Rent Increase

[Briggsy]

I have been in the same rented apartment for years. My relationship with the apartment has been untroubled. I have always found them easy to deal with. My rent has never increased although the building charge and utilities have gone up.

Recently they refurbished all the rooms. When my refurbishment was complete, I was asked to sign a completely blank rental contract. By that I mean, all the details such as dates, names and most importantly amounts were missing. I pointed out that the contract was blank. The girls on the counter said, "Never mind. It's the same except for a 20% rent increase." I wasn't too worried about the increase but I felt they should have informed me beforehand. I asked them to fill in the blanks and I would sign it.

A few days later, the now-completed contract was presented again to me. However they had written, "signed......26 Sept 2000". I said it was wrong because the rent increase applies only from April 2007 after the refurbishment not the date I moved in in Sept 2000. So I didn't sign it.

Can anyone explain this strange behaviour? Why are they trying to revise the original contract and make it look like it never existed?

[quiksilva]

You said an apartment, I take it by that, that you mean an apartment block with a single owner with units to rent to the public.

If I was being cynical I would suspect that they are trying to sell (or are in the process of selling) the property and are being very crafty and misreporting historical revenue so as to trick their buyer into paying an outlandish sum.

After all what would 7 years of 20% rental capitalised at say 6-8% pa be worth to them over the entire block?

[lingling]

Can anyone explain this strange behaviour? Why are they trying to revise the original contract and make it look like it never existed?

Pretty simple, they want you to sign so they can then ask you to pay the "underpaid" amount since Sept 2000. When does your current contract expire? That one is valid until it expires or until either party notifies the other that it is being cancelled (usually the grace period for that is stated in the contract). Just let them know that you will stay under your current terms until your contact expires, and then get a new apartment.

[backflip]

"Can anyone explain this strange behaviour? Why are they trying to revise the original contract and make it look like it never existed?"

When you asked them this question, what was their response?

[cclub75]

Can anyone explain this strange behaviour? Why are they trying to revise the original contract and make it look like it never existed?

Strange behaviour ?

What a delicious euphemism !

It's pure scam. Loi percent.

As said before in other replies... many scam would be possible with such "strange behaviour". Even some that could be bad for you.

Thai have a wild imagination in this field....

Stick to your first reaction : tell them to go to hel_l.

[Briggsy]

Like many situations in Thailand, when you deal with a company, you are often asked to deal with nongs on the front desk/phone/reception who do not have the authority to make decisions. Thus one simply receives a passed-on message. Any questions that the customer may have are often unanswered because the nongs are definitely not paid to think. The decision-maker is unavailable for average customers.

I have not signed the new contract but when I paid the rent, it included the increase for April. No worries there, it's still within my budget.

As I hinted earlier, this apartment block has always been reasonable and I am certain they would not try to backdate any rent increase. In fact the way they calculated it for April with so many days at this rate and so many days at the new rate tells me that this is not what is in their minds.

Rather, I suspect, this is connected to the law in Thailand concerning rent increases. I have heard it is very difficult under Thai law to put the rents up on sitting tenants. By trying to get me to sign blank contracts, I heavily suspect they were trying to slip it past me and circumvent the law which I don't know and wouldn't use any way.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Briggsy

[quiksilva]

Nope its actually very easy to put rents up on sitting tenants, just ask anyone who rents an office (the law does not differentiate between the two sectors) the landlord can ask for whatever he wants, if the market will accept it. As far as Thai law is concerned it is a contractual matter between two parties.

Edited May 16, 2007 by quiksilva

[Briggsy]

Nope its actually very easy to put rents up on sitting tenants, just ask anyone who rents an office (the law does not differentiate between the two sectors) the landlord can ask for whatever he wants, if the market will accept it. As far as Thai law is concerned it is a contractual matter between two parties.

Thanks for your comments. If this holds, it begs the question as to what recourse the landlord has if the rental increase is not accepted by the tenant.

This contradicts what I have heard from other sources. It would be interesting to research this topic a little further.

Would the fact that some contracts have no specified time limit work to the disadvantage of the landlord, I wonder?

[astral]

I would simply refuse to sign.

Only an idiot signs a blank contract form........... A real recipe for disaster.

If necessary I would fill in the details and then sign.

Even with the completed form I would ask a Thai friend to read it over to me so I understand what I am signing,

alternately take it away, saying "I will check with my lawyer".

[backflip]

"it begs the question..."

No, it does not.

"...what recourse the landlord has if the rental increase is not accepted"

Just like elsewhere: you'll get a notice to move, and then evicted - if you don't.

[bangkapiboy]

Don't sign don't sign. It will come back to bite you later when you decide to move and want your deposit back surely.

[appleman_thai]

I had to sign a whole range of contracts when I moved to Thailadn first - I was very reluctant.

I had to sign every single page of every document.

I found this OTT.

However, when they asked me to sign some blank pages then I refused....

I gave all the reasons why i logically couldnt do that.

I didnt sign and then had to go to a lot of offices that I wouldnt have had to go to.

2 years down the road if I am asked to sign a blank document by someone I know and trust then I will sign it!

Maybe I am becoming more "thai" - but I just found that it makes things easier.

Sure, I am opening up the risks that someone could put something else on the blank document.

But really, as a foreigner - does it really matter about rental contracts? Even if everything is signed off properly we really dont get much of a say if up against a Thai.

[MTW]

This makes me furious because I was asked to sign blank documents also after my house in Chiang Mai flooded along with my new car and motorbike, all under 6 feet of water, and all insured.

AND they asked me to pay for part of the repairs to my car, insisting that I should pay for wheel grease or some type of shit, about 20,000 baht, even though my car had less than 1500 kilometers on it when it got flooded. The insurance, directly purchased from Toyota tried to sell me on this idea for more than an hour. I would go for it IF I had a lot of mileage on the car, as this they tried to say was a repair "due to normal wear and tear." Had I given them this money, I believe they would have made a profit on repairing my car, which they never really did, even though they kept my car for over 3 months.

When I got my car back, it wouldn't even start. I had to go to my own mechanic at least 3-4 times, just to be able to fire up the engine, and when windows wouldn't go up or down, brake lights didn't work and I was rear-ended, as well as the key could not be released from the ignition several times, this was all my problem and NOT due to their lack of work.

I asked for reciepts that my car was repaired with genuine Toyota parts, that my airbags had been tested or replaced, per my contract, and all was said YES to although none of these things were ever done.

Other than stealing my CDs out of the stereo, I can't see that any work was done at all on my car.

Oh, and my house insurance also never paid me anything, not one dime. And I was refused another Thai drivers license because I did not have a work permit, which means NO Thai company will insure you even if they say they do ... because they do not accept International driver's license for insurance purposes.

And the police, when someone broke into my home, and my English Mastiff broke through my glass front door to attack them, and therefore got them out but almost died because he was so cut up, well they couldn't take a report because nothing had been stolen. I just had 20,000 baht of glass to repair from my dog, and from the glass they broke out of a window in back in order to get inside, but this is not enough to "make a report here" so my insurance could not pay that either!! At that time I didn't know you have to pay police here to even follow up on crimes when you are the victim, not just the crimimal trying to avoid jail.

Although this is off-topic, when people say they come here to live because it is cheaper, some of us cannot possibly factor in the rip-off factor, the lack of any law that protects us, and this difference can make several thousand dollars of difference each year. I no longer have any insurance because I think it is total BS unless you are connected and can collect.

And I have lost every deposit on houses I have rented here, not because I deserved that, but because the Thai landlord spent the money already and didn't have it to give back, and never expected to have to give it back. I am about to leave my 4th house and move into a house I bought. I will be "accidentally" taking some furniture with me this time, since I am sure the landlord will not be able to give me my two months deposit back. She cannot even pay the phone bill or internet bill each month, which was included when I paid her 14 months in advance ... in order to get a discount down to 20,000 baht a month, and this is Chiang Mai.

I am so sick of the BS here, and please, do not ever sign blank paperwork. You might as well just give them your ATM code and card, your wife, the keys to your car, and anything else you care about. And your Thai "friends" will tell you, that you are an ###### for not signing, and you are making problems. And yes, that may be true. The Thai people who sign, and are not well connected, will get screwed over the same as you. However, the Thai people who do sign, are probably well connected and will get good service no matter what they do, and us others will pay the price.

When I refused to sign and asked for some promises in writing, my fake "thai friend" walked out of the office, so upset that I was such a difficult farang, although he is too irresponsible and poor to even have car insurance, much less expect something back from it and then basically told me to F' OFF if I ever needed help again. But gee, he was not too shy to ask me for 100,000 baht loan for his business a week or two later. I owed this because he "had helped me you see."

In fact, another similar thing came up today. I am buying a house here. I paid already about 35% of the cost and have been waiting to close a bank account and have the rest of the money sent here. I am putting the house in my Thai boyfriend's name and leasing it. I have had several contracts drawn up from a local lawyer. Today, I went to see about the final lease contract and she told me such stupid crap that I will be giving her up and getting a different lawyer. However, according to her, I should pay the final money and transfer the name to my boyfriend and then, do the lease, about a month later so the land office doesn't suspect anything!!!

She seems to be totally unaware that once the house is in my boyfriend's name, that he could refuse to lease it to me, since I have already paid cash for the house ... AND IT IS NOW 100% IN HIS NAME, much less that the day the transfer happens, he could dissapear and never talk to me again. Her argument is that the land office might realize that I paid for the house and that the lease is BS and a way to circumvent the law here. Duh, isn't that what everyone does? Isn't a lease legal? If I am leasing the land, I am legal so why would I need to pretend that he bought it, found me later, and then leased it to me?

And then of course, she had no idea about taxes here, and just wanted me to sign a paper that said I paid him 1 million baht to lease the land. And also she wanted me to sign a "private agreement" that said I never paid him anything for the lease, but paid for the house of my own money, which is illegal, and this is supposed to support me in case I need to sue him. No need to tell me, I will be getting a new lawyer, and this will be the 4th since I have started this process.

[MTW]

Oh, I forgot to say, maybe my lawyer is my boyfriend's second wife?

[kratindaeng]

"In fact, another similar thing came up today. I am buying a house here..."

R u sure your making the right moves?!

[stevejones123]

If you can't trust your Thai boyfriend why buy him a house? What are you going to do if the land office refused to accept the lease, as your lawyer feels may well happen with the crackdown? Annual rental is around 5% of the value of property in Thailand, why run risks.

Basically you're trying to circumvent the law and then wondering why everything isn't straightforward.

[sukanyacondo]

This makes me furious because I was asked to sign blank documents also after my house in Chiang Mai flooded along with my new car and motorbike, all under 6 feet of water, and all insured.

AND they asked me to pay for part of the repairs to my car, insisting that I should pay for wheel grease or some type of shit, about 20,000 baht, even though my car had less than 1500 kilometers on it when it got flooded. The insurance, directly purchased from Toyota tried to sell me on this idea for more than an hour. I would go for it IF I had a lot of mileage on the car, as this they tried to say was a repair "due to normal wear and tear." Had I given them this money, I believe they would have made a profit on repairing my car, which they never really did, even though they kept my car for over 3 months.

When I got my car back, it wouldn't even start. I had to go to my own mechanic at least 3-4 times, just to be able to fire up the engine, and when windows wouldn't go up or down, brake lights didn't work and I was rear-ended, as well as the key could not be released from the ignition several times, this was all my problem and NOT due to their lack of work.

I asked for reciepts that my car was repaired with genuine Toyota parts, that my airbags had been tested or replaced, per my contract, and all was said YES to although none of these things were ever done.

Other than stealing my CDs out of the stereo, I can't see that any work was done at all on my car.

Oh, and my house insurance also never paid me anything, not one dime. And I was refused another Thai drivers license because I did not have a work permit, which means NO Thai company will insure you even if they say they do ... because they do not accept International driver's license for insurance purposes.

And the police, when someone broke into my home, and my English Mastiff broke through my glass front door to attack them, and therefore got them out but almost died because he was so cut up, well they couldn't take a report because nothing had been stolen. I just had 20,000 baht of glass to repair from my dog, and from the glass they broke out of a window in back in order to get inside, but this is not enough to "make a report here" so my insurance could not pay that either!! At that time I didn't know you have to pay police here to even follow up on crimes when you are the victim, not just the crimimal trying to avoid jail.

Although this is off-topic, when people say they come here to live because it is cheaper, some of us cannot possibly factor in the rip-off factor, the lack of any law that protects us, and this difference can make several thousand dollars of difference each year. I no longer have any insurance because I think it is total BS unless you are connected and can collect.

And I have lost every deposit on houses I have rented here, not because I deserved that, but because the Thai landlord spent the money already and didn't have it to give back, and never expected to have to give it back. I am about to leave my 4th house and move into a house I bought. I will be "accidentally" taking some furniture with me this time, since I am sure the landlord will not be able to give me my two months deposit back. She cannot even pay the phone bill or internet bill each month, which was included when I paid her 14 months in advance ... in order to get a discount down to 20,000 baht a month, and this is Chiang Mai.

I am so sick of the BS here, and please, do not ever sign blank paperwork. You might as well just give them your ATM code and card, your wife, the keys to your car, and anything else you care about. And your Thai "friends" will tell you, that you are an ###### for not signing, and you are making problems. And yes, that may be true. The Thai people who sign, and are not well connected, will get screwed over the same as you. However, the Thai people who do sign, are probably well connected and will get good service no matter what they do, and us others will pay the price.

When I refused to sign and asked for some promises in writing, my fake "thai friend" walked out of the office, so upset that I was such a difficult farang, although he is too irresponsible and poor to even have car insurance, much less expect something back from it and then basically told me to F' OFF if I ever needed help again. But gee, he was not too shy to ask me for 100,000 baht loan for his business a week or two later. I owed this because he "had helped me you see."

In fact, another similar thing came up today. I am buying a house here. I paid already about 35% of the cost and have been waiting to close a bank account and have the rest of the money sent here. I am putting the house in my Thai boyfriend's name and leasing it. I have had several contracts drawn up from a local lawyer. Today, I went to see about the final lease contract and she told me such stupid crap that I will be giving her up and getting a different lawyer. However, according to her, I should pay the final money and transfer the name to my boyfriend and then, do the lease, about a month later so the land office doesn't suspect anything!!!

She seems to be totally unaware that once the house is in my boyfriend's name, that he could refuse to lease it to me, since I have already paid cash for the house ... AND IT IS NOW 100% IN HIS NAME, much less that the day the transfer happens, he could dissapear and never talk to me again. Her argument is that the land office might realize that I paid for the house and that the lease is BS and a way to circumvent the law here. Duh, isn't that what everyone does? Isn't a lease legal? If I am leasing the land, I am legal so why would I need to pretend that he bought it, found me later, and then leased it to me?

And then of course, she had no idea about taxes here, and just wanted me to sign a paper that said I paid him 1 million baht to lease the land. And also she wanted me to sign a "private agreement" that said I never paid him anything for the lease, but paid for the house of my own money, which is illegal, and this is supposed to support me in case I need to sue him. No need to tell me, I will be getting a new lawyer, and this will be the 4th since I have started this process.

Thai landlords were one good reason I started my business, that said my wife got her deposit back from her Thai landlords without problems, some people do not leave their old rentals in a resonable condition when they are due to leave. I have found many people like to move into a spotless appartment but when they leave its like a pig sty and they wonder why the deposit is not forthcoming.

[MTW]

Well, I am not one of those people who do that. Otherwise I would state that my landlords deserved to keep the deposit and not worry about it. Are you not aware that many Thai people cannot manage their money and therefore, when you move out, do not have the deposit you paid them available to give back to you, or at least, that is what they say????

Maybe they all have 50 million baht in the bank, but still come up with the lie that they have no money to pay you? Either way, it was not what I expected when I paid and fullfilled my part of the contract.

I mean, can't you assume that I wouldn't write this if I left the houses "a pig sty" when I left?? Why don't you ask why I always do 100% of what I have contracted to do, and my Thai landlords do about 10% of what they contracted to do, and then they are curious why I move at the end of the year?

Are you a farang basher? I have left every home I lived in improved over the state it was in when I moved in, mostly because I think more long term than Thai people, and because I had stupid contracts that said I was responsible for all repairs, as well as any taxes that might come due. Unfortunately for me, I consider a repair more than a rubber band and paid for things as a western person might fix their own house.

[quiksilva]

Nope its actually very easy to put rents up on sitting tenants, just ask anyone who rents an office (the law does not differentiate between the two sectors) the landlord can ask for whatever he wants, if the market will accept it. As far as Thai law is concerned it is a contractual matter between two parties.

Thanks for your comments. If this holds, it begs the question as to what recourse the landlord has if the rental increase is not accepted by the tenant.

This contradicts what I have heard from other sources. It would be interesting to research this topic a little further.

Would the fact that some contracts have no specified time limit work to the disadvantage of the landlord, I wonder?

As Astral and Backflip mentioned if you don't agree, don't sign, there are plenty of other units for rent out there. The landlord has no recourse whatsoever, in a landlord's market they simply will not care if you move because they can replace the tenant easilly enough, however, fortunately for you that is not the case right now.

"time limit" do you mean to say that the duration of the lease term is not clearly specified? If that is the case stop wasting your time with this landlord and start apartment hunting, it sounds to me as if they have unstated plans for the place.

[Briggsy]

Nope its actually very easy to put rents up on sitting tenants, just ask anyone who rents an office (the law does not differentiate between the two sectors) the landlord can ask for whatever he wants, if the market will accept it. As far as Thai law is concerned it is a contractual matter between two parties.

Thanks for your comments. If this holds, it begs the question as to what recourse the landlord has if the rental increase is not accepted by the tenant.

This contradicts what I have heard from other sources. It would be interesting to research this topic a little further.

Would the fact that some contracts have no specified time limit work to the disadvantage of the landlord, I wonder?

As Astral and Backflip mentioned if you don't agree, don't sign, there are plenty of other units for rent out there. The landlord has no recourse whatsoever, in a landlord's market they simply will not care if you move because they can replace the tenant easilly enough, however, fortunately for you that is not the case right now.

"time limit" do you mean to say that the duration of the lease term is not clearly specified? If that is the case stop wasting your time with this landlord and start apartment hunting, it sounds to me as if they have unstated plans for the place.

The rental contract is open-ended. i.e. it has no fixed duration.

[quiksilva]

Then it would be a periodic tenancy (in English law, would have to check in Thailand but in theory the principal should hold true here too).

It essentially means that your tenancy is only good for the period between payments. e.g. if your rent is due monthly then you will have the right to stay there for that month only. However so long as they keep accepting your rent then you can continue to stay there, if however they decide not to accept the rent they can give you the old "heave ho" without prior notice.

You have no security of tenure here, so I suggest that you start looking elsewhere unless they will commit to a 12 month renewable lease as is standard in this market.

[tango]

I had to sign a whole range of contracts when I moved to Thailadn first - I was very reluctant.

I had to sign every single page of every document.

I found this OTT.

However, when they asked me to sign some blank pages then I refused....

I gave all the reasons why i logically couldnt do that.

I didnt sign and then had to go to a lot of offices that I wouldnt have had to go to.

2 years down the road if I am asked to sign a blank document by someone I know and trust then I will sign it!

Maybe I am becoming more "thai" - but I just found that it makes things easier.

Sure, I am opening up the risks that someone could put something else on the blank document.

But really, as a foreigner - does it really matter about rental contracts? Even if everything is signed off properly we really dont get much of a say if up against a Thai.

Hi M,

Whoa!!

Never ever sign anything blank, or in the Thai Language if you can not completely understand it. The Thai, not you, must obtain an English translation certified by a Government-certified translator. 'Caveat Emptor'- 'Buyer Beware' is never more true than here in Thailand.

Personally, I never sign any lease without ensuring NO deposit or only a maximum of 2 months deposit as landlords/ladies here in many cases consider your deposit to be their bonus. I currently lease with a 2 month deposit because I like the house and the location; BUT, the 2 month deposit is "first and last month"( written into the lease), thus after giving notice which I recently have done, I simply do not pay the last month's rent. Like you I put a lot into my rental residences: completely repainting inside and out, repairing the front gate, replacing the entire system of water pipes as the iron pipes in the walls rusted out, new lighting, wall receptacles; etc. I am moving because the entire house is quickly subsiding into the River Ping.

Always 'go gently into that good night'...whatever it is, speak softly and vote with your feet - leave before signing or committing yourself to anything anywhere anytime that you have not thought through, asked for advice, opinions, and slept on again and again. If for any reason you feel uneasy, then stop, cease, and end the matter. There is always something possibly a little better...always, including boyfriends or significant others. You as a farang must be married to a Thai if you wish to remain in Thailand. Girlfriend status is legal fantasy. Thai males always, always, trump females, married or not within the legal code. As for buying him a house... think again, you're smitten. The horror stories abound of males losing their entire life's savings buying houses and property in a Thai's name. Your 'boyfriend' should be buying you the house. If you must, OK but go the 30 year 'usufruct' route. You can have property manager rights with a lifetime usufruct (registered as the property manager on the title deed) and own the building structure in your name. This can in some jurisdictions apply to the land. Read carefully the Thai Visa site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=109777 , or you will end up losing everything. Search the term 'usufruct' on Thai Visa and digest all. It is your saviour. Also register your name on the back of the land papers as having extended the loan to your boyfriend to pay for the property, with the proviso that the money reverts to you in case of sale, or name change, or separation(should he take or already have a Thai wife). You need the double backup- both land and house- otherwise if he is on the land building a new house for his 2nd love, it will be a completely miserable life for you in the 1st house despite the usufruct (or 30 year lease).

As for your statement " 2 years down the road if I am asked to sign a blank document by someone I know and trust then I will sign it!' DON'T! My colleague was the director of a new English school in CMai, affiliated with a prominent Thai English-language newspaper. For months the dental doctor who owns the franchise kept telling him he was 'a fixed cost'. So he knew something was up. She canceled his fixed-contract after a year and a half, saying she has a new temp-contract calling for 500B per hour. It was all in Thai. He signed it without understanding, based on the reputation of the 'N'ewspaper. He was never given any work because she hired backpackers at 250Baht per hour. The Thai staff has never followed the franchise text, preferring to issue stacks of photocopies from their school English texts. A mess!! So much for trust in the 'Land of Smiles". Going along as my friend did, not wanting to rock the boat, and being the trusting soul he was, becaise like you he was"becoming more "thai" - but [he] I just found that it makes things easier", was not to be.

Hope this helps. Good luck! Chokdee...