International Criminal Court says it has jurisdiction in Palestinian territories

[Morch]

23 minutes ago, Tarteso said:

That’s right about Hamas, but I have my own criteria and point of view very clear, especially when it comes to humanitarian issues.  If the United Nations recognizes the borders, logically there is a Palestinian State even if it lacks independence. 

 

Your point of view is far from clear if you cite conditions in the Gaza Strip as applying to all Palestinians (like those living in the West Bank). It is also unclear why you leave Egypt out of it.

 

The Palestinians could have declared independence at any given time over the years. Could have proclaimed themselves a state with all that this implies. Instead, they've gone for some hybrid construct - a state for some purposes, not a state for others. So again, less clear cut then claimed.

 

The UN does not actually 'recognize the borders' as such. The 'borders' often referred to are the either the long obsolete partition lines of 1947, or the cease fire lines of 1967. For over a decade now, the Palestinians have, de facto, two 'states'.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Anybody who has nothing to hide should welcome international investigations.

They only reason to oppose these investigations is that they have something to hide and/or know they are guilty. 

 

 

If the international investigation, and the body conducting it is accepted as impartial, objective and even handed. Or further, if the authority of the body in question is accepted.

 

If the investigation is seen as biased to begin with, that's one good reason to reject it.

[Pattaya Spotter]

15 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Anybody who has nothing to hide should welcome international investigations.

They only reason to oppose these investigations is that they have something to hide and/or know they are guilty. 

 

I believe the main concern most people have is that the prosecutors and judges serving at the ICC approach their work with pre-conceived biases against certain countries, issues, and political parties/movements.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[simple1]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

What do you know about ' life in the occupied territories" huh? beyond what you read from bias antisemitic sources? fro your information, the ICC has authorized the spacial prosecutor to indict all, Hamas, the Palestinians and the Israelis on war crimes charges. it pays to read up and learn before making irresponsible snide remarks...

 

Pot. kettle, black...a reminder from your first post in this topic "this bias fat cow".

Edited February 6, 2021 by simple1

[2530Ubon]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

President Trump and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told the ICC what they can do with their jurisdiction...I suggest the Israelis do likewise.

 

Yes, let's all copy what Trump did... worked out well for him didn't it? Oh no, it didn't, he was booted out of office rather convincingly by a landslide loss.

 

Anyway, that's what the Chinese do - ignore international courts and laws. Should everyone become like the CCP - a lawless power only considering their own needs and wants without regard for others?

Edited February 6, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[Tarteso]

34 minutes ago, Morch said:

The UN does not actually 'recognize the borders' as such

where is the contradiction?..The International Court of Justice, the General Assembly of the United Nations and the Security Council of the United Nations, classify Israel as "Occupying Power"

We know that Israel ,unilaterally, withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 and declared that it was no longer occupying the strip.  However, since it still retains control of the air and coastal space in the area.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Tarteso

[Sujo]

43 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Your point of view is far from clear if you cite conditions in the Gaza Strip as applying to all Palestinians (like those living in the West Bank). It is also unclear why you leave Egypt out of it.

 

The Palestinians could have declared independence at any given time over the years. Could have proclaimed themselves a state with all that this implies. Instead, they've gone for some hybrid construct - a state for some purposes, not a state for others. So again, less clear cut then claimed.

 

The UN does not actually 'recognize the borders' as such. The 'borders' often referred to are the either the long obsolete partition lines of 1947, or the cease fire lines of 1967. For over a decade now, the Palestinians have, de facto, two 'states'.

Israel has no borders.

[Tarteso]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Israel has no borders.

Have...Thanks to the colonial powers

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

If the international investigation, and the body conducting it is accepted as impartial, objective and even handed. Or further, if the authority of the body in question is accepted.

 

If the investigation is seen as biased to begin with, that's one good reason to reject it.

Most countries in this word think the international court is impartial, objective and even handed.

But then there are of course some politicians in some countries who don't like those courts. Somehow they believe they are special and above the law and everybody who even thinks about criticizing them must be antisemitist ...

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I believe the main concern most people have is that the prosecutors and judges serving at the ICC approach their work with pre-conceived biases against certain countries, issues, and political parties/movements.

It appears you have a preconceived bias about how prosecutors and judges serving at the ICC approach their work. Note, the ICC is investiagting war crimes by both sides!

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I believe the main concern most people have is that the prosecutors and judges serving at the ICC approach their work with pre-conceived biases against certain countries, issues, and political parties/movements.

And then there are some politicians who think their biases against certain countries, issues, and political parties/movements should be accepted because they are obviously special and better than those others.

 

[dexterm]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

Really Mr. Patongo mate? so you think you know everything about Israel-Palestinians affairs to come up with this nonsense of a post? this bias fat cow Fatou Bensouda has targeted Israeli politicians and army personal trying to drag them into the ICC court in the Huge without any success, she'll be gone soon and not a moment too soon...

>> this bias [sic] fat cow

...Your misogynistic post speaks volumes about your bigotry.

[Pattaya Spotter]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And then there are some politicians who think their biases against certain countries, issues, and political parties/movements should be accepted because they are obviously special and better than those others.

 

The ICC can do whatever it likes...the US isn't a member of the treaty establishing the Court and it has no jurisdiction in any territory of the United States. And if Ms. Bensouda, it's chief prosecutor steps in the U.S., she's subject to arrest and deportation.

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

Wasted breath trying to educate people with build in hatred and preconceived ideas and notions that Israel and the jews are always the evil one and the Palestinians are the poor underdogs.. and there are no shortage of them in this forum...

Why do you conflate Israel and Jews? There are many Israeli Jews, Israeli human rights organisations  and Jewry worldwide who condemn Israel's war crimes.

 

Note: Palestinians are being investigated for war rimes too.

Edited February 6, 2021 by dexterm

[darksidedog]

An off topic post and a reply have been removed.

Covid and how it is being addressed by governments, is not relevant to a discussion on ICC jurisdiction in Palestine.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Tarteso said:

where is the contradiction?..The International Court of Justice, the General Assembly of the United Nations and the Security Council of the United Nations, classify Israel as "Occupying Power"

We know that Israel ,unilaterally, withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 and declared that it was no longer occupying the strip.  However, since it still retains control of the air and coastal space in the area.

 

You said the borders are recognized, they are not. It's not about a contradiction, just a correction. In reality, most views are that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are Palestinian lands.

 

Israel's position as the occupying power is complicated due to the stalled peace process and the Oslo accords. These afforded the Palestinian a measure of self-rule, effectively and legally making Israel responsible for some things, but not all. Nowadays that's mostly applicable to the West Bank. The situation in the Gaza Strip is even more complicated, given Hamas's stance and it's split with the Palestinian Authority.

 

As mentioned earlier, and on many similar topics, the blockade on the Gaza Strip is in a large part a product of Hamas actions and policies. Also, it is effectively maintained by Egypt as well, on their side of the border - including maritime traffic.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Israel has no borders.

 

Inaccurate, but then you already knew that when going for a troll.

Israel got agreed upon borders with Egypt and Jordan. It's border with Lebanon is semi-agreed upon (and currently under negotiations). This leaves the borders with Syria and the would be Palestinian State.

[rudi49jr]

6 hours ago, rooster59 said:

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu denounced the decision, saying in a video statement: "When the ICC investigates Israel for fake war crimes, this is pure antisemitism."

I’m getting so fed up with that old rhetoric knee-jerk reaction. It is very well possible for someone to be critical of Israel and certain of its actions/policies without being antisemitic, but many seem to fail to see that distinction. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Tarteso said:

Have...Thanks to the colonial powers

 

Again, may wish to get better informed before posting. Israel's borders were the product of international recognition, wars and agreements with neighbors. This has little to do with the OP.

[OneMoreFarang]

31 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The ICC can do whatever it likes...the US isn't a member of the treaty establishing the Court and it has no jurisdiction in any territory of the United States. And if Ms. Bensouda, it's chief prosecutor steps in the U.S., she's subject to arrest and deportation.

It seems the ICC is more interested in what all those American soldiers do in the countries which their leaders decide to invade...

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Most countries in this word think the international court is impartial, objective and even handed.

But then there are of course some politicians in some countries who don't like those courts. Somehow they believe they are special and above the law and everybody who even thinks about criticizing them must be antisemitist ...

 

Russia, China, and the USA aren't members and do not recognize the court's authority. Same goes for other countries. In this case, several European countries opined to the court that it does not have jurisdiction. Not quite the wide brush attempt you went for.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, dexterm said:

It appears you have a preconceived bias about how prosecutors and judges serving at the ICC approach their work. Note, the ICC is investiagting war crimes by both sides!

 

Previous international investigations along similar lines failed to either actually investigate or seriously condemn the other side, focusing on Israel instead. Since the Hamas is not about to fully cooperate in any transparent way, why assume this is more than lip service?

 

Quite amusing though. Had the investigation been called off, or if findings fail to reach your standard of Israel hatred, I'm pretty sure the court would not receive quite the high regard exhibited above. Similarly, can already imagine the criticism on court's rulings with regard to the Hamas, if these won't be mild enough to ignore.

[Pattaya Spotter]

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems the ICC is more interested in what all those American soldiers do in the countries which their leaders decide to invade...

They can peak their interest all they want...I guarantee you they would never dare to indict an American for any action or incident that took anywhere on ????  I doubt they will ever indict any Chinese national for the Uygher genocide either...deposed tin-pot African dictators seem more their speed.

[Trentham]

3 hours ago, Tarteso said:

I have never been an anti-Semite, but that vile blockade killer tactic by which they push the people of Gaza to the brink of despair.
 

And this is the LIFE in the occupied territories, Mr. Pattongo; Currently 95% of the water is not drinkable, they only have access to 4 hours of electricity a day and the unemployment rate is 45% without the ability to move freely to other areas.  The Palestinian State has little chance of survival to defend their land.

 

I hope that this Lady Prosecutor manages to accuse Israel of war crimes, once and for all.

Accuse AND convict.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems the ICC is more interested in what all those American soldiers do in the countries which their leaders decide to invade...

 

And in order to investigate such matters, they'll need to interview a whole lot of American citizens. Kinda doubt all them witnesses will take the flight over.

 

It's the same with the OP - Israel would probably deny the court's personnel entry (effectively including the West Bank as well). Hamas is unlikely to cooperate and allow and open and transparent investigation on its own turf as well. This means testimonies would be partial, given in writing/video, and investigative teams not being on site. Good enough for a headline, not that great for a serious inquiry.

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

<snip>

Those not invested in Israel bashing would notice that the investigation also mentions war crimes by the Hamas.

Exactly, so why are many here seeing this as an attack on israel, some even claiming this is anti-semitism, when it clearly is about justice for both sides.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Exactly, so why are many here seeing this as an attack on israel, some even claiming this is anti-semitism, when it clearly is about justice for both sides.

 

I think most posters on this topic are bashing Israel, but didn't actually count. A couple seem to be on the vocal side echoing Netanyahu's words.

 

As said above, given previous investigations and general stance by UN bodies, it's legit for some to be weary of the investigation or doubt it to be impartial, even-handed or effective. Wouldn't know that it's about 'justice' or that it 'justice' can even be defined in this mess.

 

IMO, the court is treading a difficult line between the legal and the political.

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

If the international investigation, and the body conducting it is accepted as impartial, objective and even handed. Or further, if the authority of the body in question is accepted.

 

If the investigation is seen as biased to begin with, that's one good reason to reject it.

israel will always say it is biased, which doesnt make it so.

 

The icc can investigate, if any side obstructs then the ruling can be against they cannot complain.

 

Icc gives its findings. The world can then decide any actions it wants to take.

 

There is no reason to state an investigation is biased before its even started. Ive heard crazy things but that takes the cake.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The ICC can do whatever it likes...the US isn't a member of the treaty establishing the Court and it has no jurisdiction in any territory of the United States. And if Ms. Bensouda, it's chief prosecutor steps in the U.S., she's subject to arrest and deportation.

No idea what that has to do with anything. Icc can investigate any country, member or not.

 

If the country refuses to cooperate thats up to them. 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Sujo said:

israel will always say it is biased, which doesnt make it so.

 

The icc can investigate, if any side obstructs then the ruling can be against they cannot complain.

 

Icc gives its findings. The world can then decide any actions it wants to take.

 

There is no reason to state an investigation is biased before its even started. Ive heard crazy things but that takes the cake.

 

As said, previous investigation and the manner in which other UN bodies treat Israel make Israel's point of view at least partially credible. You wish to ignore past instances, or claim they were all objective and righteous, that is, of course, your choice.

 

I'm not sure how you mean 'cannot complain'. If that was some reference to a legal/appeal process, Israel is  not even a member of the ICC so that's out. If you meant the PR front, anyone can complain about anything.

 

The ICC gives it's findings to the UN, not up for international public opinion. This might serve to explain Israel being weary.

 

What's crazy about stating bias when the bias was expressed many a time?