Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, sidgy said:

Never said it was,in actuall fact if you read what i wrote i said it is up to the people of Scotland,

 

im not a brexiteer, again can you point to where i have said i was?

 

 

 

so calling you out  for making stuff up is spliting hairs?  OK 

 

 

 

 

 

OK so you are saying its up to the people of Scotland to decide but you want to stipulate what the timescale should be.

So a Remainer who has joined ranks with all the Brexiteers on here in order to frustrate Scottish independence and Scotland rejoining the EU? Sounds odd.

You continually avoid the point I am making. Is Scotland an equal partner in the UK with its larger partner England? Yes or no will do.

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. Cannot be as you were offered the choice of a divorce. You turned it down.

So you can only ask for a divorce once?

[youreavinalaff]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So you can only ask for a divorce once?

No, I wouldn't think so. However, if you were offered one and so emphatically declined, that would send the message that everything was tickady boo. For the foreseeable future anyway.

[hotandsticky]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

OK so you are saying its up to the people of Scotland to decide but you want to stipulate what the timescale should be.

So a Remainer who has joined ranks with all the Brexiteers on here in order to frustrate Scottish independence and Scotland rejoining the EU? Sounds odd.

You continually avoid the point I am making. Is Scotland an equal partner in the UK with its larger partner England? Yes or no will do.

 

 

Obviously not........you really need to ask?

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Is Scotland an equal partner in the UK with its larger partner England?

But would it be an equal partner in the EU with 17 larger (out of 27 in total) partners in population terms? If it's equality the Scots are after they can definitely forget about achieving that through EU membership!

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/scpop/pop

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/11081093/3-10072020-AP-EN.pdf/d2f799bf-4412-05cc-a357-7b49b93615f1#:~:text=Among the EU Member States,38.0 million or 8.5%).

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Obviously not........you really need to ask?

 

Right so Scotland was subsumed into the English empire then. As I said. They changed the company name but everything stayed the same.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

No, I wouldn't think so. However, if you were offered one and so emphatically declined, that would send the message that everything was tickady boo. For the foreseeable future anyway.

 

So if a couple of years later one partner looks at what the other is proposing to do and says "If you do that then I will want a divorce" and the other partner goes ahead and does it anyway their actions are somehow negated by the fact that they didnt get divorced two years before it?

[Rookiescot]

27 minutes ago, OJAS said:

But would it be an equal partner in the EU with 17 larger (out of 27 in total) partners in population terms? If it's equality the Scots are after they can definitely forget about achieving that through EU membership!

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/scpop/pop

 

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/11081093/3-10072020-AP-EN.pdf/d2f799bf-4412-05cc-a357-7b49b93615f1#:~:text=Among the EU Member States,38.0 million or 8.5%).

 

 

An independent Scotland in the EU will control far more than what it is currently "allowed" to control while in the UK.

Plus, as with all other EU nations, a veto will be available on any major change we decide we do not like.

[RayC]

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Wrong. In Scotland the people are sovereign. Its in Scottish law.

 

I assume that you are talking from a 'moral' standpoint - about which I have made no comment - because according to the 'Institute for Government', the UK legal position is clear.

 

Please supply a link if you think my original statement is factually incorrect. 

 

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Now I get where you are coming from with your "Its not up to you Scots to decide its up to the whole UK" but its an asinine line of argument.

In the same way the rest of the EU did not get a vote on Brexit.

 

Yet you can supply no counterargument to disprove my 'asinine' argument that the UK-EU/ UK-Scotland analogy is flawed?

 

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So for once just accept that this is nothing to do with the English and you dont get to dictate what happens.

 

"It's nothing to do with the English..." isn't a reasoned counterargument: Presumably it's nothing to do with the Welsh and N. Irish either, or are we English being singled out for special treatment?

 

I have never stated that the rest of the UK should " .. dictate what happens ..", merely that as an affected party - with (opportunity) costs - Westminster should be involved and not have the entire process dictated to us by Holyrood.

 

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

When the SNP are voted into Holyrood in May with a commitment in its election manifesto to hold a referendum on independence then thats what the people of Scotland want. Thats democracy.

 

Agreed but see also my paragraph above.

 

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Or are you saying it would have been OK for Cameron to win the Westminster election on a promise of an EU referendum and then not delivered on his promise?

 

No, I'm not and I've no idea how you can draw that conclusion.

[RayC]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The decision to divorce is for one half of the marriage alone. How that divorce is managed is the bit where the negotiations start. 

 

Holyrood: "I want a divorce"

Westminster: "OK, fair enough. What's the process?"

Holyrood: "I've mapped it all out. Here"

Westminster: "There's a few things that I'm not happy about. Let's talk about it"

Holyrood: "Nope. That's the way it's going to be"

Westminster: "See my lawyer"

[sidgy]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

OK so you are saying its up to the people of Scotland to decide but you want to stipulate what the timescale should be.

Tut tut tut, . Again, i do not want to stipulate anything, you do understand the difference between offering an opinion on what i think would be the preferable route and stipulting demands?. i think you either have a huge chip on your shoulder or severe lack of reading skills.

 

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So a Remainer who has joined ranks with all the Brexiteers on here in order to frustrate Scottish independence and Scotland rejoining the EU? Sounds odd.

I haven't joined any ranks and am certainly not trying to frustrate anything, please show me where/how/when i have done this

 

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

You continually avoid the point I am making. Is Scotland an equal partner in the UK with its larger partner England? Yes or no will do

No avoiding, you added this question half way through as deflection from the initial point, When you have addressed that point, then maybe i will join in a conversation about that, or maybe not, It has no relevence to your initial post

[RayC]

17 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Its not up to anyone except the Scots to decide when they want another referendum. 

 

So everything else - dealing with Covid and its' aftermath, post-Brexit issues, etc - can all take a back seat if Holyrood decides it wants another referendum?

 

I don't have much time for Johnson, but this government will be dealing with the biggest set of problems for, at least, 75 years and another Scottish independence referendum is not the biggest priority for the vast majority of the UK population.

 

Chalk another one up to 'English arrogance' if you like, but imo any referendum - if necessary - should wait until things stabilise. When will that be? I'd imagine that Johnson would bite your hand off if you offered him 2023, but that might be wildly optimistic? Who knows?

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

 

[youreavinalaff]

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

So if a couple of years later one partner looks at what the other is proposing to do and says "If you do that then I will want a divorce" and the other partner goes ahead and does it anyway their actions are somehow negated by the fact that they didnt get divorced two years before it?

Divorce is a two way thing. Sure, if both parties are in agreement that the previous decision was not for the best of both parties, let's go again.

 

However, it is only fair that both parties get the settlement that is best for them. Needs to be an amicable agreement. That is what one party here seems to be overlooking.

[bkkcanuck8]

10 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Divorce is a two way thing. Sure, if both parties are in agreement that the previous decision was not for the best of both parties, let's go again.

 

However, it is only fair that both parties get the settlement that is best for them. Needs to be an amicable agreement. That is what one party here seems to be overlooking.

Divorce though is a bad comparison since in divorce law you have divorce courts which balance the power imbalance between the two parties... this does not exist... and the EU has much more power economically behind them than the independent UK does.  This is just the way the world works...  Scotland will have the same issue temporarily, but in their case (depending on the EU) the road to rejoining the EU will not be that long... as they already were a member (through being part of the UK) -- and they are not seen as a threat generally speaking (like Turkey generally is because of issues with religion). 

Edited February 20, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[youreavinalaff]

8 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Divorce though is a bad comparison since in divorce law you have divorce courts which balance the power imbalance between the two parties... this does not exist... and the EU has much more power economically behind them than the independent UK does.  This is just the way the world works...  Scotland will have the same issue temporarily, but in their case (depending on the EU) the road to rejoining the EU will not be that long... as they already were a member (through being part of the UK) -- and they are not seen as a threat generally speaking (like Turkey generally is because of issues with religion)

That would, of course, just be an opinion.

 

What is fact is that both parties need to be involved and decide a way forward. As the deal negotiations between UK and EU goes to show.

 

Scotland would be far better off trying to deal with UK rather than feeling it is their God given right to gain independence as and when they want it.

 

Like I have said many times here, I have absolutely no issues with Scottish independence. It truly is up to them to want it or not. What is not up to them, solely, is when  and how this will happen and what they can take with them or leave behind. Much like a divorce.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

That would, of course, just be an opinion.

 

What is fact is that both parties need to be involved and decide a way forward. As the deal negotiations between UK and EU goes to show.

 

Scotland would be far better off trying to deal with UK rather than feeling it is their God given right to gain independence as and when they want it.

 

Like I have said many times here, I have absolutely no issues with Scottish independence. It truly is up to them to want it or not. What is not up to them, solely, is when  and how this will happen and what they can take with them or leave behind. Much like a divorce.

 

So when the other 65 countries left the British empire then it was up to the population of the UK as to when and if they could have it?

Or did these countries just get to decide for themselves?

[youreavinalaff]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

So when the other 65 countries left the British empire then it was up to the population of the UK as to when and if they could have it?

Or did these countries just get to decide for themselves?

No. As I pointed out above, there were agreements between both parties.

 

Twisting what people say to try and make one happy in oneself is a little foolish if trying to make a point.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. As I pointed out above, there were agreements between both parties.

 

Twisting what people say to try and make one happy in oneself is a little foolish if trying to make a point.

 

 

 

Of course there will need to be agreement between both parties AFTER independence I'm asking you whether Scotland is unique in that it needs permission of the rest of the UK before it gets its independence. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Rookiescot

[herfiehandbag]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Of course there will need to be agreement between both parties AFTER independence I'm asking you whether Scotland is unique in that it needs permission of the rest of the UK before it gets its independence. 

Scotland is not a colony. It was not taken over. It is part of the United Kingdom. If it wishes to leave that is also a matter for the United Kingdom.

 

Note I am not saying that England should prevent Scottish independence, but it is very, dare I suggest, arrogant to pretend that the United Kingdom should not be part of the decision making process.

 

Now personally I am not particularly bothered if Scotland were to go off on its own. However I do think that the settlement should be realistic, and Scotland should shoulder a proportionate share of all the costs. I also think that before the decision is made then there should be clear policies on financial, currency and trading relationships, policies agreed between the UK and Scotland.

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

19 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

 

What is fact is that both parties need to be involved and decide a way forward. As the deal negotiations between UK and EU goes to show.

Didn’t both UK and EU made clear that “no deal” is an option? And where did Scotland say that it would not have “deal negotiations” with the UK after independence? 
 

Quote

Scotland would be far better off trying to deal with UK rather than feeling it is their God given right to gain independence as and when they want it. (...) What is not up to them, solely, is when  and how this will happen and what they can take with them or leave behind.

Wasn’t that what the UK did when it decided to “divorce” from the EU? I cannot remember the EU had a say in that decision.  
 

Quote

What is not up to them, solely, is when  and how this will happen and what they can take with them or leave behind. Much like a divorce.

That would, of course, just be an opinion.

Edited February 22, 2021 by welovesundaysatspace

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Wasn’t that what the UK did when it decided to “divorce” from the EU? I cannot remember the EU had a say in that decision.  

Ah, but the differences are that: 1) the EU was not a nation in its own right (despite the grandstanding in certain quarters) whereas the United Kingdom is a nation, with it's own parliament and government, and 2) the UK's membership of the UK, and it's right to withdraw were enshrined in a treaty. Scotland's membership of the UK is not.

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Didn’t both UK and EU made clear that “no deal” is an option? And where did Scotland say that it would not have “deal negotiations” with the UK after independence? 
 

Wasn’t that what the UK did when it decided to “divorce” from the EU? I cannot remember the EU had a say in that decision.  
 

That would, of course, just be an opinion.

Basically you are agreeing with what I said. You are just twisting it you make it sound better for you.

 

Therefore, I would have to say "Yes" to your questions.

 

To confirm, the EU did have a say. There were deals negotiated, a no deal was indeed part of those negotiations, so therefore EU did have a say. They also had a say on the timeframes.

 

Scotland, or at least the powers that be, did not say there would be no negotiations to my knowledge. However, I was not talking to them. I was replying to those on here that keep insisting that it is up to Scotland alone and nothing to do with the rest of the UK.

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

14 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Of course there will need to be agreement between both parties AFTER independence I'm asking you whether Scotland is unique in that it needs permission of the rest of the UK before it gets its independence. 

I see where you are getting confused now.

 

You seem to think that if the Scottish electorate vote for independence then it will be achieved on the spot. This being apparent where you say " agreement between both parties AFTER independence".

 

Obviously that is incorrect. The agreements with be made about independence and, thus, will need to be made BEFORE independence. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Ah, but the differences are that: 1) the EU was not a nation in its own right (despite the grandstanding in certain quarters) whereas the United Kingdom is a nation, with it's own parliament and government, and 2) the UK's membership of the UK, and it's right to withdraw were enshrined in a treaty. Scotland's membership of the UK is not.

Not that I think any of that makes a difference, but tell it to the guy I was replying to, as he was comparing Scotland leaving the UK with the UK leaving the EU. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Basically you are agreeing with what I said. You are just twisting it you make it sound better for you.

If you are implying that Scotland may unilaterally leave the UK same as the UK left the EU, no matter whether and what deal is being negotiated, then I am agreeing with what you said. 
 

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

To confirm, the EU did have a say. There were deals negotiated, a no deal was indeed part of those negotiations, so therefore EU did have a say. They also had a say on the timeframes.

The UK didn’t have to agree to any of that. So, again, if that is what you demand for Scotland vs. UK, i.e. that both of them can negotiate and agree on timeline and other aspects, but that Scotland is also free to leave that negotiating table without any such deals as and when they wish, then we can agree on that. 
 

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

I was replying to those on here that keep insisting that it is up to Scotland alone and nothing to do with the rest of the UK.

It should be up to Scotland alone, same as it was up to the UK alone when it left the EU. 

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Scotland is not a colony. It was not taken over. It is part of the United Kingdom. If it wishes to leave that is also a matter for the United Kingdom.

 

Note I am not saying that England should prevent Scottish independence, but it is very, dare I suggest, arrogant to pretend that the United Kingdom should not be part of the decision making process.

 

Now personally I am not particularly bothered if Scotland were to go off on its own. However I do think that the settlement should be realistic, and Scotland should shoulder a proportionate share of all the costs. I also think that before the decision is made then there should be clear policies on financial, currency and trading relationships, policies agreed between the UK and Scotland.

 

 

If Scotland was not taken over then why does it need the permission of a parliament in another country to leave?

 

Negotiations will take place AFTER independence is voted for not before. Same as happened with Brexit.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

I see where you are getting confused now.

 

You seem to think that if the Scottish electorate vote for independence then it will be achieved on the spot. This being apparent where you say " agreement between both parties AFTER independence".

 

Obviously that is incorrect. The agreements with be made about independence and, thus, will need to be made BEFORE independence. 

 

What?

So the Brexit negotiations were done before the Brexit referendum?

Absolute nonsense.

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

What?

So the Brexit negotiations were done before the Brexit referendum?

Absolute nonsense.

Oh dear.

 

You are confused once again. An independence referendum does not create and independent state.

 

It gives the government of that country the mandate to prepare, negotiate and create that independence.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Oh dear.

 

You are confused once again. An independence referendum does not create and independent state.

 

It gives the government of that country the mandate to prepare, negotiate and create that independence.

 

Correct.

Now have a word with yourself and your Brexiteer colleagues who seem to be demanding that the negotiations should take place BEFORE a referendum.