Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, puchooay said:

Excellent. So does that mean SNP ministers will now stop attending sessions at Westminster?

I don't believe any SNP MPs are ministers, but they will stop attending Westminster if we are no longer party to its convention. 

[2530Ubon]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

Which brings me to my rather important salient point, when in 2014 the Scots voted to leave the UK they were also voting to leave the EU, they

It could be considered salient if it was accurate - Not at all at the same time. The  EU vote was a full 2 years after the indyref.

 

In fact, the referendum hadn't been announced until 27th May 2015. Cameron didn't win the general election until 2015 too - He made a promise in 2013 to hold a referendum on EU membership IF the conservatives won the next election... In 2015.

 

So unless the Scots had a crystal ball and knew the conservatives were going to win, knew that David Cameron would actually keep his promise (politicians aren't well known for that) and knew the UK would vote to leave, then one could hardly say both issues were running at the same time.

 

It was also possible for Scotland to remain within the EU upon leaving the UK in 2014.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26173004

"There is, within the EU Treaties, a legal framework by which Scotland, a country that has been an integral part of the EU for 40 years, may make the transition to independent EU membership in the period between the referendum and the date on which Scotland becomes an independent state. Article 48 provides a suitable legal route to facilitate the transition process, by allowing the EU Treaties to be amended through ordinary revision procedure before Scotland becomes independent, to enable it to become a member state at the point of independence.

"There is no Treaty provision that would require Scotland to leave the EU on independence."

Edited January 23, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

I doubt if any remainer or Euro were even interested in Scotland before we successfully voted to leave the EU, it has suddenly become the Jewel in the Crown of many on here who wish to see the UK implode on itself because it had the audacity to democratically vote to leave the EU. 

Which brings me to my rather important salient point, when in 2014 the Scots voted to leave the UK they were also voting to leave the EU, they were non so bothered about the rest of the UK and remaining in the EU then were they? 

Things change every day, we cannot go on forever blaming everything on Brexit, if not Brexit it would have been covid, if not covid it might even been Rangers beating Celtic, there will always be an excuse. 

The SNP are just turning into a giant parody of the Scottish Play with Mr & Mrs Sturgeon being the McBeths and Alec Salmond being the King. Tick tock, tick tock. 

 

You do understand, don't you, that the objective of Yes in 2014 was to leave the UK (and hence the EU) and immediately apply for membership? You seem to have trouble grasping that second part. 

 

The sturgeon v Salmond stooshie is certainly a bit ugly, but I think most voters are adult enough to recognise that they would be voting for an independent country, not for a demigod. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You do understand, don't you, that the objective of Yes in 2014 was to leave the UK (and hence the EU) and immediately apply for membership? You seem to have trouble grasping that second part. 

 

The sturgeon v Salmond stooshie is certainly a bit ugly, but I think most voters are adult enough to recognise that they would be voting for an independent country, not for a demigod. 

And the EU would have immediately taken you in, you know this to be correct. 

It is not me that is struggling to grasp anything, but I do know that fairy tales can come true, keep feeding your wishing well RR. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

And the EU would have immediately taken you in, you know this to be correct. 

It is not me that is struggling to grasp anything, but I do know that fairy tales can come true, keep feeding your wishing well RR. 

I didnt know it to be correct, but then again, I never stated it to be my expectation. I expected a period of alignment prior to entry at some unknown time in the future as, I presume, did most people. 

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I didnt know it to be correct, but then again, I never stated it to be my expectation. I expected a period of alignment prior to entry at some unknown time in the future as, I presume, did most people. 

So not to put a too finer point on it, you was voting to leave the EU. I just get the feeling sometimes when we exchange posts that it's like asking Joseph Stalin to become a Liberal. ????

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

So not to put a too finer point on it, you was voting to leave the EU. I just get the feeling sometimes when we exchange posts that it's like asking Joseph Stalin to become a Liberal. ????

 

As a Brexiteer, I can accept that planning and foresight are not important to you, but, personally, I can see more than one step ahead and plan accordingly. 

 

But just to be clear, first would have been independence, then the process of joining the EU. That is already one step more than the most detailed of Brexit strategies. 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

As a Brexiteer, I can accept that planning and foresight are not important to you, but, personally, I can see more than one step ahead and plan accordingly. 

 

But just to be clear, first would have been independence, then the process of joining the EU. That is already one step more than the most detailed of Brexit strategies. 

So you was voting to leave the EU, a simple yes or no would suffice. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

So you was voting to leave the EU, a simple yes or no would suffice. 

 

No - it really isn't complicated. 

[herfiehandbag]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:04 AM, RuamRudy said:

An important day for all those who believe in democracy and the right of a people to choose their future without being bound by restrictions imposed by others. 

 

The crowdfunded People's AS30 action commences today. The objective is to ask the court to declare "that the Scottish Parliament has the power under the provisions of the Scotland Act 1998 to legislate for the holding of a referendum on whether Scotland should be an independent country, without requiring the consent of the UK Government." (link)

 

I am not wholly confident in its chances, but even a defeat will be useful in some respects. 

I am no lawyer, and certainly know little about Scottish law, but if the Scotland Act 1998 does not specifically empower the Scottish Parliament to stage such a referendum, I very much doubt whether a Scottish court can legislate to change the act, particularly as it was United Kingdom Parliament act in the first place.

 

on the other hand, I can see some advantages to an unilateral referendum. Firstly it would confirm that the SNP (or more particularly the Scottish government) is actually really pursuing independence (you will be familiar with my reservations on this) and secondly, and more practically, it will not be funded by the UK taxpayer. Put bluntly, why should English taxes go to fund a referendum in which we play no part?

[2530Ubon]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

No - it really isn't complicated. 

He's 'forgetting' about article 48 - Scotland could have remained in the EU and settled terms whilst in the process of independence.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

No - it really isn't complicated. 

Scotland was not a member of the EU, it was the UK that was the member, by default Scotland would have had to leave, by what form, who knows, but it would have had to have left. 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Scotland was not a member of the EU, it was the UK that was the member, by default Scotland would have had to leave, by what form, who knows, but it would have had to have left. 

 

Again, you stating things that nobody is denying; you are just, somehow, incapable of thinking in a linear time line. First, leave the UK, second, join the EU. 

[2530Ubon]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

Scotland was not a member of the EU, it was the UK that was the member, by default Scotland would have had to leave, by what form, who knows, but it would have had to have left. 

 

Even if Scotland didn't manage to persuade the EU to use article 48, and remain a member of the EU as an independent country whilst in the process of independence, it doesn't mean they were voting to leave the EU.

 

One could quite easily turn your argument the other way around and say that Scots voted to stay in the union with the UK because of all the uncertainty around EU membership. Now that that uncertainty has been removed; Brexit has happened and a considerable change to the union has taken place, it is only right and proper in a democratic society to hold another referendum.

 

Only an independent Scotland could apply to join the EU, reunification of the UK + EU is not going to happen anytime soon. We'd have to give up the pound for starters, and I don't see that happening.

Edited January 23, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Again, you stating things that nobody is denying; you are just, somehow, incapable of thinking in a linear time line. First, leave the UK, second, join the EU. 

Not that simple RR as you pretend it is, there is no guarantee that the EU will let Scotland join, whether Art 48, 49 or even 50. So to say we'll leave one then join another is again wishfull thinking on your behalf, easier to say that actually to do. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

Not that simple RR as you pretend it is, there is no guarantee that the EU will let Scotland join, whether Art 48, 49 or even 50. So to say we'll leave one then join another is again wishfull thinking on your behalf, easier to say that actually to do. 

 

Of course, nothing is guaranteed; again you are trying to rewrite the narrative to suggest that there was a lack of understanding as to what a Yes vote would entail. Nobody is / was blind the the implications of Scotland leaving the UK. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Of course, nothing is guaranteed; again you are trying to rewrite the narrative to suggest that there was a lack of understanding as to what a Yes vote would entail. Nobody is / was blind the the implications of Scotland leaving the UK. 

I am not trying to rewrite anything, I am saying it as it is, my initial statement of Scotland voting to leave the UK would have meant Scotland leaving the EU as well is correct. But you cannot definitely say you would have remained in the EU, that was totally out of the SNPs domain. 

And having said all that it is purely hypothetical anyway as the Scots voted to remain. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I am not trying to rewrite anything, I am saying it as it is, my initial statement of Scotland voting to leave the UK would have meant Scotland leaving the EU as well is correct. But you cannot definitely say you would have remained in the EU, that was totally out of the SNPs domain. 

And having said all that it is purely hypothetical anyway as the Scots voted to remain. 

Of course I couldn't definitely say we would have remained in the EU - hence I never said it. 

 

Most Scots voted to leave the UK. Your refusal to accept it doesn't make it any less true. 

[Pro1Expat]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:47 AM, Mavideol said:

Nicola and Scotland have my full unconditional support, go for it, good luck wish you the best.... and that would be the final nail in BJ's  coffin  555

Good idea, why not. Just remember the money that England gives Scotland would be stopped. Last time they had a referendum on this over 50% voted to remain with England.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Pro1Expat

[stevenl]

5 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

I read your post and the other chap was correct - you didn't answer the change in economics (leaving the EU).

 

The UK voted to leave the EU 2 years AFTER the scottish referendum in 2016. (Scots voted in 2014 for indyref) Therefore, a massive change in circumstances deserves another vote.

Thanks. Of course he didn't answer, the answer would not be welcome to him. Hence ignore and claim 'read my answer', just to hope it goes away.

And since there is no point in a discussion with someone who is not answering very relevant questions I stopped the discussion.

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course I couldn't definitely say we would have remained in the EU - hence I never said it. 

 

Most Scots voted to leave the UK. Your refusal to accept it doesn't make it any less true. 

Twist it as much as you like RR, the end result was remain. Who set the dodgy wording and the rules of this election.

 

"The Scottish independence referendum was a once-in-a-generation opportunity for people in Scotland to have their say about the country’s future." 

 

[Phulublub]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Twist it as much as you like RR, the end result was remain. Who set the dodgy wording and the rules of this election.

 

"The Scottish independence referendum was a once-in-a-generation opportunity for people in Scotland to have their say about the country’s future." 

 

Why are you so keen for Scotland to stay in the UK?

 

PH

[puchooay]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't believe any SNP MPs are ministers, but they will stop attending Westminster if we are no longer party to its convention. 

Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister????

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Most Scots voted to leave the UK. Your refusal to accept it doesn't make it any less true. 

I believe it was under 50%. When I went to school that would not be "most". I'm not aware of any changes in mathematics that would suggest otherwise.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Pro1Expat said:

Good idea, why not. Just remember the money that England gives Scotland would be stopped. Last time they had a referendum on this over 50% voted to remain with England.

No, they voted to remain in the UK. England is not the UK. It is the UK that gives Scotland, Wales, NI and England money. 

[Pro1Expat]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

No, they voted to remain in the UK. England is not the UK. It is the UK that gives Scotland, Wales, NI and England money. 

England is one part of the UK and is probably he biggest part. I think they should leave then we can stop listening to the constant moaning

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, puchooay said:

I believe it was under 50%. When I went to school that would not be "most". I'm not aware of any changes in mathematics that would suggest otherwise.

Then if you believe most Scots voted to remain, I am afraid I have to advise you that you are wrong. Most Scots voted to leave the UK.

 

However the franchise was extended beyond only Scots. English, Welsh and NI residents of Scotland and other foreign nationals registered on the Scottish electoral roll were also eligible to vote. Academic research has shown that while most Scots voted to leave, their slender majority was overturned by the other voters.

[youreavinalaff]

6 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

I read your post and the other chap was correct - you didn't answer the change in economics (leaving the EU).

 

The UK voted to leave the EU 2 years AFTER the scottish referendum in 2016. (Scots voted in 2014 for indyref) Therefore, a massive change in circumstances deserves another vote.

Read the posts again. He said " No need to answer"

[youreavinalaff]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Thanks. Of course he didn't answer, the answer would not be welcome to him. Hence ignore and claim 'read my answer', just to hope it goes away.

And since there is no point in a discussion with someone who is not answering very relevant questions I stopped the discussion.

You did say " No need to answer". I did not write "read my answer" but "read my post again". I was referring to hoping Scotland does get independence. Thus making your reply inane.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, vogie said:

Twist it as much as you like RR, the end result was remain. Who set the dodgy wording and the rules of this election.

 

"The Scottish independence referendum was a once-in-a-generation opportunity for people in Scotland to have their say about the country’s future." 

 

You are free to make up whatever you want, obviously you think "opportunity" has the same meaning as "referendum".

It is all very simple, if the people of Scotland take the same view they will not vote for the SNP on May 6th.

 

"But what is absolutely not for discussion is the fact that if Scotland votes for a legal referendum on May 6 this year, that is what it will get.

The SNP Scottish government will deliver such a referendum if re-elected and the proposals I am putting forward make that very clear."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-independence-referendum-roadmap-b1791799.html