Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[herfiehandbag]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Why would it be challenging? Scotland generates around £60 billion per year in taxation etc. The SG receives £30 billion for managing its remit. The rest of this notional deficit is run up by Westminster. On day 1 we will have transferred all spending decisions to Edinburgh, with the intention of making better choices as to where our resources are directed.

I'm not suggesting that it would be challenging ( that is another debate) but it would need Scotland to be in control of its own currency!

 

As for " Brigadoon on steroids" - it is a simile which I thought up ( you will not be surprised that I am  not a follower of the thoughts of George Galloway) - suggesting that without a currency of it's own, the idea of  genuine independence for Scotland is, well, a fantasy.

[herfiehandbag]

25 minutes ago, vogie said:

The nearest I'll ever get to the Paras is The Globe in Aldershot.

There was a chap in the senior intake when I was at the Idiot Factory who served in both the Para Engineers and the Commando Engineers, before R.M.A. He is rumoured to have gone into that pub wearing a tee shirt which read:

"God is airborne. 

 PS: he failed the commando course!"

 

The Cambridge Hospital dentists were very good!

Edited January 15, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[Sujo]

11 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I'm not suggesting that it would be challenging ( that is another debate) but it would need Scotland to be in control of its own currency!

 

As for " Brigadoon on steroids" - it is a simile which I thought up ( you will not be surprised that I am  not a follower of the thoughts of George Galloway) - suggesting that without a currency of it's own, the idea of  genuine independence for Scotland is, well, a fantasy.

There are countries that dont have their own currency.

 

Ecuador, zimbabwe, el salvadore, micronesia, turks and caicos, british virgin islands, palau.

 

Scotland did have the scottish pound so wouldnt be difficult to use that, but they would just use the euro.

 

Some use only euro.

 

https://merchantmachine.co.uk/currency-use-by-country/

Edited January 15, 2021 by Sujo

[vinny41]

Its strange you don't hear anything from the European forum members of European regions that have  have aspirations of becoming autonomous. such as

 

Why doesn't the EU start with Catalonia

Then it go do the same for Basque Country followed by Flanders, Padania in Italy,South Tyrol, In Italy, and finally

Corsica 

Beyond Catalonia: Separatist movements in Western Europe

Catalonia's regional government plans to hold its independence referendum on Sunday. But separatist movements are not unique to Spain: Several other European regions have aspirations of becoming autonomous.

As stated excellent idea and the EU could take the lead by example

https://www.dw.com/en/beyond-catalonia-separatist-movements-in-western-europe/a-40761144

[RayC]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Referenda are problematic - I think we can all agree on that, but a binary choice is much easier to present to the electorate than a complex, multi-layered package of options about the terms of a separation, which most of the electorate will likely not read, let alone understand. 

 

A binary choice referendum is unquestionably simpler, however it doesn't mean that it is the best choice as illustrated by Brexit. Given that a referendum on Scottish independence is similar in nature, I fear that a 'Yes' vote to a simple 'Yes/ No' question will result in a re-run of the Brexit chaos.

 

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But don''t forget, not every country which seceded from the UK have used referenda to do so. 

 

Without wishing to put words into your mouth, I assume that you are inferring that a vote for the SNP in the forthcoming election should be viewed as, de facto, a vote for independence? I wouldn't disagree on the provisio that any campaign makes this implicitly clear.

 

[Patong2021]

Scottish are delusional if they think EU will accept and embrace quickly. Some EU countries are tired of paying to support small countries. With all kindness to Scottish people, they bring very little to the EU. UK supports Scotland with financial transfers and I do not mean as an insult, but there is no way that a tiny country of 5.5 million can do a good job of it. Maybe Scottish people should ask taxpayers in Germany, France, Italy and Spain who provide most of the EU budget if they wish to support another Slovenia or Croatia or if they wish to allow economic migrants from Scotland who will come for opportunities.  Scotland likes it fish quotas, but they can say good bye to keeping them. And while Scotland waits for EU acceptance, it will not have easy trade with rest of the world because Scotland does not have much to offer. It is mostly a service economy.  If UK companies pull their service activities, what will the hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers do?

 

Maybe it is time the two countries put on big boy pants and address their long standing grievances and fix the relationship? As proud and nationalistic as English people are, the Scottish have been the saviors of Britain for generations. Scottish military units have always been a source of greatness, and individual Scottish people have had great personal success in science and business when they go to England, benefiting everyone. Scotland punches above its weight when part of UK. SNP spins magical dream like Trump had his MAGA slogan.

[gamini]

18 hours ago, Mavideol said:

Nicola and Scotland have my full unconditional support, go for it, good luck wish you the best.... and that would be the final nail in BJ's  coffin  555

they voted to stay in in the EU so naturally they would rather be in the EU with its vast market and potential, whilst Northern Ireland will unite with the south eventually and England will become a small unimportant country

[Mavideol]

15 hours ago, vogie said:

"the UK has to let them go, fair is fair"

The UK cannot have a couple of million of its citizens dictating to 70 million. 

but the UK could tell 445 million dictating what to do, come on Vogie, you can do better then that 555

 

15 hours ago, vogie said:

Scotland doesn't have a choice, Westminster is sovereign. Scotland was never in the EU it was the UK that was in the EU

Scotland is not asking to leave the EU it's asking to leave the UK thus to be sovereign and get away from the grips/grasp of westminster

[herfiehandbag]

26 minutes ago, robblok said:

Nothing against the English just the nationalist Brexiteers. Would be a nice slap in the face.

 

Oh do spell my name correct its only polite.

 

Just pointing out that the Scots should not make the same mistakes the Brits made and vote based on lies and false promises. They should do what is best for them based on the facts not based on what people want them to believe.

I apologise for spelling your name incorrectly. Whilst I do not shrink from challenging, I do endeavour to be polite!

 

As for the rest of my post - why do you suggest anyone who subscribes to a view other than yours (on Brexit, which  is not the topic) is:

A) a nationalist ( you use the word perjoratively).

B) deserving of a "slap in the face"?

 

I, for example, am not a nationalist in the  sense that I believe I the inherent superiority of my country over others. I have reasoned opinions on both Brexit and Scottish Independence. Opinions which I have explained and argued several times on these forums. The same is true of many others who post here.

 

If we are talking apologies perhaps your suggestion that we are nationalists who deserve a slap in the face should be considered?

 

Your approach to these subjects is so consistently antagonistic that one is forced to conclude that you are obsessed. 

 

I hesitate to use the race card, (it is so often misused) but such prejudices are not just driven by the colour of skin you know!

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

but the UK could tell 445 million dictating what to do, come on Vogie, you can do better then that 555

 

Scotland is not asking to leave the EU it's asking to leave the UK thus to be sovereign and get away from the grips/grasp of westminster

 

 

 

Personally, as a Brexiteer, I find it hard to ague against independence for Scotland.

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

If a referendum were to take place, then it really needs to be UK wide, because this is about the UK and not just Scotland.  It would be wrong to deny anyone in the UK a right to vote.

 

It can not be a straightforward binary vote that is potentially decided by a narrow margin, as with Brexit.  

 

And if the Islands decide to remain part of the UK their wish must be respected 

 

Really, we had a vote in 2014, and it was agreed that it should be once and for all, which tends to be interpreted as once every 30 or 40 years.

 

On the back of Brexit, and now covid19, I think a quick referendum would produce a most unreliable result, likely the same protest vote that we saw with Brexit.

 

Finally, I think it really is up to the SNP to produce a cogent plan, independently assessed, so that voters know what will truly happen.

 

 

[IvorBiggun2]

Spain has already said it will vote against the Jockanese joining. So carry on looking stupid Sturgeon.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

I apologise for spelling your name incorrectly. Whilst I do not shrink from challenging, I do endeavour to be polite!

 

As for the rest of my post - why do you suggest anyone who subscribes to a view other than yours (on Brexit, which  is not the topic) is:

A) a nationalist ( you use the word perjoratively).

B) deserving of a "slap in the face"?

 

I, for example, am not a nationalist in the  sense that I believe I the inherent superiority of my country over others. I have reasoned opinions on both Brexit and Scottish Independence. Opinions which I have explained and argued several times on these forums. 

 

If we are talking apologies perhaps your suggestion that we are nationalists who deserve a slap in the face should be considered?

 

Your approach to these subjects is so consistently antagonistic that one is forced to conclude that you are obsessed. 

 

I hesitate to use the race card, (it is so often misused) but such prejudices are not just driven by the colour of skin you know!

 

I dont say that everyone who is a Brexiteer is a nationalist. I said it would be a nice slap in the face of nationalistic Brexiteers. Does not mean all Brexiteers, i was talking about the subset of Brits who think that Britania still rules the waves and lives in The past the guys that bring up WW2 against Europe.

 

For those guys it would be the ultimate slap in the face if their beloved Brexit led to a even smaller UK. 

 

Yes I am an antagonist against those guys and I will always be. Same as I am against those guys from my country. I hate the guys who feel so superior based on their skin or where they come from. So far worst racist in Thailand i seen was Dutch.  

[vogie]

48 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

but the UK could tell 445 million dictating what to do, come on Vogie, you can do better then that 555

I didn't realise we were a nation of the EU, although I am sure that they thought it was well within their grasp.

 

50 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

Scotland is not asking to leave the EU it's asking to leave the UK thus to be sovereign and get away from the grips/grasp of westminster

If I can paraphrase Andrew Neil: If Scotland was to achieve independence from the rest of the UK and fail to join the EU, they would become a Banana Republic but without the bananas.????????

[mommysboy]

25 minutes ago, vogie said:

I didn't realise we were a nation of the EU, although I am sure that they thought it was well within their grasp.

 

If I can paraphrase Andrew Neil: If Scotland was to achieve independence from the rest of the UK and fail to join the EU, they would become a Banana Republic but without the bananas.????????

 

If Scotland left wouldn't it have to go straight on to WTO terms!

 

And then in a few years if it was stable enough it could join the EU, maybe!

 

It would be in an awful position to trade with the EU by road anyway.

 

Scotland's biggest trading partner is the UK.  I don't think it's good to on the one hand to deride the UK for cutting oneself off from the major trading partner, and then do the same yourself!

 

Did the SNP ever come up with a plan on basic things like currency, and defence? Last time out it maintained that it was going to keep using the UK pound, which is impossible.

 

What's the update Rudy?

 

 

[Dogmatix]

19 hours ago, Psimbo said:

Well they can get their MPs out of Westminster while they are at it. Now they have their own Parliament <deleted> are they still doing in Westminster anyway? Talk about having your cake and eating it.

 

'We want independence but want back in the EU where we will do what we are told'. Anybody else spot that oxymoron?

 

They HAD a referendum and it was defeated. Are we now in a world where we keep having referenda until the 'right' result is achieved? 

 

We had a referendum on whether to remain in or leave the EU in 1974.  So why then did we need another one in 2016? I voted to remain in 1974 and now my vote has been disrespected. Therefore we should also be able to have another referendum about rejoining the EU and Scotland, whose votes to remain in the EU in 1974 and again in 2016 have been disrespected by the Little England nationalists believing the lies about getting more money for the NHS, has the right to another referendum, now that that England and Wales have committed such a childish act of self-harm by dragging the UK out of the EU.

[IvorBiggun2]

Go go Scotland.

 

 

Quote

 

It’s no secret that Scotland never wanted Brexit; they voted strongly in favor of remaining in the EU (62% remain vs. 28% leave). Whilst 85% of Scots voted in the Scottish Independence referendum only 67% voted in the EU referendum; the second lowest regional participation in the vote…..mmmm pause for reflection.

Despite this, I think it’s unlikely Scotland will declare independence from the U.K. and try to join the EU on its own. Why not? Well here are a few contextual points for consideration:

• Had Scotland been successful on independence in 2014, they would be in better shape as oil prices were higher. However, now that oil prices are at rock bottom and oil demand globally has shrunk (in fact there is an oil glut), Scotland’s declining revenues from oil are causing a growing budgetary shortfall.
• Instead of reducing spending to match this decline in revenue, Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has committed the country to huge increases in public spending, and as a result, Scotland is developing a ratio of public sector debt to GDP that eclipses Greece.
• Scotland would struggle to sustain itself following independence; the UK spends more money in Scotland than it does in the rest of the country. Public Spending in Scotland is some $800 to $1500 per person higher than in England. Some of this is due to a lower population density, but some is also due to more generous healthcare and social benefits available only in Scotland. Without U.K. support this would be unsustainable.
• An independent Scotland would face an immediate debt repayment of £23bn to the UK Treasury, equivalent to more than a third of its entire spending. This would weigh down their economy significantly.
• Scotland has no significant industry to speak of that could sustain its people or its economy. True, it has Agriculture, Fisheries, Manufacturing, Oil, Brewing, Textiles and the remnants of a once-mighty shipbuilding industry, but much of this is owned by foreign multi-nationals who may react negatively to yet another Independence Vote. 27% of GDP comes from Industry and 72% from Services Sector.
• The oil industry for example has contracted substantially as prices and demand have dropped resulting in production closures, job losses and asset sales. Many Chinese companies now own Scottish North Sea Oil assets. To further illustrate the Oil Industry decline the UK and Scotland face huge costs associated with decommissioning assets rather than exploiting them.
• The Scottish Fisheries Industry has been severely and adversely affected by EU membership as national fishing rights were sacrificed for EU membership and EU member exploitation.
• Scotland has become home to call centres for banks and financial services, as well as distribution centers for high street and online superstores like Amazon. However, these are mostly low paying jobs that contribute little in income tax revenues and will in time be automated or replaced by technology.
• Meanwhile, Scottish unemployment has been rising steadily.
• Should Scotland force another independence vote and win this time, they may be at the back of the queue to join the EU. Scotland has never been a direct EU member previously, so their application to join the EU would be as a new member.
• They could try to get some preferential consideration to join, but that would need all 27 EU member states to agree. Spain is expected to strongly oppose this, as it is desperately trying to stop Catalonia region from declaring independence.
• This of course presupposes that the EU expands any further; It has been reported that all new applications are currently on hold pending the outcome from Brexit, the situation with Turkey and the outcome of Presidential elections in France and Germany. So Scottish membership of the EU is far from certain.

 

•  

[welovesundaysatspace]

53 minutes ago, vogie said:

I didn't realise we were a nation of the EU

Yes, you told us you were a vassal state that needs to take back control to regain sovereignty. So you should support the Scots. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

We had a referendum on whether to remain in or leave the EU in 1974.  So why then did we need another one in 2016? I voted to remain in 1974 and now my vote has been disrespected.

Because Brexiteers claim they have the authority to tell how many years need to pass before people are allowed to vote again. 

 

[IvorBiggun2]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

So you should support the Scots. 

I do. I can't wait for them to fall on their asses. Go go Scotland.

[Dogmatix]

I grew up in Scotland and have always loathed the SNP, their politicians and their policies. But the stupidity of Brexit and the arrogance of England and Wales forcing it on Scotland and Northern Ireland is a game changer for me. I fully support a referendum and would apply for Scottish citizenship, if independence were achieved and I were qualified. Of course Johnson will not agree to a referendum but he cannot stop Scotland from holding an informal one, like Catalonia did.  If the results showed a majority for independence, it would be harder for Johnson to resist allowing a formal referendum.  Most likely a new referendum in the UK on Brexit would result in a remain vote as senile leavers die off and are replaced by young remainers.

[transam]

7 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Because Brexiteers claim they have the authority to tell how many years need to pass before people are allowed to vote again. 

 

Link please....?

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Yes, you told us you were a vassal state that needs to take back control to regain sovereignty. So you should support the Scots. 

The Scots don't belong to Glasgow, they belong to the UK, I think that everyone would agree that Nationalism needs smashing.

[Proboscis]

20 hours ago, Psimbo said:

Well they can get their MPs out of Westminster while they are at it. Now they have their own Parliament <deleted> are they still doing in Westminster anyway? Talk about having your cake and eating it.

 

'We want independence but want back in the EU where we will do what we are told'. Anybody else spot that oxymoron?

 

They HAD a referendum and it was defeated. Are we now in a world where we keep having referenda until the 'right' result is achieved? 

Well, give them what they want and "take back control" by giving Scotland their Independence and thereby kicking them out of the English Parliament (well, some of it is Welsh but they never get a look in). Let them have their oxymoron, as you put it and let us all get on with our lives instead of complaining about everyone.

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

I didn't realise we were a nation of the EU, although I am sure that they thought it was well within their grasp.

 

If I can paraphrase Andrew Neil: If Scotland was to achieve independence from the rest of the UK and fail to join the EU, they would become a Banana Republic but without the bananas.????????

Which should be up to them to decide. Seems you cant live without them and are obsessed.

[vogie]

29 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Which should be up to them to decide. Seems you cant live without them and are obsessed.

I think you are becoming "obsessed" with me, you know what I'm thinking, tell me who to 'ignore' and now you claim that I'm obsessed. Please don't start another bickering fest, if you have anything of interest to add I'm sure we would like to hear it, but stalking other members is definately not allowed!

[puipuitom]

22 hours ago, Hi from France said:

The whole brexit referendum compelling argument was the right to self-determination (and freedom from "foreign shackles").

 

 

This fits quite well the right of Scots to determine their future. And I find Brexiteers a bit hypocritical to deny this right to the Scots, obviously the situation is completely different since they had their Independence referendum 6 years ago.

 

By then, the threat was "if you vote for independence you'll be out of the EU". Now it's the very opposite: independence will allow the closer relations to the EU that Brexit has denied.

 

Very probably not to become a EU member or use the € right away, but it would be quite quick to rejoin the European Free Trade Association nations and access the single market

EFTA died, when the British decided to look ONLY at their own interest. They then also dumped the Australian and New Zealand farmers. Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are very narrowly connected with the EU. Time to learn your history of the last 50 years. Maybe form a coalition with the islands of Man, and the Channel Islands  (hahaha) ?

[tebee]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

If a referendum were to take place, then it really needs to be UK wide, because this is about the UK and not just Scotland.  It would be wrong to deny anyone in the UK a right to vote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you are saying the Brexit referendum was fundamentally unfair ?  Lots of people directly affected by it were not allowed to vote - EU citizens in UK and UK citizens in EU 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

The Scots don't belong to Glasgow, they belong to the UK

I like how you managed to contradict yourself in just one little post ???? 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Nationalism needs smashing.

 

[Sujo]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think you are becoming "obsessed" with me, you know what I'm thinking, tell me who to 'ignore' and now you claim that I'm obsessed. Please don't start another bickering fest, if you have anything of interest to add I'm sure we would like to hear it, but stalking other members is definately not allowed!

Ive already said it, its up to them to decide. Why are you against them deciding to leave.