Scotland's first minister Sturgeon faces resignation call amid row with predecessor

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

You will be liable for the debt under international law. It's not a case of you accepting it or not, you're not in such a strong position to dictate such things. You'll take it.

 

 

But you seem to think that Scotland must pay its debts while the other debtors merely pay the interest. That is not the case. If rUK cannot pay back the debt, then Scotland will do the same as rUK - it will service the debt. 

 

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

As for monetary policy you won't be able to adjust interest rates or affect quantitative easing. There are 2 practical examples.

 

 

We cannot do that now. What is the difference?

[RuamRudy]

53 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Bit hard that RR, there can be some justification in some areas.

I was brought up in Moray and that has been a SNP/Tory battle for many years for two main reasons, Kinloss and Lossiemouth. When I was young the population of Forres was only about 4000 and now over 12, similarly Elgin has more than doubled. This higher than average increase was mainly due to service personnel from the 2 military bases retiring in the area. Not your home grown SNP supporters.

In the 2014 referendum it was the prospect of losing the bases that to a certain extent swayed the Moray vote. However with Westminster closing RAF Kinloss the tide has turned and in 2019 the SNP vote was up by over 5% with the Tories barely hanging on. Every chance the seat will go to the SNP this time round.

 

I agree that there are some people, especially in rural communities, with whom conservatism chimed in the past. They packaged and sold the Great British concept very nicely for a number of years. And I am sure that there are still some decent, honest and well meaning tory voters. But when you look at how the party behaves towards the poor; how the country has fallen so low at their hands; it beggars belief that they can still be popular. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, englishoak said:

 

Im sure that will be NS prime directive and game plan , to ignore, bluster, silence questions and continue on trying to keep her seat of power as head. Problem is its not the party or its message but the leadership that is what I see as the problem. 

 

IF there is no other answer to the leadership than a corrupt and if i may say, apparently a very vindictive and dishonest one too where does that leave the SNP other than with a major issue of trust and dis/honesty ? do you really think most Scots dont care about that ? Most I know most certainly do... Scottish pride isnt a small thing in my experience... the price might for many nationalists be acceptable  but for the majority ? I think thats not  so certain. 

 

You must realise Westminster will make the most of this and the longer its left to fester the more it will have an impact. I can only get worse for the SNP should they delay or dither from being seen to do the right thing and move on from a clearly flawed and unwillingly accountable leader. This is not a good look and the SNP will only lose from not dealing with  it ASAP and transparently too. 

 

Clean house and get busy with it immediately I suggest would be best, delay and attempt to cover this and I fear it will all collapse in a utter mess. Then Scotland  can kiss any chance of leaving goodbye. Attempting to patch things and muscle through on a message of, independence is more important than honesty and integrity is I think in this current age a HUGE mistake.  Support can  vanish as fast as its rise, just ask Labour ????

 

It must be another to take leadership and the SNP forward not NS or it could utterly destroy all the party has strived for,  I think its that simple.

 

Is NS bigger or more important than the partys credibility  ? than Scotland ? Than anything ? Are the majority Scots really that shallow and willing to reward dishonesty at the highest level, follow, forgive whats looking like a clear liar and one discredited ? Personally I think not.

 

 

You always have to wonder at just how much latitude the electorate will give politicians. I mean, there can be few people who would argue that Johnson is a fit and proper person to be in politics, let alone No. 10, yet there he is. 

 

There are a few things in Sturgeon's favour:

- So far there has been no killer blow that has landed on her (today may change that, of course);

- we are still 8 weeks from the election;

- her performance during the pandemic has been seen as heroic; 

- generally, her popularity remains high;

- there is a perception (how widely held, I don't know) that the level of scrutiny she is getting is unfair;

- her government's performance has been generally positively received up until now;

- she isn't the tory party.

 

All these things may yet see her prevail.

 

I think, for  the SNP, it is too close to the election to try to replace the captain. As long as she doesn't come a cropper in the next few days she will be the best prospect moving on from here, at least until after the election. If she is still tainted by the end of May, then maybe time for her to step aside.  

[JonnyF]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But you seem to think that Scotland must pay its debts while the other debtors merely pay the interest. That is not the case. If rUK cannot pay back the debt, then Scotland will do the same as rUK - it will service the debt. 

 

 

We cannot do that now. What is the difference?

 

What I "seem to think" according to you and what I say are totally different. Scotland will have to pay it's debts when the UK decides it will pay theirs. No say on the matter. Doesn't sound very independent to me. 

 

Still, when you aspire to be lorded over by Brussels maybe Independence is simply a ruse to get away from England, sorry I mean Westminster. 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

What I "seem to think" according to you and what I say are totally different. Scotland will have to pay it's debts when the UK decides it will pay theirs. No say on the matter. Doesn't sound very independent to me. 

 

Still, when you aspire to be lorded over by Brussels maybe Independence is simply a ruse to get away from England, sorry I mean Westminster. 

 

Exactly - and the UK has debts of 2.5 trillion pound and rising by £5k a second. I think we have nothing to fear in rUK finding a wedge down the back of the couch!! 

[JonnyF]

35 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You are correct that there is an issue with trying to use Scottish issued STERLING bank notes. If we gain our independence then there will be, I presume a period where they will be exchanged by the Scottish government for English bank notes. Within Scotland they would have parity with English notes; outwith Scotland it would be advisable to convert them to English notes for the interim period while a Scottish currency is being set up. Again, hardly a reason to remain in an unsatisfactory situation. 

A lot of assumptions there. If I was you, I'd stick to arguing the case on internet forums and answering Yes to pollsters in Tesco car park. 

 

When it matters, vote No like 55% did it 2014.

Edited March 3, 2021 by JonnyF

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Exactly - and the UK has debts of 2.5 trillion pound and rising by £5k a second. I think we have nothing to fear in rUK finding a wedge down the back of the couch!! 

I'd be more concerned about Scotland servicing their share (when the UK tells them they will) with no trade deals, no subsidies and no control over their currency.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Somewhat predictable.

 

However the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and as you have seen, is more than capable of striking trade deals very quickly. Leaving the EU is far less problematic than leaving the UK since the EU is essentially a trading bloc (for now) and we never joined the Euro. Plus the EU is not a country, with all that entails.

 

If you think Scotland leaving the UK will be as easy, think again. 

 

Oh yeah the UK holds all the cards. Where have I heard that before.

Scotland, given all the resources it has will be just fine. You guys with your eye watering levels of debt and expenditure probably not so much. 

[Rookiescot]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

What I "seem to think" according to you and what I say are totally different. Scotland will have to pay it's debts when the UK decides it will pay theirs. No say on the matter. Doesn't sound very independent to me. 

 

Still, when you aspire to be lorded over by Brussels maybe Independence is simply a ruse to get away from England, sorry I mean Westminster. 

 

Scotland has no debt. Its the UK's debt.

Scotland holds all the cards.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

You will be liable for the debt under international law. It's not a case of you accepting it or not, you're not in such a strong position to dictate such things. You'll take it.

 

As for monetary policy you won't be able to adjust interest rates or affect quantitative easing. There are 2 practical examples.

 

 

What international law?

Did it apply to all the other countries who left the empire?

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I think you are being very unfair there. Any Brit who has travelled abroad must have surely heard so many times people talking of the English pound, the English government, the Queen of England etc. It is a common generalisation to conflate England and the UK - and not only amongst foreigners. To suggest that this was the result of anti-English prejudice or bigotry is ridiculous. It is simply playing the victim card. 

 

Disagree - the pound and gov are normally referred to as British and of course ER is the Queen of the United Kingdom but I know certain foreigners seem to refer to HM as the Queen of England - not anyone's fault except theirs. But 555 has a history of continually trying to smear the English at any imaginary opportunity. 

 

I see Stir gin is on the TV again now - spluttering out of the water again.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Well I'm going out for lunch but we will find out later today what has happened hopefully.

If I had to guess I would put store in what Salmond keeps saying. He keeps accusing Sturgeon of a "Lack of leadership". At no point has he said anything like "Sturgeon tried to get me prosecuted".

So I suspect what has happened is others in or close to the Scottish government/SNP will be the ones holding the poisoned chalice.

Now either Sturgeon throws these people under a bus or she tries to protect them and shoulder some of the blame herself.

Either way I suspect her position is now so compromised she will have to resign.

 

 

Maybe she should take the bus instead.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

Disagree - the pound and gov are normally referred to as British and of course ER is the Queen of the United Kingdom but I know certain foreigners seem to refer to HM as the Queen of England - not anyone's fault except theirs. But 555 has a history of continually trying to smear the English at any imaginary opportunity. 

 

I see Stir gin is on the TV again now - spluttering out of the water again.

 

My point was not one that has a black or white answer. It is based upon experience - possibly I am more attuned to it than you? 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

 

Maybe she should take the bus instead.

 

They could use the one with 350 million written on the side of it.

Been gathering dust since 2016 that has.

[mommysboy]

My guess is that this inquiry will stop just short of deciding she broke ministerial code, but will be deeply scathing in most other aspects.  She will survive but for how long is anybody's guess.  Extremely damaging for both her and the SNP, as well as the Scottish Constitution.  I doubt the matter will end here.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

My point was not one that has a black or white answer. It is based upon experience - possibly I am more attuned to it than you? 

 

Unlikely. ????

[stuandjulie]

10 hours ago, david555 said:

Seems the English really shxxng their pants for that referendum ....putting their backroom dark forces at work ...

.

 

Yes, by using another from the Scottish Independence party to do their dirty work. <deleted> behave

 

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

They could use the one with 350 million written on the side of it.

Been gathering dust since 2016 that has.

 

I heard Boris was organizing a George Medal, respray, full service, new tyres and a summer Euro road trip in it with Cliff and The Shadows! 

 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

My guess is that this inquiry will stop just short of deciding she broke ministerial code, but will be deeply scathing in most other aspects.  She will survive but for how long is anybody's guess.  Extremely damaging for both her and the SNP, as well as the Scottish Constitution.  I doubt the matter will end here.

 

I don't want to pre-empt the outcome of the investigation, but if there is evidence of wrongdoing on anyone's part then I hope that they will be held fully accountable, including the FM. If we aspire to make a better country, we need to have leaders who are above reproach, and systems in place to ensure that wrong doing is found out. 

[shy coconut]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Somebody has woken up to the fact that Sturgeon is gaining support for Scottish Independence and might just pull it of

Not sure why my post is in the form of reply to your post, so I do apologise.....

 

Anyway I am currently watching Nicola's evidence presentation and don't really understand 

why the BBC are making such a big deal about this.

 

It seems that she may well have technically made a few procedural mistakes, but don't , so far

see anything that would warrant resignation. Her prepared statement was, as expected by someone 

used to this , assured and competent. The questions from the floor don't seem to be the sort 

to place her position in any kind of danger.

 

 

It really is quite a dull affair so far with no sensational allegations or revelations.

 

Salmond appears to be on a vindictive journey with no apparent goal, and for someone who 

has had a lifetime commitment to independence, his actions surely only put that goal in jeopardy.

 

His reputation is already shot, regardless of previous court rulings, the accusations alone have 

caused irreparable damage to him, so I don't really understand his motives here.

 

For the record, I am an Englishman who's UK residence is in the Highlands, so I am not 

a person who has a lifetime dream of independence, but wouldn't up sticks and move south 

if it were to happen.

 

[adammike]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I don't want to pre-empt the outcome of the investigation, but if there is evidence of wrongdoing on anyone's part then I hope that they will be held fully accountable, including the FM. If we aspire to make a better country, we need to have leaders who are above reproach, and systems in place to ensure that wrong doing is found out. 

One rule for Westminster and one for Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland then.

[adammike]

3 minutes ago, shy coconut said:

Not sure why my post is in the form of reply to your post, so I do apologise.....

 

Anyway I am currently watching Nicola's evidence presentation and don't really understand 

why the BBC are making such a big deal about this.

 

It seems that she may well have technically made a few procedural mistakes, but don't , so far

see anything that would warrant resignation. Her prepared statement was, as expected by someone 

used to this , assured and competent. The questions from the floor don't seem to be the sort 

to place her position in any kind of danger.

 

 

It really is quite a dull affair so far with no sensational allegations or revelations.

 

Salmond appears to be on a vindictive journey with no apparent goal, and for someone who 

has had a lifetime commitment to independence, his actions surely only put that goal in jeopardy.

 

His reputation is already shot, regardless of previous court rulings, the accusations alone have 

caused irreparable damage to him, so I don't really understand his motives here.

 

For the record, I am an Englishman who's UK residence is in the Highlands, so I am not 

a person who has a lifetime dream of independence, but wouldn't up sticks and move south 

if it were to happen.

 

My guess is that he's seriously bitter and twisted because they were prepared to let him go to jail,maybe actually tried to facilitate it.Though that may be hard to prove.His career is long gone and his chance to earn money on the after dinner speech circuit,paid to sit on board's of banks etc is a no no.He is going to make them suffer at any cost.

[herfiehandbag]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Once we are independent we can sort out our political institutions and dispel with the villains of the piece. 

The villains of the piece have it seems sufficient of a stranglehold on your political institutions to have traduced them to serve their own political ends. That is what the whole scandal is about. Do you really think that if you achieve independence, (and they will be the people running the party which will be running things) you can sort out your political institutions?

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, englishoak said:

SNP should not waste any more time on her and throw her under the bus without hesitation....

On the contrary, englishoak, I should imagine even now Ms Sturgeon is down at the Hollyrood Bus Depot, doing her very best "Blakey" impressions:

" Butler, get that bus moving, anyone stands in your way run over them..."

 

She is too close to complete power, in the form of independence and consequently forming a government to allow anything to get in her way.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, herfiehandbag said:

The villains of the piece have it seems sufficient of a stranglehold on your political institutions to have traduced them to serve their own political ends. That is what the whole scandal is about. Do you really think that if you achieve independence, (and they will be the people running the party which will be running things) you can sort out your political institutions?

 

Has anyone been found guilty of anything yet? I don't know about you, but I prefer to wait for judgement before passing sentence.

 

But do you really think that the SNP will still be in existence after independence? As political parties go, there can be few as broad in terms of the political perspectives of its members. They encompass the right and the left, united in a common goal of independence. 

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It's going to be amusing to see Sturgeon squirming as she gives evidence, but if nothing else she is a very accomplished liar so it wouldn't surprise me to see her continue to pull the wool over the eyes of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people.

 

Let's hope the truth comes out. The coverup has gone on long enough and is dragging the good name of UK politics through the mud. If this debacle is the result of devolution, maybe Boris was correct all along. It's become embarrassing at this point and the Scottish people deserve better than this from their leaders. Much better. 

In the extremely unlikely scenario of scotland voting for independence,can,t see this fiasco helping their chances of gaining membership to the eu..

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Has anyone been found guilty of anything yet? I don't know about you, but I prefer to wait for judgement before passing sentence.

 

But do you really think that the SNP will still be in existence after independence? As political parties go, there can be few as broad in terms of the political perspectives of its members. They encompass the right and the left, united in a common goal of independence. 

 

Hey they all had Salmond guilty even before the trial. After he was acquitted they still screamed guilty.

Now they are the champions of his cause?

Aye right. If Sturgeon resigns (not likely given her performance today) they will now be in a position to declare them both guilty of something, anything, whatever they can think of because it suits their agenda.

Of course scandals in Westminster involving Johnson and his cabinet will be dismissed. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

In the extremely unlikely scenario of scotland voting for independence,can,t see this fiasco helping their chances of gaining membership to the eu..

 

The EU would say yes just to annoy Brexiteers.

[kingdong]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

The EU would say yes just to annoy Brexiteers.

 

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Like they did when they took on all the bankrupt banana republics,backfired on them though dudn,t it ?

[Rookiescot]

Just now, kingdong said:

 

Like they did when they took on all the bankrupt banana republics,backfired on them though dudn,t it ?

 

Did it?

Those "banana republics" now have far more international clout as part of the EU than the UK does out of it.

Some would argue that the UK is now a banana republic. Although given we we still have an unelected head of state I suppose the correct term would be banana kingdom.