Explainer: Can anything stop Trump from pardoning his family or even himself?

[Eric Loh]

48 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

He's been charged with many crimes.  Look at my last post.  Sadly, he's good at negotiating settlements. 

 

Right now, he's untouchable.  Just wait until Jan 20.  As you know, there are dozens of lawsuits waiting for him.  Hopefully, some will involve obstruction of justice.  As pointed out by Mueller.  And ignored by Mitch.

Mueller was affirmative when asked the question whether Trump can be indicted after he leave office. One way or the other, Trump will not escape accountability for his misdeeds. Biden will not tell DOJ what to do and he categorically stated that if the investigation occurred and determined, those people will be prosecuted even if it involves a former president or his associates. Justice will be served. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2019-07-24/robert-mueller-trump-could-be-indicted-after-leaving-office

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I don't accept the underlying premise...but seeing how the Democrat Party tried to twist the Russian collusion delusion into an ultimately unsuccessful impeachment, I wouldn't put it past a partisan Democrat federal prosecutor to gin up a "treason" indictment against Trump during the Biden regime. So yes, I would be perfectly fine with the President issuing a proscriptive pardon for any and all of his actions while in office.

He really don't need a proscriptive pardon if he is not guilty. 

[cmarshall]

15 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

The opportunities for abuse are almost endless, and it took someone totally lacking in any morals to shine light on how silly the pardon power is.

 

The US will emerge with new limits on the pardon power, perhaps even grandfathered back to 45's many pardons.  if not, I fear a return to frontier justice, where some will take it on to themselves to make the guilty pay for crimes they committed, by were absolved of because of abuse of the system.

 

Completely impossible.  Only an amendment to the Constitution can change the pardoning power and none of us will ever live to see another amendment to the Constitution given the political polarization that can be expected to extend out to the horizon.  

 

It's possible, even likely, that the Supreme Court might rule a self-pardon as unconstitutional, but that would not be a "new limit" on the pardoning power, since prevailing legal opinion has never accepted the legitimacy of a self-pardon.  

 

The pardoning power is just one of those fundamental defects in the sloppy US Constitution that cannot now be fixed along with the Electoral College, the equal allocation of seats in the Senate by state, life-time tenure of Supreme Court justices, etc.  Because the Framers of the Constitution were especially fearful of the threat to their power and wealth posed by democracy, they stuck us not only with these anti-democratic features, but took pains to make the US Constitution so difficult to amend, that it became the most difficult to amend in the world.

 

What is needed is a new constitutional convention to write a new constitution from scratch.  Such a constitutional convention would, like the Constitutional Convention of 1787 and the Continental Congress of 1776, be entirely illegal.

Edited December 25, 2020 by cmarshall

[simple1]

3 hours ago, tonray said:

He is going to do it because at this  point there is zero downside to doing it. If it works and provides protection then he wins, the only way it won't work is if challenged and invalidated in the courts, which would be the same as if he never did it. Nothing to lose....but America loses. Two Justice systems...one for rich and elite and another for the rest of us idiots....shame on America.

 

 

As I understand there is a benefit for the justice system, those pardoned cannot plead the 5th Amendment

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

In his final presidential decree, he shall award himself with ultimate power. There's just no stopping him. ????

 

Hah, Manafort. The sleazy used car salesman. With a wardrobe full of tacky, sleazy, used car salesman suits, the feds found when they raided his apartment. Now free to be a sleazy used car salesman again, maybe this time with real estate. He'll make a killing with these Covid deals to be had.

 

Nixon was forced to resign for far less. What a disgrace.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

So you understand the difference between criminal charges and civil lawsuits? Did you see where I referenced criminal charges...or was that filtered out by your <deleted> tinged glasses? Do you also understand we are talking about Trump's actions during his 4 years in office?

Just wait.  Let's have this conversation in a month...the NY AG has a NYE present waiting for him. Along with many others looking for justice.

 

He did commit obstruction of justice, but as president, the DOJ wouldn't charge him.  Figures.

[Phoenix Rising]

21 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I don't accept the underlying premise...but seeing how the Democrat Party tried to twist the Russian collusion delusion into an ultimately unsuccessful impeachment, I wouldn't put it past a partisan Democrat federal prosecutor to gin up a "treason" indictment against Trump during the Biden regime. So yes, I would be perfectly fine with the President issuing a proscriptive pardon for any and all of his actions while in office.

Yes, of course you would. Let's hope that President Elect Biden will arrange for an unredacted Mueller report to be published and for trump and others to be tried , convicted and sentenced to life in prison for treason.

[Jeffr2]

22 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I don't accept the underlying premise...but seeing how the Democrat Party tried to twist the Russian collusion delusion into an ultimately unsuccessful impeachment, I wouldn't put it past a partisan Democrat federal prosecutor to gin up a "treason" indictment against Trump during the Biden regime. So yes, I would be perfectly fine with the President issuing a proscriptive pardon for any and all of his actions while in office.

Twist twist the Russian case?  Delusion?  Seriously?

[TopDeadSenter]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

Ukraine is similar. All the evidence points to a quid pro quo

Correct, he was caught on video bragging about it. something like - I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money, Well, son of a <potty mouthed profanity removed>  he got fired.

 

But this time you are at least half correct. It was certainly quid pro quo-ing, but it was the wrong perpetrator. This is not a thread about the Bidens overseas escapades and adventures. There are no threads on that for some reason.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Another amateur TV lawyer...the House bill of impeachment is the bringing of charges against a president (like a prosecutor bringing an indictment) and the Senate proceeding was the equilivent of the trial...where, of course, he was not impeached but acquitted (found NOT GUILTY).

The body that overseas criminal activity by a president is congress.   He was charged by Congress and CONVICTED by the House.  He was not found NOT GUILTY by the Senate, he simply was not removed from office.   

He was and remains impeached.   

Edited December 25, 2020 by Credo

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Correct, he was caught on video bragging about it. something like - I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money, Well, son of a <potty mouthed profanity removed>  he got fired.

 

But this time you are at least half correct. It was certainly quid pro quo-ing, but it was the wrong perpetrator. This is not a thread about the Bidens overseas escapades and adventures. There are no threads on that for some reason.

Do you have a credible link for this?

[placeholder]

Actually 2 quid pros.  One by Biden on behalf of the United States government and the other by Trump on behalf of himself

[kwonitoy]

2 hours ago, Kelsall said:

Please provide a document that shows the charge, the date of conviction, and the sentence.

I'll get back to you after Jan 21st.

[Pattaya Spotter]

41 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Just wait.  Let's have this conversation in a month...the NY AG has a NYE present waiting for him. Along with many others looking for justice.

 

He did commit obstruction of justice, but as president, the DOJ wouldn't charge him.  Figures.

But we're not having this conversation in a month...we're having it now.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, Kelsall said:

Please provide the charge, the date of conviction, and the sentence.

I posted a link showing all his criminal activities.  More than any other president ever.

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

But we're not having this conversation in a month...we're having it now.

Not sure why you're standing up for this guy so much?  He's a criminal now handing out pardons to other criminals.  Stunning how anyone can be OK with this.  Especially when he proclaims to be a "law and order" president.  Right...

[cmarshall]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I posted a link showing all his criminal activities.  More than any other president ever.

 

You are confusing criminal prosecution with private lawsuits. Big difference.  I don't believe that Trump has ever been indicted for a criminal offense.

[Pattaya Spotter]

36 minutes ago, Credo said:

The body that overseas criminal activity by a president is congress.   He was charged by Congress and CONVICTED by the House.  He was not found NOT GUILTY by the Senate, he simply was not removed from office.   

He was and remains impeached.   

"Convicted" by the House...no; they voted to send articles of impeachment to the Senate. The Senate then voted not to convict on them. If you mean "impeachment/impeached" as the House bringing the Articles, then you are correct. However, as you know, he was not convicted and removed from office.

 

Impeachment in the United States is the process by which a legislature (usually in the form of the lower house) brings charges against a civil officer of government for crimes alleged to have been committed, analogous to the bringing of an indictment by a grand jury. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Impeachment in the United States is the process by which,indictment by a grand jury.

[PatOngo]

2 hours ago, Kelsall said:

Please provide the charge, the date of conviction, and the sentence.

Only Joe is smelling napalm in the morning, it's the smell of victory! 

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I posted a link showing all his criminal activities.  More than any other president ever.

 

  You didnt , you just posted a link to Trumps and his Companies  legal actions over his lifetime .

Going to Court to settle contract disputes cannot be regarded as "criminal activity" . 

  Settling person injury claims with people who got injured whilst on his property, cannot be regarded as criminal activities 

[Pattaya Spotter]

32 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not sure why you're standing up for this guy so much?  He's a criminal now handing out pardons to other criminals.  Stunning how anyone can be OK with this.  Especially when he proclaims to be a "law and order" president.  Right...

Please reference a criminal case filed by any state or federal prosecutor against the President for any actions on his part during his presidency. Please also state the disposition of the case, i.e., dismissal, plea bargain, or conviction. If you can not do so, please do not refer to the president of the United States as a "criminal." You're giving criminals a good name...someone not charged or convicted of a crime. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Pattaya Spotter

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Please reference a criminal case filed by any state or federal prosecutor against the President for any actions on his part during his presidency. Please also state the disposition of the case, i.e., dismissal, plea bargain, or conviction. If you can not do so, please do not refer to the president of the United States as a "criminal." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/19/nyregion/trump-fraud-investigations-taxes.html

Trump Tax Write-Offs Are Ensnared in 2 New York Fraud Investigations

Inquiries into the president and his businesses, one criminal and one civil, are now looking at tax deductions taken on consulting fees. Some of the payments appear to have gone to Ivanka Trump.

[Jeffr2]

https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/politics/new-york-city/trumps-potential-new-york-legal-woes.html

Trump’s potential New York legal woes

The president is the subject of several investigations in the Empire State.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/19/nyregion/trump-fraud-investigations-taxes.html

Trump Tax Write-Offs Are Ensnared in 2 New York Fraud Investigations

Inquiries into the president and his businesses, one criminal and one civil, are now looking at tax deductions taken on consulting fees. Some of the payments appear to have gone to Ivanka Trump.

 

Still in the investigation stage.  No indictment has been brought against Trump or anyone else.  Yet.

[Jeffr2]

 

Just now, cmarshall said:

 

Still in the investigation stage.  No indictment has been brought against Trump or anyone else.  Yet.

Yeah, because you can't indict a sitting president.  Otherwise, he'd probably be in jail.  You do understand that, right?

[Sujo]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Please reference a criminal case filed by any state or federal prosecutor against the President for any actions on his part during his presidency. Please also state the disposition of the case, i.e., dismissal, plea bargain, or conviction. If you can not do so, please do not refer to the president of the United States as a "criminal." 

He is a criminal. He is yet to be a convicted criminal, but still a criminal.

 

 

[Psimbo]

Pretty clear who the Trumpettes are on here. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

MAGA (Making America Gag Again.) 

[PatOngo]

11 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  You didnt , you just posted a link to Trumps and his Companies  legal actions over his lifetime .

Going to Court to settle contract disputes cannot be regarded as "criminal activity" . 

  Settling person injury claims with people who got injured whilst on his property, cannot be regarded as criminal activities 

Does paying $130,000 via Michael Cohen to silence Stormy Daniels count?

[CorpusChristie]

2 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

Does paying $130,000 via Michael Cohen to silence Stormy Daniels count?

 

  Trump reimbursed Cohens expenses in his dealings with an actress 

[PatOngo]

Just now, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Trump reimbursed Cohens expenses in his dealings with an actress 

Pretty expensive encounter, Stormy had a nice win!