Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[youreavinalaff]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

Can you converse in a normal manner without the need to throw in unfounded insinuations and veiled insults? If so, then I am happy to continue, otherwise let's just agree to disagree. 

Ok. You seem to be having problems digesting the truth when it goes against you. I will simplify it for you.

 

So. Scotland deserves Indyref2 because a majority of Scots, not residents in Scotland, voted remain in the EU referendum. 

 

Shetland islanders, maybe not all Shetland natives but residents there of, voted 64% to leave EU. Shetland council voted 18 to 2 to seek possible self determination.

 

So, should Scotland become independent, Shetland can self determine to stay within UK and out of EU.

 

Is that simple enough for you? Remember, everyone should be able to choose their own future and nasty governments, swayed by residents of another entity, should not be able to intervene.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

But those in charge of the UK in Westminster for years were Scottish. They had years to sort stuff that you Nationalists complain about, your own countrymen..

I agree - it's almost as if they recognised that they were onto a good thing....

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Can you converse in a normal manner without the need to throw in unfounded insinuations and veiled insults?

 

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Ok. You seem to be having problems digesting the truth when it goes against you. I will simplify it for you.

 

So. Scotland deserves Indyref2 because a majority of Scots, not residents in Scotland, voted remain in the EU referendum. 

 

Shetland islanders, maybe not all Shetland natives but residents there of, voted 64% to leave EU. Shetland council voted 18 to 2 to seek possible self determination.

 

So, should Scotland become independent, Shetland can self determine to stay within UK and out of EU.

 

Is that simple enough for you? Remember, everyone should be able to choose their own future and nasty governments, swayed by residents of another entity, should not be able to intervene.

 

You could have saved yourself a lot of wasted time and effort by just typing 'no'.

Bye bye.

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

You could have saved yourself a lot of wasted time and effort by just typing 'no'.

Bye bye.

Finally. Thanks.

 

You have just invalidated everything you have written about your beliefs on self determination.

 

One rule for you and on for the others.

 

Would be sad if not so funny.

[sharksy]

On 2/3/2021 at 2:33 AM, RuamRudy said:

 

Oil - the Schrödinger's Cat of the independence debate.

 

On the one hand, a frequent unionist refrain is that oil is finished thus you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

On the other hand, Shetland wants independence, they say, and will take all your lovely oil with them, so you will have nothing from which to develop your currently feudal economy. 

 

Personally, I am more aligned to the cornucopian than malthusian theory of oil provenance. I have worked in the oil industry for over 30 years with half of that spent in the North Sea. I continue to keep an eye on the region and still see regular investment from the majors plus the rise to dominance of the independents. One thing I rarely saw no matter what platform I was on, however, was the Shetland coastline. 

 

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That is the thrust of the independence movement. It is also wholly irrelevant. Here we have a man who moves to a community in another country and immediately starts causing consternation and discord. He has been imprisoned because of his behaviour and he has proven himself to be nothing but a troublemaker. I know that the Express loves him as the voice of Shetland independence, but they never seem to have enough column inches to print just little backing he has from Shetlanders.

 

 

And rightly so. Like the rest of Scotland, Shetland has been fleeced dry by successive Westminster governments. I am sure you are aware that North Sea oil is not restricted to the waters around Shetland. One of the first commercial platforms in the North Sea, the Auk, is still going strong 45 minutes east of Dundee - so it is not just the Shetlanders who feel incredible umbrage at how their bounty was stolen to line the pockets of tory cronies.

 

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, independence for me will include a wholesale ripping up of the structure of cronyism of the current establishment. It has served to the benefit of only a very small number of people in any of the 4 countries of the UK for generations. 

I got to say, you complain that Scottish oil has been fleeced, yet you, yourself have had a hand in this.

Stinks of hyprocrisy, sorry!

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, sharksy said:

 

I got to say, you complain that Scottish oil has been fleeced, yet you, yourself have had a hand in this.

Stinks of hyprocrisy, sorry!

 

No need to apologise. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how illogical it might be. 

 

 

I think that you are suggesting that by working in the oil industry, I am somehow complicit in the spending decisions of the Westminster government? Just to be clear, although it surprises me that this needs to be stated, neither me, my employer or any of the other oil companies in the North Sea are responsible for setting the fiscal policy of the government.

 

To what extent do you suggest I stop contributing to the exchequer? Most of what I purchase in the shops contributes VAT. Should I also stop being a consumer because I don't agree with the government's spending priorities? Should those who didn't vote for the government of the day feel ashamed when they participate in commerce?

[Phulublub]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:38 AM, sharksy said:

Not even the Covid vaccination rates?

I see England is offering to help out Scotland, who is doing the worst out of the 4 nations.

 

I would support an independent Scotland, just not yet.  I think there is a lot of work to do in several areas to show that the SNP can govern well.  I know you say, the SNP is effectively, a one-trick pony, to get independence.

But I can't see a decent political part to choose from after independence.  Scottish Labour Party maybe?

 

England offering to help Scotland?  I thought the Unionists see the UK as a single entity?  If so, why single out different areas?

 

But if you are going to form some sort of league table on vaccination rates, then by definition one is going to be ahead of the other. It is also somewhat disingenious tocompare Scotland, which has, on avergaae, much more distance between communities, with the whole of England.  And worse Winter weather.  Both factors will slow delivery.

 

PH

[transam]

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

England offering to help Scotland?  I thought the Unionists see the UK as a single entity?  If so, why single out different areas?

 

But if you are going to form some sort of league table on vaccination rates, then by definition one is going to be ahead of the other. It is also somewhat disingenious tocompare Scotland, which has, on avergaae, much more distance between communities, with the whole of England.  And worse Winter weather.  Both factors will slow delivery.

 

PH

The UK has sent the army in to help Scotland's SNP wavering.......????

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, transam said:

The UK has sent the army in to help Scotland's SNP wavering.......????

We are required to pay for them so why should we not get to use them? 

[transam]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

We are required to pay for them so why should we not get to use them? 

Yes, the gov gave Scotland a huge amount of money to get on with it, but it seems there is a question mark over where the cash is going..........I hope not on independence nonsense eh......

[Sujo]

52 minutes ago, transam said:

Yes, the gov gave Scotland a huge amount of money to get on with it, but it seems there is a question mark over where the cash is going..........I hope not on independence nonsense eh......

Best for scotland to just leave the uk. One less thing to complain about.

[transam]

10 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Best for scotland to just leave the uk. One less thing to complain about.

Not really, I care about Scotland, I care about the Union, I don't care for S. Nationalists who are trying to destroy a Union that has done well over 3 centuries...

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Yes, the gov gave Scotland a huge amount of money to get on with it, but it seems there is a question mark over where the cash is going..........I hope not on independence nonsense eh......

 

Is there a question mark? 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

Not really, I care about Scotland, I care about the Union, I don't care for S. Nationalists who are trying to destroy a Union that has done well over 3 centuries...

 

That's just it - it hasn't done well for most Scots or Scotland. 

[transam]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

Is there a question mark? 

I watched a YT vid discussing the SNP's lack of doing anything right, the huge cash input was mentioned, I recall it was questionable... 

[RuamRudy]

46 minutes ago, transam said:

I watched a YT vid discussing the SNP's lack of doing anything right, the huge cash input was mentioned, I recall it was questionable... 

Ah - more of these dodgy videos funded by shadowy characters with hidden interests? Ok...

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Ah - more of these dodgy videos funded by shadowy characters with hidden interests? Ok...

They do need a bit of shuffling, but sometimes interesting... 

[youreavinalaff]

4 hours ago, Phulublub said:

England offering to help Scotland?  I thought the Unionists see the UK as a single entity?  If so, why single out different areas?

I think you will find, it's common knowledge to be honest, that England, Wales,Scotland and N Ireland have been making their own decisions with regards to Covid19 for some time.

 

It is not this discussion that has singled any particular area out. This has been happening for many months.

 

 

[Rimmer]

Troll post meme removed

[sharksy]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That's just it - it hasn't done well for most Scots or Scotland. 

I would be interested to know what hasn't gone well for most Scots or Scotland, if you may oblige.

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, sharksy said:

I would be interested to know what hasn't gone well for most Scots or Scotland, if you may oblige.

 

Certainly it is a big ask because much would be hypothetical and the 'hasn't gone well' aspect is clearly subjective, especially over 300 years.

 

A list of historic grievances is pointless but within my lifetime we have seen the decimation of heavy industry and the resulting, long lasting effects on communities all over Scotland as they were abandoned by the government, all to suit the ideological belief of a party that my country has rejected at every single election since before the vast majority of us were born. 

 

You might argue that the same was felt and continues to be felt in Northern England and in Wales, and I am not disputing that, but the fact remains that it was your country which enabled Thatcher; in no election since 1955 have Scottish votes influenced the result of a General Election. Every GE since that time has resulted in electing the party that England wants. 

 

I moved to Aberdeen in the late 80s to go to college. At the height of the oil boom, I can still recall being surprised to see the relative poverty of pockets of the city. I can still remember, around 2000, the council getting excited because they had finally converted their last council accommodation to have an indoor toilet.

 

Meanwhile Norway, a country very similar to Scotland in terms of population, geography and number of barrels of oil extracted from the North Sea, has one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world. Our oil boon was taken by a government we never voted for and used to facilitate tax cuts for the wealthy as they have racked up debt of trillions of pounds which they will saddle us with.  

 

 The stagnation that came after Thatcher destroyed our industrial base was as criminal as the destruction itself - our record on violence, drink and drug abuse is a shocking legacy of the years of neglect by successive Westminster governments.

 

And now, Brexit thrust upon an unwilling country - so many things we could have avoided were we free to choose our own path rather than being forced to follow the lead from our neighbour. 

[RayC]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:44 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

I don't know to whom you are referring, but I have stated many times in the past that the best separation is an amicable and fair one that has the least amount of disruption and is executed with the most civility possible. 

 

Apologies for the delay in replying.

 

My comment was aimed at anyone who believes that Scottish independence is simply a matter for Holyrood, and that Westminster's role is limited to little more than rubber-stamping what is proposed by Edinburgh.

 

Frankly, I don't know if my comment applies to you. You could dispel all doubts by agreeing - or disagreeing - directly with the two questions I posed.

 

I don't for one moment doubt your sincerely regarding the type of separation you desire (should it occur): I echo your sentiments. 

 

On 2/3/2021 at 7:44 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

In order for that to happen, there would need to be the intent on both sides to accomplish that. 

 

Indeed, and I acknowledge that my insistence that Westminster is fully engaged in the process is undermined by Johnson's refusal to engage in meaningful conversation.

 

However, Johnson is surely correct that fighting and recovering from (the effects of) the pandemic must be the UK's top priority?

 

In addition, the UK must address its' post-Brexit position in the world, and imo this should also take precedence.

 

You might agrue that Scottish independence could be considered in parallel with these matters. Perhaps, but in that case the government would be spreading its' resources rather thinly imo.

 

On 2/3/2021 at 7:44 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

I may not want my country governed by yours, but it does not mean that I wish your country any ill will. Quite the opposite - I would like to see rUK flourish and thrive after we leave.

 

Again, I don't doubt your sincerity. I would have the same feelings towards Scotland if it becomes independent.

 

On 2/3/2021 at 7:44 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

You will find from me none of the nasty, bitter wishes expressed by some of your countrymen towards an independent Scotland. 

 

 

Unfortunately, you are correct that a minority of Englishmen feel that way. However, let's not forget that there are some on here who are not shy in wishing ill fortune on the UK, or more specifically, England.

[sidgy]

 

 

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

A list of historic grievances is pointless but within my lifetime we have seen the decimation of heavy industry and the resulting, long lasting effects on communities all over Scotland

 

As is true of the major economies around the world as heavy industry has moved to 3rd world and developing nations

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I moved to Aberdeen in the late 80s to go to college. At the height of the oil boom, I can still recall being surprised to see the relative poverty of pockets of the city. I can still remember, around 2000, the council getting excited because they had finally converted their last council accommodation to have an indoor toilet.

Scotlands most affluent city, and the UKs 3rd

 

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Meanwhile Norway, a country very similar to Scotland in terms of population, geography and number of barrels of oil extracted from the North Sea, has one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world.

i would say producing only 60% of Norways amount is not similar

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, sidgy said:

 

 

 

As is true of the major economies around the world as heavy industry has moved to 3rd world and developing nations

Scotlands most affluent city, and the UKs 3rd

 

i would say producing only 60% of Norways amount is not similar

Good source on how both countries handle oil production and revenue.

https://www.businessforscotland.com/uks-oil-gas-revenues-dwarfed-norways/

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, sidgy said:

 

i would say producing only 60% of Norways amount is not similar

 

Where do you get 60% from? Not that your error is important - even if we had only produced 60% of Norway's production, there has still been a very iniquitous distribution of the benefits.

 

"The U.K. and Norway oil and gas sectors provide an ideal comparison through which to compare the outcomes from different approaches to oil sector governance. 

...both countries have produced similar amounts of hydrocarbons: the U.K. has produced 42.8 billion barrels of oil equivalent (boe) and Norway 40 billion boe (figure 1)."

Natural Resource Governance Institute

 

3 hours ago, sidgy said:

Scotlands most affluent city, and the UKs 3rd

 

There are, indeed, some very rich people in Aberdeen. And until recently, there was local authority housing with outside toilets. 

 

3 hours ago, sidgy said:

As is true of the major economies around the world as heavy industry has moved to 3rd world and developing nations

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It was less the migration of traditional industries over time; more the willful, wholesale destruction of communities with nothing to fill the vacuum left behind.

[RuamRudy]

Well if this goes ahead, I guess we can say goodbye to any chance of an independent Scotland.

 

Revealed: Secret No 10 plan to send Prince Edward to live in Edinburgh palace in attempt to quash rising support for SNP and another Scottish independence referendum

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Where do you get 60% from? Not that your error is important - even if we had only produced 60% of Norway's production, there has still been a very iniquitous distribution of the benefits.

 

"The U.K. and Norway oil and gas sectors provide an ideal comparison through which to compare the outcomes from different approaches to oil sector governance. 

...both countries have produced similar amounts of hydrocarbons: the U.K. has produced 42.8 billion barrels of oil equivalent (boe) and Norway 40 billion boe (figure 1)."

Natural Resource Governance Institute

 

 

 

Apologies - I must make a correction to my earlier comment on hydrocarbon volumes. It occurred to me that gas production from the Southern North Sea would have been included in that UK figure of 42.8 billion barrels.

 

According to UK government data, the SNS has produced 40 trillion cubic feet of gas over the years. This equates to roughly 7.6 billion barrels of oil equivalent. So the Scottish share of the UK production is 35.2 billion boe or 88% of Norway's production.

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, RayC said:

Indeed, and I acknowledge that my insistence that Westminster is fully engaged in the process is undermined by Johnson's refusal to engage in meaningful conversation.

Westminster is certainly fully engaged, a new general has been appointed in the war against the leavers. Meaningful conversation as you say is nowhere to be seen.

 

Oliver Lewis – a leading figure in the recent Brexit negotiations – is now expected to take over the unit working to keep Scotland in the UK following Mr Graham’s departure.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-union-adviser-sacked-b1797516.html?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=Feed

 

and this smacks of desperation.

 

Downing Street officials reportedly considered asking Prince Edward, Queen Elizabeth’s youngest son, to relocate to Scotland in the hope of reducing pro-independence sentiment amid growing support for the Scottish National Party. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-edward-scotland-independence-queen-b1798558.html#comments-area

 

As for Gove, since when did political points become promises, should we ever expect to see BJ in front of the bulldozer or Farage's 70 million Turks.

Context, a most useful tool in the pursuit of a particular agenda.

 

"But of course it's also important people can have confidence in the promises made by politicians.

"And it was the case in 2014 that Nicola Sturgeon and other leading Scottish nationalists made the point that that referendum was for a generation.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-second-referendum-michael-gove-snp-b1721767.html#comments-area

[sandyf]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:52 PM, sharksy said:

I would be interested to know what hasn't gone well for most Scots or Scotland, if you may oblige.

The Act of Unions was agreed between the Parliament of England and the Parliament of Scotland. The Parliament of England immediately declared itself the Parliament of the UK and dissolved the Parliament of Scotland.

Do you really believe it was in Scotland's interest not to have a national parliament? If that was the case there would never have been any need for the token gesture in 1999, a devolved Scottish Parliament.

 

Maybe someone can tell us how many national parliaments the European Parliament has dissolved, or is it a case of some unions being more union than other unions.

Whichever view you take it is a constitutional crisis that has to be resolved in the short term, "generations" and "lifetimes" are not viable options.

[sidgy]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Apologies - I must make a correction to my earlier comment on hydrocarbon volumes. It occurred to me that gas production from the Southern North Sea would have been included in that UK figure of 42.8 billion barrels.

 

According to UK government data, the SNS has produced 40 trillion cubic feet of gas over the years. This equates to roughly 7.6 billion barrels of oil equivalent. So the Scottish share of the UK production is 35.2 billion boe or 88% of Norway's production.

No Problem. My apologies also, I have reread and seen you are referring to total production since reserves were first found, The 60% i refer to was over the last few years

Incidentally, Are you also not including all the other sites in the UK outside of Scotland,  eg Morecombe Bay, Wytch farm, etc