Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[youreavinalaff]

19 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Correct.

Now have a word with yourself and your Brexiteer colleagues who seem to be demanding that the negotiations should take place BEFORE a referendum.

No. I, and many others here, have said the negotiations take place before independence. Read what I said again. I tried to make it as clear as possible.

 

If you believe other wise please feel free to quote me.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

No. I, and many others here, have said the negotiations take place before independence. Read what I said again. I tried to make it as clear as possible.

 

If you believe other wise please feel free to quote me.

 

 

You are not making any sense.

Do you think the negotiations for Scottish independence should take place before or after a referendum?

A simple yes or no will work.

[youreavinalaff]

51 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You are not making any sense.

Do you think the negotiations for Scottish independence should take place before or after a referendum?

A simple yes or no will work.

Like I have always said. Negotiations for independence happen after the referendum.

 

It all makes perfect sense to most people. Just as my previous posts have

[youreavinalaff]

54 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

A simple yes or no will work.

No it won't. Your question was either or.

Edited February 22, 2021 by youreavinalaff

[sharksy]

The way I see it - Brexit took up so much time and resources  (yes, I'm a Brexiteer), other things the Government could/should have done did not get done.
This Pandemic, so some degree is having the same effect.
Scotland Independance will again have a impact - probably more than Brexit. 
And this raises the question of timing. 

Pandemic + Brexit + Scottish Independance all together = What a freaking nightmare for parliament.

That's why I believe a referendum need to be agreed between Scotland and the UK.  It affects all of us.

 

[Patong2021]

IMO much depends on the outcome of the political plot Sturgeon is implicated in that saw Wee Eck Salmond publicly disparaged and humiliated.  If it turns out that Sturgeon is as evil and nasty as she looks, I doubt that she shall be the belle of the independence ball.  The night of the long knives is yet to come.

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

IMO much depends on the outcome of the political plot Sturgeon is implicated in that saw Wee Eck Salmond publicly disparaged and humiliated.  If it turns out that Sturgeon is as evil and nasty as she looks, I doubt that she shall be the belle of the independence ball.  The night of the long knives is yet to come.

 

I would hope that most people can see that the pursuit of independence is unrelated to the travails of the SNP. The SNP is the most likely vehicle to a much better place; they are not the destination. 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, sharksy said:

The way I see it - Brexit took up so much time and resources  (yes, I'm a Brexiteer), other things the Government could/should have done did not get done.
This Pandemic, so some degree is having the same effect.
Scotland Independance will again have a impact - probably more than Brexit. 
And this raises the question of timing. 

Pandemic + Brexit + Scottish Independance all together = What a freaking nightmare for parliament.

That's why I believe a referendum need to be agreed between Scotland and the UK.  It affects all of us.

 

 

The thing about life is that there will always be some crisis to throw up a potential road block. The cack handed manner in which our useless prime minister has handled covid, for example, shows why we need to cut our ties with the UK and not allow it to further drag my country down. 

 

I can't guarantee that independence would bring us faster and better out of the dual disasters of covid and Brexit, but I am certain that the Westminster government will continue screw up both, and that which they don't screw up they will continue to exploit for their own gain. 

 

Is it really such a difficult choice, certain bad or possible not so bad/better/good? 

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I would hope that most people can see that the pursuit of independence is unrelated to the travails of the SNP. The SNP is the most likely vehicle to a much better place; they are not the destination. 

Frankly, I can't see that. The SNP in its current incarnation is effectively the independence campaign.It dominates and controls it. It's leadership is determined to achieve independence, at all costs. They dominates the current political landscape in Scotland and no doubt intend and plan to do so post independence.

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Frankly, I can't see that. The SNP in its current incarnation is effectively the independence campaign.It dominates and controls it. It's leadership is determined to achieve independence, at all costs. They dominates the current political landscape in Scotland and no doubt intend and plan to do so post independence.

 

What they intend to do and what looks probable may be two very different things. 

 

We see already the very significant split in fundamental ideology among senior members; their uniting belief is independence. After that has been achieved, the SNP will splinter. 

 

That is why a vote for the SNP benefits independence but a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP. 

[sharksy]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The thing about life is that there will always be some crisis to throw up a potential road block. The cack handed manner in which our useless prime minister has handled covid, for example, shows why we need to cut our ties with the UK and not allow it to further drag my country down. 

 

I can't guarantee that independence would bring us faster and better out of the dual disasters of covid and Brexit, but I am certain that the Westminster government will continue screw up both, and that which they don't screw up they will continue to exploit for their own gain. 

 

Is it really such a difficult choice, certain bad or possible not so bad/better/good? 

You've held this debate going quite well overall, put this statement is crass in comparison.

Saying that Scottish Independance is just another life crisis is rather immature.

If Scotland wasn't in the UK, you wouldn't be getting all these Covid Jabs, so can't knock Boris on that score.  Talk about biting the hand that feed you.

Yes, it really is a bad option - Scotland is not ready for independance (yet).

 

[RuamRudy]

41 minutes ago, sharksy said:

You've held this debate going quite well overall, put this statement is crass in comparison.

Saying that Scottish Independance is just another life crisis is rather immature.

If Scotland wasn't in the UK, you wouldn't be getting all these Covid Jabs, so can't knock Boris on that score.  Talk about biting the hand that feed you.

Yes, it really is a bad option - Scotland is not ready for independance (yet).

 

 

Yes, that's right - the UK being the only country in the world to initiate a vaccination program, we most join you in gathering at the feet of Johnson the magnificent.

 

Sadly for far too many, his magnificence was somewhat delayed, but revisionism is the trademark of Brexiteers (I am assuming you are a Brexiteer) and I am sure that his cult followers will continue to deny the reality of his manifest failings. 

 

But I think you failed to understand my point. Crises are the stuff of life and of governments. There will never be an optimum time to break from the UK; it will jar regardless of when it comes. Just ask Mogg - he thrives on the credo of out of disaster comes opportunity. 

 

It's particularly ironic that you call my post immature but then you cannot help but finish with a rather weak insult. So my country is not yet capable of managing its own affairs? Ok, thanks for your assessment, unqualified as it was. I will file it appropriately. 

[tebee]

Even Scottish Tories are  admitting there could be a second independence  referendum !

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/tory-attack-on-snp-ridiculed-by-independence-supporters-7787892

 

Scottish Tories admit second referendum could follow May elections

 

 

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

Even Scottish Tories are  admitting there could be a second independence  referendum !

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/tory-attack-on-snp-ridiculed-by-independence-supporters-7787892

 

Scottish Tories admit second referendum could follow May elections

 

 

 

I am actually starting to wonder whether the end of the union will be instigated by Scotland or from elsewhere. Independence by default will, of course, be as welcome as by referendum (apologies for linking to the Express). 

 

Is this what we voted for? Devastating Brexit poll sheds light on splintering UK trade

 

[sandyf]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:26 PM, herfiehandbag said:

Frankly, I can't see that. The SNP in its current incarnation is effectively the independence campaign.It dominates and controls it. It's leadership is determined to achieve independence, at all costs. They dominates the current political landscape in Scotland and no doubt intend and plan to do so post independence.

People are not always right, brexit has proved that beyond a shadow of doubt.

In a democracy don't the people have the right to choose if they want to make a mistake or not, did the people vote for the SNP or not?

Bojo claimed the vote for his party in the last election was a mandate for brexit, isn't there a saying about geese and ganders.

 

[sandyf]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:10 AM, herfiehandbag said:

Scotland is not a colony. It was not taken over. It is part of the United Kingdom. If it wishes to leave that is also a matter for the United Kingdom.

It was taken over.

Following the Act of Unions, the English Parliament, being the larger, announced it would be the parliament of the union and immediately dissolved the Scottish parliament.

Remind me, how many national parliaments has the European parliament dissolved?

Did the EU have any say in holding the brexit referendum?

Obviously some unions are more of a union than others.

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, sandyf said:

People are not always right, brexit has proved that beyond a shadow of doubt.

In a democracy don't the people have the right to choose if they want to make a mistake or not, did the people vote for the SNP or not?

Bojo claimed the vote for his party in the last election was a mandate for brexit, isn't there a saying about geese and ganders.

 

 

Looks like the SNP will self destruct before a second Indyref. The bitter infighting has reached epic proportions which is really embarrassing for Scottish politics. The Crown office has made terrible decisions that almost make the EU look transparent and democratic in comparison. What a mess. Maybe Boris had a point.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56188485

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Looks like the SNP will self destruct before a second Indyref. The bitter infighting has reached epic proportions which is really embarrassing for Scottish politics. The Crown office has made terrible decisions that almost make the EU look transparent and democratic in comparison. What a mess. Maybe Boris had a point.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56188485

 

Hyperbole and spin doesn't make it any different to the internal disputes of other parties, whether it be the hard rights v centrist of the Nasty Party, or the hard left v. Centrist of Labour. Were those struggles embarrassments to UK politics? Does the rampant corruption of Matt Hancock and the rest of the cabinet bring shame on us all? Actually, that last point does...

 

But again, the SNP is not the end goal. I suspect that there might be some MPs and MSPs setting out their stalls early, making a pitch for their place in the political future of an independent Scotland. 

 

Because, let's face it, the UK has never looked so weak or pathetic as it does now, a mangy old lion, isolated and ostracised by the rest of the pride, the vultures circling overhead. Tick tock.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Hyperbole and spin doesn't make it any different to the internal disputes of other parties, whether it be the hard rights v centrist of the Nasty Party, or the hard left v. Centrist of Labour. Were those struggles embarrassments to UK politics? Does the rampant corruption of Matt Hancock and the rest of the cabinet bring shame on us all? Actually, that last point does...

 

But again, the SNP is not the end goal. I suspect that there might be some MPs and MSPs setting out their stalls early, making a pitch for their place in the political future of an independent Scotland. 

 

Because, let's face it, the UK has never looked so weak or pathetic as it does now, a mangy old lion, isolated and ostracised by the rest of the pride, the vultures circling overhead. Tick tock.

Nice deflection ????.

 

I can understand why you'd want to avoid discussing the machiavellian antics of the Sturgeon and the Scottish Nasty Party. Especially when their self destruction will ruin your mission of breaking up the UK. You could be in for another tough year.

[Neeranam]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:10 AM, herfiehandbag said:

Scotland is not a colony. It was not taken over. It is part of the United Kingdom. If it wishes to leave that is also a matter for the United Kingdom.

Scotland was colonized. 

 

Here is a definition of colonization-

 

It seems generally, if not universally, agreed that colonialism is a form of domination – the control by individuals or groups over the territory and/or behaviour of other individuals or groups. (Colonialism has also been seen as a form of exploitation, with emphasis on economic variables, as in the Marxist-Leninist literature, and as a culture-change process, as in anthropology… The idea of domination is closely related to the concept of power. (Horvath, 1972)

 

 

Political union in Britain, itself a contradiction of Scots law, was from the outset viewed by England as a means of securing domination over the Scots (Pittock, 1997), and as a method of insuring the acculturation of Scotland to England as part of a wider process of safeguarding English cultural dominance over the whole of Britain (Defoe, 1706). Westminster has always understood its own Act of Union with the parliament of Scotland as the absorption of Scotland into itself own domain, and the lack of parliamentary parity between the two states in the British polity has made English domination an effective reality.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

 Scotland has become the only oil producing nation in the world to become poorer since the discovery of these resources, the City of London has financialised itself on the back of Scotland’s oil.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Nice deflection ????.

 

I can understand why you'd want to avoid discussing the machiavellian antics of the Sturgeon and the Scottish Nasty Party. Especially when their self destruction will ruin your mission of breaking up the UK. You could be in for another tough year.

 

There was no deflection, merely me pointing out to you that intrigue is standard for political parties. You would have to have been living in a cave to think otherwise. 

 

That's why I suggest that your glee is somewhat overegged and that my mission to break up the UK will continue unimpeded. Even the rather dull witted Scottish Tories can see that. 

 

Who do you think will succeed in their aim first, the Northern Irish, who now realise that they have been shafted by Brexit, or the Scots, who always knew that Brexit was a fool's errand? 

[RuamRudy]

31 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Scotland was colonized. 

 

Here is a definition of colonization-

 

It seems generally, if not universally, agreed that colonialism is a form of domination – the control by individuals or groups over the territory and/or behaviour of other individuals or groups. (Colonialism has also been seen as a form of exploitation, with emphasis on economic variables, as in the Marxist-Leninist literature, and as a culture-change process, as in anthropology… The idea of domination is closely related to the concept of power. (Horvath, 1972)

 

 

Political union in Britain, itself a contradiction of Scots law, was from the outset viewed by England as a means of securing domination over the Scots (Pittock, 1997), and as a method of insuring the acculturation of Scotland to England as part of a wider process of safeguarding English cultural dominance over the whole of Britain (Defoe, 1706). Westminster has always understood its own Act of Union with the parliament of Scotland as the absorption of Scotland into itself own domain, and the lack of parliamentary parity between the two states in the British polity has made English domination an effective reality.

 

I was not a very questioning child so while I did wonder why, in school, we were taught about the battle of Hastings and the war of the Roses and suchlike but very little about Scottish history, I never asked my teachers why the curriculum was structured thus.

 

Of course, we know now the efforts were to create a supra-English homogeneity, and we see these efforts continue to this day as English people on this thread and in the real world deride the attempts made to maintain our culture and languages. Sadly there are even some Scots too who are also filled with such bitterness and hatred for our past. 

 

Thankfully such anglocentric thinking is on the decline and we see huge demand for Gaelic medium schools all over the west coast, from Glasgow to Caithness. 

[JonnyF]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Who do you think will succeed in their aim first, the Northern Irish, who now realise that they have been shafted by Brexit, or the Scots, who always knew that Brexit was a fool's errand? 

 

My heart says the Scots. They've bitten the hand that feeds them long enough and I'd be delighted to see the back of them. Besides, the Northern Irish are a wonderful people and a fantastic part of the UK.

 

My head says neither. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

My heart says the Scots. They've bitten the hand that feeds them long enough and I'd be delighted to see the back of them. Besides, the Northern Irish are a wonderful people and a fantastic part of the UK.

 

My head says neither. 

 

If only there were a few more people like English Patriot we might see our mutual wishes met.

 

 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If only there were a few more people like English Patriot we might see our mutual wishes met.

 

Unfortunately we both have to give losers consent.

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, we know now the efforts were to create a supra-English homogeneity, and we see these efforts continue to this day as English people on this thread and in the real world deride the attempts made to maintain our culture and languages.

Wow! Talk about chippy!

 

It may interest you (no, it probably doesn't) but the first - and only - prize I won last school was for English. Inspired by Shakespeare's Macbeth (a set book for O level) and taught by my English teacher, a wonderful Scotsman called Bill Currie (God rest his soul) who had flown gliders in 2 airborne assaults during the war, and therefore had a wonderfully iconoclastic view of life, I chose John Prebble's book "The Lion in the North", a history of Scotland up to the Act of Union. The first history book I read from choice. A fantastic story. I must reread it.

 

My point is that the cultures of England and Scotland have always been closely linked, their political life for well over 300 years, and economically for at least the last 250. Longer in fact than the United States have existed. That is why it is the United Kingdom. The greatest developments in both countries' history, the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, the rise of parliamentary democracy together with constitutional monarchy, and the development of a modern society, not to mention the historical achievements of building and divesting ourselves (largely peacefully) of The British Empire and the pivotal role played in the modern history of Europe have all occurred as a United Kingdom.

 

I believe that splitting the United Kingdom would belittle all it's nations, but non more than Scotland. To do so in the pursuit of personal political ambitions, or to satisfy some individuals perceived dislike ("chippiness") of "the English" would be very sad.

Edited February 25, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

 Scotland has become the only oil producing nation in the world to become poorer since the discovery of these resources, the City of London has financialised itself on the back of Scotland’s oil.

Really? Scotland owns that oil? I'll counter that it is UK oil. I'd like to be proved wrong, if you can.

 

City of London? Never heard of that independent state.

[Nout]

Corruption at the heart SNP

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9297015/ANDREW-NEIL-Nicola-Sturgeons-storm-troops-turned-Scotland-banana-republic.html

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Wow! Talk about chippy!

 

It may interest you (no, it probably doesn't) but the first - and only - prize I won last school was for English. Inspired by Shakespeare's Macbeth (a set book for O level) and taught by my English teacher, a wonderful Scotsman called Bill Currie (God rest his soul) who had flown gliders in 2 airborne assaults during the war, and therefore had a wonderfully iconoclastic view of life, I chose John Prebble's book "The Lion in the North", a history of Scotland up to the Act of Union. The first history book I read from choice. A fantastic story. I must reread it.

 

My point is that the cultures of England and Scotland have always been closely linked, their political life for well over 300 years, and economically for at least the last 250. Longer in fact than the United States have existed. That is why it is the United Kingdom. The greatest developments in both countries' history, the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions, the rise of parliamentary democracy together with constitutional monarchy, and the development of a modern society, not to mention the historical achievements of building and divesting ourselves (largely peacefully) of The British Empire and the pivotal role played in the modern history of Europe have all occurred as a United Kingdom.

 

I believe that splitting the United Kingdom would belittle all it's nations, but non more than Scotland. To do so in the pursuit of personal political ambitions, or to satisfy some individuals perceived dislike ("chippiness") of "the English" would be very sad.

 

I genuinely expected better of you than this. There is no dislike of English people in my post, or in any of my posts. I have not derided the history of your country nor have I belittled or questioned the varied and wonderful cultural facets it boasts. I have certainly given you no reason to write such statements as this:

 

4 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Wow! Talk about chippy!

or this:

4 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

It may interest you (no, it probably doesn't)

 

I have made no suggestion that English history is anything other than rich, fascinating and something to be respected. I did, however, question why my own country's history was ignored while children were taught about the history of what was a separate country. I struggle to see why that would be so objectionable to you. Would you be happy for your children to learn about Scottish history in the middle ages at the cost of not learning of their own heritage? You said yourself that the story of Scotland prior to the act of union is fascinating - so why was it eschewed in Scottish schools so we could learn about the English civil war?