17 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Not true, EU didn't change anything. The same rules apply as before, with a distinction in rules between countries in the free trade zone and countries outside of it.

Maybe the position of the UK has changed?

The products didn’t change. EU application of rules did. 

23 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The products didn’t change. EU application of rules did. 

That's what happens when you're outside of the free trade zone in stead of inside. EU rules haven't changed at all, despite claims on this forum, but UK's position has.

On 2/2/2021 at 7:29 AM, edwinchester said:

Must be that fantastic easy to negotiate free trade deal we heard so much of during the referendum that's to blame.

It can be except there are some very obnoxious petty EU countries who make trouble. They do it not just to UK but to others as well. Ask Poland about the "bullies of Belgium". 

 

EU  trade policy is biased in favour of some countries political interests depending on  election cycle. Now it is Macron the fool playing politics. Before it is Belgium and Luxembourg. From EU report this year;

 

"EU is involved in 46  WTO disputes, and 3 disputes under FTAs: in 28 of these cases the EU is the complaining party while in the remaining 21 cases the EU is on the defending side. These cases relate to the EU’s relations with 15 of its trading partners (in WTO: Argentina, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, India, Indonesia, Philippines, Russia, Thailand, Turkey and the US; under FTAs: Korea, SACU and Ukraine).

 

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

That's what happens when you're outside of the free trade zone in stead of inside. EU rules haven't changed at all, despite claims on this forum, but UK's position has.

No. It is what happens when vindictive  bullies in small number of countries are unchecked. Easy to say "EU", but majority of countries are not supporting this short sighted stupidity. This has little support from EU members like Finland, Greece, Poland, Baltic states.  This abuse is being pushed by France and Belgium with some support from Germany who waivers. 

 

The problems of EU are almost always because of France and Belgium with puppet master Germany trying to push their policies on others. They are called les vieilles tantes en colère - the angry old aunts with good reason.

11 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

No. It is what happens when vindictive  bullies in small number of countries are unchecked. Easy to say "EU", but majority of countries are not supporting this short sighted stupidity. This has little support from EU members like Finland, Greece, Poland, Baltic states.  This abuse is being pushed by France and Belgium with some support from Germany who waivers. 

 

The problems of EU are almost always because of France and Belgium with puppet master Germany trying to push their policies on others. They are called les vieilles tantes en colère - the angry old aunts with good reason.

There you go, thanks for confirming my post. You're outside of the EU, do rules for countries outside of the free trade zone apply. 

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

But we didn’t get the clinically clean Brexit. We got a ‘deal’ in which there are still the meddlesome fingers of the EU and its’ red tape. It is the EU belligerence and application of that deal that is causing the current issues for EU imports. 

. 

 

It's not the application of the deal. Without the deal you would have had exactly the same paperwork, but with customs duty on top.

 

You say you want sovereignty. Unfortunately for you the EU is also sovereign. You want to sell stuff to them you have to obey their rules.

 

Because of your sovereignty you say "my rules may not be the same as your rules" Then you need to provide all that paperwork for each thing you sell to prove it adheres to their rules.   

 

Every trade deal involves some loss of  sovereignty, just the act of selling to another country  invokes some loss of sovereignty.

 

In many ways  we have less sovereignty now, because before we were part of the rule makers, now we just have to accept others rules.

 

This is an inevitable consequence of wanting to trade - unless you want to adopt the North Korea model.

 

With every other trade deal, unless you want to accept their rules and standards as your own (and  lose sovereignty), you are going to have a similar mound of paperwork.

 

 

6 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

No. It is what happens when vindictive  bullies in small number of countries are unchecked. Easy to say "EU", but majority of countries are not supporting this short sighted stupidity. This has little support from EU members like Finland, Greece, Poland, Baltic states.  This abuse is being pushed by France and Belgium with some support from Germany who waivers. 

 

The problems of EU are almost always because of France and Belgium with puppet master Germany trying to push their policies on others. They are called les vieilles tantes en colère - the angry old aunts with good reason.

 

Have you never wondered about why all those countries were so happy to be part of the EU - because before they joined their exports had to provide all these mounds of paperwork !

8 hours ago, Loiner said:

The products didn’t change. EU application of rules did. 

No they did not.

 

The rules were applied to trade with not EU nations.

 

Brexit took the UK out of the EU and into the nations to which the rules applied,

 

 

On 2/2/2021 at 11:53 AM, snoop1130 said:

Spurrell can no longer sell cheese gift boxes worth around 25 pounds to the EU through his online shop because each consignment needs to be accompanied by a health certificate signed off by a vet that costs 180 pounds per consignment, regardless of size.

 

The company has therefore put on hold plans for a 1 million pound new distribution centre in Macclesfield, northern England, and is instead considering setting up its own hub in France, where it can still ship on a wholesale basis.

Just set your hub in France, you'll get rid of the paperwork and have easy access to the single market the UK has left.

 

 

 

note that we have fresh stats on trade going the other way: German exports to the UK .. and that was before Brexit and Covid-19

 

(Translation of the original article)

 

Quote

between 2015 and 2019, German exports to Great Britain, down by more than 11%, relegated the British economy from third to fifth place in German foreign trade.

 

 

Quote

One of its most dynamic players, the automotive sector, whose sales of cars and parts fell 23% in Britain during this period, is particularly vulnerable. This downward trend is set to intensify due to the devaluation of the pound sterling (by 13.5%) against the euro, which is however powerless to revive the sales of British products in Germany, according to the figures. provided by the German Chamber of Industry and Commerce.

 

Quote

Currently, there are 2,267 German companies, or more than 439,000 employees, established in the United Kingdom, and 79% of them consider the situation worrying, convinced that the United Kingdom could be classified among the unattractive economies, just before… Iran!

 

 

 

 

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2021/02/06/les-relations-commerciales-entre-l-allemagne-et-le-royaume-uni-patissent-de-l-impact-du-brexit_6069007_3232.html

 

 

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

That's what happens when you're outside of the free trade zone in stead of inside. EU rules haven't changed at all

indeed the rules are exactly the same, the difference is the UK chose to leave the single market, that's all

 

 

5 hours ago, tebee said:

 

It's not the application of the deal. Without the deal you would have had exactly the same paperwork, but with customs duty on top.

 

You say you want sovereignty. Unfortunately for you the EU is also sovereign. You want to sell stuff to them you have to obey their rules.

 

Because of your sovereignty you say "my rules may not be the same as your rules" Then you need to provide all that paperwork for each thing you sell to prove it adheres to their rules.   

 

Every trade deal involves some loss of  sovereignty, just the act of selling to another country  invokes some loss of sovereignty.

 

In many ways  we have less sovereignty now, because before we were part of the rule makers, now we just have to accept others rules.

 

This is an inevitable consequence of wanting to trade - unless you want to adopt the North Korea model.

 

With every other trade deal, unless you want to accept their rules and standards as your own (and  lose sovereignty), you are going to have a similar mound of paperwork.

 

 

 

Disagree. The EU is not sovereign in the true and full definition of the word - it just uses elements of shared sovereignty allowed by members through EU treaties. 

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Disagree. The EU is not sovereign in the true and full definition of the word - it just uses elements of shared sovereignty allowed by members through EU treaties. 

now, regarding trade in the single market, we're getting very close to "the true and full definition of the word"

Not just cheese it would appear

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/06/fury-at-gove-as-exports-to-eu-slashed-by-68-since-brexit

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Disagree. The EU is not sovereign in the true and full definition of the word - it just uses elements of shared sovereignty allowed by members through EU treaties. 

They make the rules. You have to obey those rules if you want to sell to them/visit them etc.

 

What's not sovereign about that?

 

And remember the UK is also a confederation of sovereign nations. The clue is in the name.

23 minutes ago, tebee said:

They make the rules. You have to obey those rules if you want to sell to them/visit them etc.

 

What's not sovereign about that?

 

And remember the UK is also a confederation of sovereign nations. The clue is in the name.

But as it stands at this moment in time we are called the United Kingdom, that is the country we live in, we are not classed as 4 nations and even the EU does not class Scotland or any of us as seperate nations. Scotland and Wales recently applied to join the Erasmus program and was turned down by the EU for not being countries.

 

"The European Commission has appeared to have ended early Welsh and Scottish hopes of rejoining the Erasmus scheme.

An EU Commission spokesperson told reporters that because Scotland and Wales were not independent countries but parts of the UK, that they would not be able to join the programme."

 

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/europe-news/eu-commission-erasmus-scotland-and-wales-7308036

59 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Disagree. The EU is not sovereign in the true and full definition of the word - it just uses elements of shared sovereignty allowed by members through EU treaties. 

That’s a strange argument for a Brexiteer  to

be making given the part loss of sovereignty and the specter of a Federal Europe have played in Brexit propaganda.

1 hour ago, tebee said:

They make the rules. You have to obey those rules if you want to sell to them/visit them etc.

 

What's not sovereign about that?

 

And remember the UK is also a confederation of sovereign nations. The clue is in the name.

 

Confederation? Like in Star Trek? 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That’s a strange argument for a Brexiteer  to

be making given the part loss of sovereignty and the specter of a Federal Europe have played in Brexit propaganda.

 

From that post it looks like you win the strange prize.

44 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

From that post it looks like you win the strange prize.

No you already got that:

 

50 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Confederation? Like in Star Trek? 

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Confederation? Like in Star Trek? 

The USA started out as a Confederation of sovereign states (Articles of Confederation 1777) - probably why we refer to the 50 states as states even though now the USA is a federation. 

 

The event that created the Dominion of Canada in 1867 was called Confederation but in actuality Canada has been a federation since that point in time... just one of the most decentralized ones. 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Confederation? Like in Star Trek? 

Would you rather I called it a Union then?

 

I think that that would help bring out the fact that the UK and the EU both derive their own sovereignty from their constituent nation states.

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

The USA started out as a Confederation of sovereign states (Articles of Confederation 1777) - probably why we refer to the 50 states as states even though now the USA is a federation. 

 

The event that created the Dominion of Canada in 1867 was called Confederation but in actuality Canada has been a federation since that point in time... just one of the most decentralized ones. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds good.

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No you already got that:

 

 

 

Nah, I just claimed the Confederation Cup.

On 02/02/2021 at 2:41 PM, ukrules said:

 

If they're not then they soon will be plus a lot more besides.

 

Two can play at this game.

 

Target all major imports from the EU to the UK and ramp up the paperwork requirements and certification.

 

Can you still buy French cheeses in the UK?

 

So a lose - lose Brexit then. 

7 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Not just cheese it would appear

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/06/fury-at-gove-as-exports-to-eu-slashed-by-68-since-brexit

I live in the Schengen zone now and I haven't really noticed any difference. What does the UK actually export to the EU that I could possibly miss?

Le Brexit. ????

44 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I live in the Schengen zone now and I haven't really noticed any difference. What does the UK actually export to the EU that I could possibly miss?

No idea, but clearly they are exporting a lot less of it now. 

7 hours ago, vogie said:

But as it stands at this moment in time we are called the United Kingdom, that is the country we live in, we are not classed as 4 nations and even the EU does not class Scotland or any of us as seperate nations. Scotland and Wales recently applied to join the Erasmus program and was turned down by the EU for not being countries.

 

"The European Commission has appeared to have ended early Welsh and Scottish hopes of rejoining the Erasmus scheme.

An EU Commission spokesperson told reporters that because Scotland and Wales were not independent countries but parts of the UK, that they would not be able to join the programme."

 

 

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/europe-news/eu-commission-erasmus-scotland-and-wales-7308036

This is interesting, but I does it mean the door is really closed?

 

Like, if the English let them .. 

 

... then the UK can set up a special Erasmus variant, in which the Welsh and the Scots can take part like Northern Ireland does at present? 

 

Not sure of this, though 

22 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

This is interesting, but I does it mean the door is really closed?

 

Like, if the English let them .. 

 

... then the UK can set up a special Erasmus variant, in which the Welsh and the Scots can take part like Northern Ireland does at present? 

 

Not sure of this, though 

Northern Ireland students can take part Erasmus because its being funded by the Republic of Ireland

NI students can have British and Irish passports and if they want to join  Erasmus they need to register with an Republic of Ireland college that takes part in  Erasmus

Erasmus was 'bloated, bureaucratic' and cost UK £2 billion, Education Secretary says

The new “Turing scheme” is being set up to fund British students from deprived communities to study or work abroad

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/06/erasmus-bloated-bureaucratic-cost-uk-2-billion-year-education/

 

Now if a European Country wants to pay and sponsor Welsh and the Scots students and sort of any immigration issues with their relevant countries for courses that last more than 90 days then there is nothing stopping any European Country that wan'ts to offer such service to Welsh and the Scots students although they would have to understand it would be one way only Welsh and the Scots students to Europe.