 

[Tofer]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:59 PM, RayC said:

Or in other words: I don't have a consistent argument.

 

Not at all. You're just not worth arguing with.

 

There's no convincing people like you, who are determined to see the negative in everything, and consistently quote history to try to prove your opinion. What you don't seem to realise is it is exactly that - HISTORY!

 

WE'VE LEFT - Get over yourself and start supporting your country for a change.

[Tofer]

On 12/14/2020 at 8:57 PM, Rookiescot said:

So yet ANOTHER of Johnsons deadlines came and went and hes still begging the EU for a deal.

All these arguments put forward by Brexiteers are asinine. This talk about respecting UK sovereignty. Hey you guys knew the EU's position before the referendum. They told you all what you would need to give up in order to access the single market as a third country. 

Instead you guys chose to believe the meaningless slogans. You chose to believe a man sacked twice for lying. You chose to believe a charlatan like Farage. Or that sleekit Gove.

All those guys care about things like continued access to tax havens not whats in the best interest of the UK.

Then you all doubled down by voting for them again in a general election because they had an oven ready deal.

We are well and truly down the rabbit hole now. Or up a certain creek without a paddle.

Still bluff and bluster will get us through eh? I mean its worked so well so far. 

 

Whine, whine, whine....????

[Kwasaki]

Seen on news just now my mate Boris said it looks likely a deal will done. 

[Bruntoid]

22 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Sorry, but this nonsense has to stop. There are also countless reasons why people voted remain! Some were valid, some were just ridiculous. I heard people saying they voted remain because they liked going on holiday in Spain, or they like French food! 

 

Why keep going on about different reasons for voting leave? Both sides' voters had different reasons, but both sides voted for one of two outcomes - Leave or Remain! 

I’ve heard leavers say they voted leave as there were too many Indians and Pakistanis in the U.K. !! ????

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

I’ve heard leavers say they voted leave as there were too many Indians and Pakistanis in the U.K. !! ????

From HMG today:

UK sets out strategy for most effective border in the world by 2025

Quote

Government publishes 2025 UK Border Strategy setting out vision for world’s most effective border.

 

When I read this bit I had my doubts.....

Quote

This new strategy sets out how the government will work with industry to harness innovative technology to help UK businesses take full advantage of new trading relationships with the rest of the world. It will provide smoother passenger journeys through ports, strengthen the UK’s ability to target criminal activity, and help tackle illegal migration.

 

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

I’ve heard leavers say they voted leave as there were too many Indians and Pakistanis in the U.K. !! ????

Good for you, but totally irrelevant to the point I was making

[7by7]

17 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

No, the E.U wouldnt negotiate any new terns until the UK left the E.U .

 

I assume you mean a trade agreement, as the terms of the withdrawal agreement had officially been under negotiation ever since May first triggered Article 50 on the  29th March 2017! Although formal negotiations didn't begin until 19th June 2017.

 

It was not that the EU wouldn't begin trade negotiations until after we left; it was agreed by both sides that UK/EU trade negotiations while  we were still a member would be awkward at the very least as we would have had a foot in both camps.

 

17 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

The transition period is the time between when the UK left the E.U and when the new agreements are agreed upon .

 No.

 

The transition period ends at midnight on the 31st December 2020, unless both sides agree to extend it.

 

17 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

The UK left the EU, but remains a member of the single market and customs union , until new agreements are made 

No.

 

We remain members of the single market and customs union until midnight on the 31st December 2020, unless both sides agree to extend the transition period.

 

 

[transam]

14 hours ago, Bruntoid said:

I’ve heard leavers say they voted leave as there were too many Indians and Pakistanis in the U.K. !! ????

Where was that, in a takeaway....?  

[simple1]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:30 AM, Loiner said:

Sorry, but Remainer and Euro nonsense is not going to stop any time soon. They've been at it for over 5 years now and still not got over that they lost.  You can still see it in their posts even at this late stage.

 

"Brexiteers didn't understand...blah blaa were lied to...blah blah are all stupid... blah blah it was only advisory... blah blah it wasn't 50%... blah blah depriving our grandkids... blah blah don't care about EU immigrants... blah blah don't care about our exchange rate...blah blah we can forecast the economic future but you can't...blah blah it's only a few fish... blah blah it's all because of Boris... blah blah it's all because of the big red bus... blah blah we will become international pariahs... blah blah we're nothing without the EU superstate... blah blah we told you the sky will fall in... blah blah waycist fascist xenophobe bigots"

 

They will go on, and on, and on, regurgitating the same old nonsense ad infinitum. It's just the type of people they are.

 

Leavers never stop whining about Remainers.

Edited December 18, 2020 by simple1